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Post by Bullshop on Mar 13, 2024 14:57:22 GMT -7
I think that for those of us that were not born rich with the inflationary times we are in must now pay closer attention to prices of the things we consume. Here in the BPCR sub forum that would certainly include the price of black powder and black powder substitutes. Since I shoot quite a bit of BPC rifles but almost all for my own fun and near zero for competition I feel that perhaps I dont need what is usually considered best Swiss black powder and that my needs and requirements can be filled nicely with something less than the most expensive BP. A case in point is with a customer that ordered 12 boxes 0f 45-90 ammo. He was fairly insistent that I use Swiss powder for his ammo because the Swiss powder burned cleaner than other powders. I told him I did not use Swiss powder but that I would guarantee that by using a duplex load I could load him ammo that would shoot cleaner than any load using straight Swiss powder. He decided to go with my guarantee . What I loaded for him was the cheapest black powder on the market Graffs and Sons powder.
A couple weeks after delivery of his ammo he contacted me and said I was right that the ammo was very accurate and burned cleaner than anything else he had tried and he placed an order for another 12 boxes of the same. For the purists here duplexing was standard practice for BP target shooters as soon as smokeless and semi smokeless powders came available. So did he need Swiss powder ?
In a recent test I did going still further into the cheaper side I decided to test some of the Schuetzen brand re-enactment black powder. I added a couple pounds in a case ordered of FG and FFG just because my curiosity had to be scratched. I have now tried it in two Sharps rifles a 45-90 and a 50-70. Both rifles produced their normal level of accuracy using straight black powder loads. The straight BP loads required blow tubing to keep shooting well for long strings. Shooting a duplex load shot clean as usual and long strings could be fired withing wiping the bore. What we are looking at here is a substantial price difference with Swiss at $38.99 per pound and the Schuetzen re-enactor powder at $19.59 per pound.
Pouring out the powder for a visual inspection what it looks like is a mix of FG and FFG granulation, not a horrible thing. Maybe if someone is involved with high level competition they would want every advantage and nothing but the best but for folks like me just out burning powder and making smoke and still staying within normal accuracy standards for the purpose what it amounts to is twice the shooting at the same price, also a good thing.
The retail price for some powders at Graffs is,
Graffs FFG- $25.60 Swiss 1 1/2 $38.99 Schuetzen re-enactor $19.59
Pyrodex RS $26.19 Hodgdens Tripple 7 $37.99
Note that the Graffs powders and the Schuetzen powders are made by Wano After making this simple comparison and with the shooting results I think I will order a case of the re-enactors powder. If time and weather permits I would like to do some side by side chrono-graphing with other powders in both cartridge rifles as well as ML rifles. That should prove interesting. I just loaded a couple boxes of 45-90 with a good long range bullet and the re-enactor powder and hope to when things dry up a little go to my favorite long range site and set targets to between 500 and 700 yards and see how this less than the best powder holds up for that type of shooting. Maybe not the best for all BP shooting but certainly has its place with informal target shooting and hunting.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 14, 2024 9:30:20 GMT -7
i shoot Goex 2 FFG in a flintlock CVA Hawken and a inline TC Encore in 50 cal. i think i only 2 lbs of it left. i don't shoot them quite often, so i'm good for years. Grafs is cheap, so that is the brand i will go to . i shoot Goex in the inline because Hogden got too expensive for BP pellets. i tried using Pyrodex powder but it didn't get the accuracy.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 14, 2024 12:13:06 GMT -7
Something I learned about Pyrodex RS in cartridge or ML is that it needs substantial compression to produce its best accuracy. I have never used the Pyrodex Select grade because I think it is just a more expensive RS for people that feel if they pay more it is better.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 14, 2024 20:38:39 GMT -7
I tried Pyrodex shortly after buying my first .50 T/C Hawken caplock ML. After shooting it, I cleaned it the same way that I cleaned all of my BP firearms, & coated the barrel with T/C yellow bore butter & put it away. A few months later, I decided to take it out & shoot it. I ran a clean patch thru the barrel to clean out the bore butter, & had rust on the patch. Once more on an old original Remington c&b .44, & a short time later, it also showed rust. I took the remaining Pyrodex out in the yard & scattered it to the wind. I will never use substitute foe BP again. Just my experience with it.
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Post by missionary on Mar 15, 2024 3:50:31 GMT -7
Only barrel I use Pyro in is our 1.1" signal gun. I can look down into it after 3x hot water cleaning. And next day and next day as I wash and oil that nasty corrosive stuff out. But at 300 grain charges, it only cost $1 a pound 30 years back. A Target store was getting out of BP and had a big sale. Bought all the Pyro, percussion caps and a TC Hawken .50 for just over $100. I think I have 3-4 pounds yet to consume.
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Post by missionary on Mar 16, 2024 3:52:14 GMT -7
So back to the "less than the best BP". Thank you Dan for another helpful venture into powder value. I personally have never had any other BP up north there than Goex. It has always worked well. It may be a might slower in velocity than some of the other higher priced brands. But then, so what. Never popped a corn cruncher using Goex than 5% more velocity would have terminated it faster. Plus it is a simple task to use Goex 3F in lesser quantity and finding it burns much cleaner.
I have not bought any BP in 5 years. Every time we came north there seemed to be none to find or some fire / explosion at the plant. But I suspect when it comes time to resupply my little stock I will also buy what is affordable and add some 3F first to get things cooking. I do have a can of F Goex that I occasionally burn but adding 5 grains of 3F first to keep the crud manageable. Have to try it in a cartridge some day.
Historically there were BP power testers located around areas. A pistol type contraption that registered the amount of force a certain powder of measured quantity moved a lever. Thus a barrel of powder could be qualified as to power fairly accurately. Muzzle loaders added or subtracted quantity. Cartridge shooters had to use a finer or coarser powder. But it all works out.
Whatever it takes to get the correct velocity that the barrel harmonics likes to sling the projectile consistently downrange. So if I can save 35% in value with each shot, as old Mr. Franklin wrote," A penny saved is a penny earned". Plus I get no happy heart feelings using anything that costs more and delivers very little to my personal enjoyment.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 16, 2024 8:05:10 GMT -7
After the fire at the goex plant and the subsequent announcement of shut down they were bombarded with input from users to continue production. As I understand it goex is again available but is being manufactured by wano the same company that is making Graffs powder and I believe Schuetzen powder as well. All three are priced differently but are they different ?
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 16, 2024 9:21:41 GMT -7
Goex was the only black powder i used, besides the Pyrodex. Old Eynsford BP (i think Goex made it as well) was too expensive and rare. Swiss BP is rarer still. we (sorry Dad, RIP) or i use 2F Goex in the barrel and for ignition it is 4F Goex. i had an old can (white with black lettering) of 4F Goex that i used up 3 years ago. 4 or 5 years (maybe more) ago, i bought a can of 4F and 2F (2 or 3 cans?) Goex and i hope that i have it for life.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 16, 2024 12:23:10 GMT -7
An avid BPC competitor can easily burn a couple cases a year. Most BP cartridges will use upwards of 70 grain weight charge per shot and that is only 100 shots per pound. Most competitors will shoot that many at a match with practice and score shots combined. Add in practice during the week and you are burning a couple pounds per week. There are 52 weeks in a year so at two pounds per week that is 104 pounds per year. At 25 pounds per case that is four cases per year. If your a steady user it dont take long to burn a case of BP.
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Post by missionary on Mar 17, 2024 10:20:45 GMT -7
That is for sure. Fellers that got me interested in Cartridges would drive down to Friendship during the spring and fall shoots and buy as much as they could afford. I do not remember if there was a 50 pound daily limit that one person could purchase. But they always had plenty for little time shooters like me to buy 5 pounds here and there. I am going to pursue making my own in AZ. Time I will have. $$ will be the real factor to deal with. And I do enjoy a morning making booming noises.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 17, 2024 18:20:09 GMT -7
I thought about making BP but at less than $20.00 per pound the re-enactor powder is likely better quality than I could make and there is no danger factor as in making powder. Even in making powder there are still ingredients to by unless you go totally primitive. Did you know that in colonial times people kept a piss pot in their house and sold their urine for making potassium nitrate. The term "" didnt have a pot to piss in "" meant that you were so poor you didnt even have a urine receptacle so you couldnt even make a little money selling your pee. I guess they didnt have empty beer cans along their roads.
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Post by missionary on Mar 18, 2024 5:07:09 GMT -7
I have read that also. The "buyers" had long evaporating troughs set up so the "liquid" could evaporate in the air and the residue then scraped off to eventually fill whatever container. Not sure how many gallons would be needed to evaporate for one pound of powder. Empty gallon jugs are not hard to gather today. But that is one item I would purchase.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 18, 2024 7:54:57 GMT -7
Pure potassium nitrate is available from hardware stores sold as a stump remover. It is something I have looked into for making nitrated paper for paper cartridge guns such as the early percussion Sharps rifles. Nitrated paper is completely consumed so there is nothing left to act as a potential barrel obstruction.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 18, 2024 9:55:12 GMT -7
the way i have to the bathroom at night would make me a millionaire!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 18, 2024 12:12:22 GMT -7
Maybe the beer industry is investing in BP stocks.
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Post by missionary on Mar 18, 2024 13:51:22 GMT -7
I do remember reading about "stump remover" for that ingredient. I used some years back on an ornamental hedge row that was half filled with elm sprouts. It was a lousy ugly mess not taken care of so I set in. It was a home the owner permitted us to live in for 4 furloughs. Took days to get only 1/2 the way along it. Working 1 day a week for 3 months. Used large brush wackers to get it cut down to ground lever. Do a 3 foot section then paint on the goop. It did a great job on what got cut and painted. Then came the cold and back to Peru we came. Next furlough 2 years later no one had cut that hedge so it was right back to the same ugly mess. But the part I "gooped" was reasonable clean of the elms.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 19, 2024 21:20:16 GMT -7
Today I was shooting a 58 caliber Remington Zoave using Pyrodex RS powder. I was trying a couple new things in it including bullets from a very interesting mold I picked up about a year ago at a gun show as well as a new front sight I found at Dixie gun works. The sight is a copy of a cross hair front sight that was used on Confederate Enfield rifles. This copy is very similar to what is on a Springfield trapdoor rifles I have but on that rifle the sight seems a bit more stout and is likely an original. Anyway this copy is a great sight that helps greatly in keeping vertical dispersion on target at a minimum.
The bullets used are from a custom mold made on Lyman blank blocks with no markings other than the Lyman code numbers for blank blocks. It casts a smooth sided bullet without lube grooves is plain base and round nose. It looks like the original bullet for the Snider conversion rifles but it is plain base not hollow base as was the Snider bullet. I had some doubt that it would shoot well in the very slow something around 66" twist of these rifles but now having tried it in the Remington Zoave muzzleloading rifle as well as an original Snider infantry long rifle I found my fear to be unfounded as both rifles shoot it quite well grouping well at 100 yards and making perfectly round holes in paper. I used it with a conventional two wrap paper patch in the Enfield Snider conversion but in the Zoave since it has a slightly tighter bore I used a cross patch set on the muzzle and pushed down with the bullet. With the cross patch there is only one thickness of paper between bullet and barrel but with the conventional two wrap patch there is a double thickness of paper. The cross patch seemed about perfect for the muzzleloader using about a .0025" thick cotton fiber paper.
I was shooting Pyrodex RS powder and having some small issue with hang fires. I had been making no attempt to compress the powder before loading the bullet but once I started doing that the hang fires ended. Before I was pouring in the powder and seating the patched bullet without trying to tamp on the bullet so as not to distort the soft lead bullet. That was giving me hang fires. Knowing the Pyrodex works much better in cartridge guns with heavy compression what I started doing was to put a wad on the powder then tamping the powder until the loading rod would bounce then with the powder compressed somewhat loading the patched bullet this change in procedure ended the hang fires.
This whole episode got me to thinking about weight to volume between Pyrodex RS and FFG black powder. After I came in from shooting since Pyrodex was in my powder drop after loading some 50-70 ammo I decided to weigh an equal volume of Pyrodex and some Graffs FFG that was sitting handily near by. With the large hopper in my RCBS powder drop full open it drops the perfect volume of powder for a 50-70 case which is just slightly under flush with the case mouth. After vibrating the filled case and compressing the powder with a thin over powder wad in go the bullets in unsized cases then a very light crimp applied to just keep the bullets from falling out. I am using a .507" pure lead bullet intended for 50 cal ML rifles but I like the bullet design and weight and it shoots good from my rifle. So much for the myth of bullets having to be larger than groove diameter to be accurate! I am loading these at .507" because that is what they drop from the mold. They have to be sized down to .504" or smaller to load in a ML rifle so at .507" they are closer to groove in my cartridge rifle than they would be in a ML rifle with the same barrel dimensions, but I digress.
Anyway with the powder drop set full out the Pyrodex actual weight a 47.3gn and with the Graffs FFG the same volume actual weight was 67.3 grain. This is why I believe Pyrodex needs to be heavily compressed because it is such a lofty powder that without heavy compression you cant get enough weight in a case for cartridge loading and as I found today without compression consistent ignition is iffy in a ML rifle. So that was my after work project for today and it was rewarding. I found that the cross patch shot well in the Zoave rifle and I learned if I will use Pyrodex in a ML rifle the loading procedure must include compressing the powder. I like to feel that at the end of each day that I have learned something or that in some way have made some small gain. By that standard today was a good day!
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Post by missionary on Mar 20, 2024 3:46:20 GMT -7
And do remember for the next three days be attentive to that barrel. Pryro likes to get well situated in the groove corners and cause issues.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 20, 2024 7:57:59 GMT -7
I was once told that Pyrodex leaves an alkaline residue so when I clean after using it I start with vinegar to neutralize the alkaline. Then after that do a regular cleaning with solvent and rust preventative. I do keep a close eye on barrels afterward but this cleaning method seems to prevent any problems.
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Post by missionary on Mar 20, 2024 9:57:54 GMT -7
I need to write down the vinegar treatment. That would be some more good knowledge. Thank you.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 20, 2024 14:36:39 GMT -7
Mike, I'll bet that our friend Daniel wears a very large sized hat, because he has to have a big head to hold all of the knowledge that he has acquired thru the years.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 20, 2024 15:33:27 GMT -7
Gary its more like a micro chip.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 21, 2024 10:09:42 GMT -7
i got a mini post page wrote in crayon with big letters.
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