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Post by grasshopper on Oct 24, 2023 2:22:04 GMT -7
Hello all, just thought I would take a minute to share my yard sale find from this past weekend. As stated I happened to stop at a yard sale that was only a couple of miles from the house. I’m not really sure why I stopped but I’m sure glad that I did! Looking around at all the different things laid out I didn’t really see anything that I couldn’t live without so I asked the elderly lady that seemed to be in charge if she happened to have any hunting or fishing items. I’m always looking for a set of dies I don’t have or an extra set if they are cheap enough. She thought about it for a few minutes and said I have an old rifle out in the shed where the mower is but I don’t think it’s in very good shape. She went on to tell me the rifle belonged to her grandfather. I asked if I could look at it and she seemed a little reluctant and said again it’s really not in good shape. I just smiled and said yes ma’am. She went and retrieved the rifle and she wasn’t wrong it wasn’t too pretty at least to most but I fell in love. It’s a pre war Obendorf Mauser made by JP Sauer in 7x65. The outside metal had a cinnamon like layer of rust all over it and the stock was almost black from dirt, oil, time and neglect. I took the bolt out to look at the bore not expecting too much. Too my surprise the bore was exceptionaly good! It was dirty for sure but the owner took care of the bore anyway, as long as that was good I could fix anything else. I asked her what she wanted for it and she said $50, I said no ma’am I think it’s worth more than that how about $100? She said that was fine. I was also happy it hadn’t been drilled and tapped for a scope but it does have a marbles receiver sight and on the rib has three folding leaves. She also had a partial box of Kynoch ammo. Looking up the 7x65 looks like a euro version of the 30-06 but hopefully you guys can tell me more. I have high hope for this rifle and once I get it cleaned and looking like I want I’ll do my best to post some before and after pics!
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Post by lkydvl on Oct 24, 2023 8:16:28 GMT -7
Wilhelm Brenneke designed his 7x64mm rifle cartridge in Germany in 1917. This is a rimless, bottleneck cartridge designed for use in bolt action magazine rifles. It's appearance, case capacity and basic performance are similar to that of the .280 Remington. The 7.65R is simply a rimmed version of the cartridge for use in single shot rifles and drillings.
The 7x64 is a versatile cartridge. Like the .280, it uses standard 7mm (.284") bullets. A reasonable number of factory loads for the 7x64 are offered in North America, and a large selection of 7mm bullets are available to the reloader.
As this is written, the Shooters Bible lists 7x64 factory loads from Federal, PMC, Remington, and Speer among US ammo companies. In addition, Norma and Sako factory loads are imported into the U.S. from Europe.
Federal offers a premium 160 grain Nosler Partition bullet at a MV of 2650 fps with 2495 ft. lbs. of ME. The 200 yard figures are 2310 fps and 1895 ft. lbs.
Remington offers a 7x64 factory load using a 175 grain PSP Core-Lokt bullet at a MV of 2650 fps with 2728 ft. lbs. of ME. The 200 yard figures are 2248 fps and 1964 ft. lbs.
The reloader with a 7x64 rifle can approximate these factory loads and has access to a wider range of bullet weights. Of particular interest are the 139-145 grain bullets, which are an excellent choice in any 7mm rifle. Data from Hornady suggests that 49.3 grains of IMR 4350 powder will drive a 139 grain bullet to a MV of 2600 fps, and 54.7 grains of IMR 4350 will give a MV of 3000 fps.
Also according to Hornady reloading data, their 154 grain bullet can be driven to a MV of 2500 fps by 46.9 grains of IMR 4350 powder, and 2900 fps by 52.9 grains of IMR 4350. A Hornady Spire Point Interlock bullet at 2800 fps would have the following trajectory (Hornady figures): +1.9" at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -8.3" at 300 yards.
7x64mm Brenneke Ballistics
Ballistics and Drop for the 7x64mm Brenneke
7x64mm-brenneke
Cartridge Type: Rifle
Height: 2.51"
Width: 0.47"
Average FPS: 2818
Average Energy: 2662
Average Gr: 151
Recoil: 1.85
Power Rank: 4.26 of 20
The 7x64mm (unofficially known as the 7x64 Brenneke) was designed in 1917 by Wilhelm Brenneke (1865-1951) of Germany. The parent case is the 8x64mm S with a narrowed neck to fit a .285 inch bullet on a .313 inch neck. The case is a rimless, bottleneck with a 1:8.66 twist and a large rifle primer. The case length is 2.52 inches with overall length of 3.307 inches and can fit a maximum load of 69 grains.
The ballistic performances based off three grain types for muzzle velocity on the 7x64 Brenneke are 3,000 ft/s (123 gr SP), 2,900 ft/s (154 gr SP), and 2,700 ft/s (174 gr SP.) The 7x64mm was a commercial success after it went onto the public market in 1917 due to its ability to achieve up to 12-percent more muzzle velocity over the 7x57mm with a flatter trajectory and better long range shooting performance.
Hand loading brass is available in a variety of loads for the 7x64 Brenneke. Hornady reloading data states a 154 grain bullet has 2,500 ft/s muzzle velocity with 46.9 grains of IMR-4350 powder, and 2,900 ft/s with 52.9 grains of IMR-4350 powder. The 7x64 has a typical drop-off in trajectory and wound performance at a distance of approximately 235 yards before noticeable down scaling occurs.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 24, 2023 15:20:07 GMT -7
Congrats my Friend. You did an honorable thing with that rifle owner but knowing you well I would expect nothing less. I right away after reading of your acquisition had to look in John Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions to see how dificult it will be to come up with brass for your 7x64 and find that it will be no problem at all. This is what the book says,
Make from 30-06 spgf FL size in 7x64 Brenneke die. Watch headspace! Square case mouth. This case will be slightly short but otherwise fine.
That is good news. Enjoy that rifle !
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 24, 2023 15:33:28 GMT -7
Thanks pard! I saw the same as far as using 06 brass and also saw ballistics are comparable to 308 and Norma apparently still loads it. Norma is my favorite factory ammo but when you find it seems to always be expensive. I was so happy for your harvest although I thought it was a little mean to make my stomach growl so loud!😂 I hope you guys enjoy it and I also hope it makes the coming winter a little less stressful.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 24, 2023 15:44:09 GMT -7
OK so I just looked at the book from George Nonte on cartridge conversion and he adds a little helpful information. He says,
Make from 30-06 Expand neck to 35 caliber, run into 7x57 die until the bolt just closes.
Since the other book had a warning to "" watch headspace "" I think what Nonte is doing by saying to first neck up to 35 caliber is setting a secondary shoulder farther forward to properly headspace on to fire form brass. I think necking to 32 cal 8mm will suffice and may be easier to do with a set of 8x57 dies. I would start by first annealing the case necks then bevel the inside edge of the case mouth then inside lube the case necks with a cleaning brush with case lube on it. I promis those steps will greatly reduce case loss due to necks splitting.
I anneal the case necks by setting the case in a shallow pan of water just deep enough to have the solid section of the case head in water. Then with a small canister of propane and GP nozel train the flame on one side of the neck for 7 seconds then the same on the other side. If the neck begins to glow before 7 seconds its ready. With both sides done then tip the case over into the water to cool. Remove from the water and let dry and it is ready to be necked up.
I like the Nonte method better because it eliminates any possibility of excessive headspace.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 24, 2023 16:48:49 GMT -7
Thanks for the info pard! I will try this for sure and since I already have a set of 8x57 does it will be fairly easy. You should be proud cause how you described annealing the cases is exactly how I do it since you taught me almost 30 years ago now! It will be a bit before I’m ready to load and go to the range. The rifle is going to take a bit to clean up. I really don’t want to “restore” the rifle I just want to clean it up really good and leave as much of the original finish on the metal as I can. The stock is really black with 100 years of oil and dirt. My plan for the stock is just to try and scrape as much of the crud off as I can without any sanding and then put a couple of good coats of danish oil on it. I’ll be sure and keep you posted. As you know it’s amazing how much pride the gunmakers back then took in building guns, there’s no telling how much it would cost to build this rifle today!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 24, 2023 17:12:33 GMT -7
Did I make a mistake ? Just looked at your first post and see it says 7x65 but the info I looked up is for the 7x64 Brenneke
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 24, 2023 21:11:26 GMT -7
No I actually made the mistake or rather when I typed it in the phone or autocorrect put a 5 where I put a 4 or thought I put a 4 anyway. So no your not really going crazy it was my mistake I suppose. Thanks again for all the info I really appreciate it!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 25, 2023 8:19:08 GMT -7
It looks like you can load this 7x64 without the correct loading dies. From what Nonte said it looks like you can use 7x57 dies to neck size cases just be carful to not set the shoulder back after fire formed. For the times when after neck sizing only they are beginning to chamber a bit on the tight side what I do with all cases based on the 30-06 case head is to full length size in a 444 Marlin die. I remove the expander and decap assembly then run the case in the die until the shell holder bumps the die.
The 444 marlin is basically a straight tapered and rimmed 30-06 case so sizing all necked down versions in the 444 die sizes only the head portion of the case where they may have swollen and are now tight at that point. You can likely accomplish about the same thing in a 280 die if you have that but you would still need the 7x57 die to get the proper shoulder diameter for free chambering.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 25, 2023 11:57:14 GMT -7
I have a 7x57 die but I do not have a 444 die, I’ll have to try and find one now, thanks for all the help and info my friend! I’m motivated now to get it all done to see how it fires. I did go ahead and scrub the bore super good and then used some JB bore paste to really get it clean and shiny, it’s funny that paste sure does last I’ve had the same bottle for almost 30 years now!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 25, 2023 15:12:18 GMT -7
I bet it will still shoot beyond expectations. Those old rifles were crafted not just punched out. I have one Obendorf Mauser that I know you would appreciate. Its a 1917 marked receiver custom built sometime during the great depression into a full blown bench rifle typical for competition of the time. It has several Griffen & Howe parts so could have been built by them. It has a Griffen & Howe barrel harmonics device I have never seen before this one. It is in a straight line stock without drop and is made of laminated hardwoods. It is chambered for the 250-3000 Savage which at the time was a well accepted BR chambering. You have to remember that this rifle was before even the 219 Donaldson came out and its competition was from cartridges like the 25-20 single shot and 22-3000 Lovell. It is a most interesting rifle well crafted still in perfect condition and shoots amazingly well.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 26, 2023 8:56:53 GMT -7
That rifle sounds like fun and really interesting! What type of harmonic device is it? I’m guess it’s actually on the barrel itself? When you saw benchrest are you talking like 12lbs plus maybe? I didn’t know the 250/3000 was earlier than the wasp! Good stuff!!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 26, 2023 11:00:45 GMT -7
I believe the 250-3000 Savage came out in 1915 the year my Dad was bourn. The 219 Donaldson was about the time we got involved in WW-2. It was very likely the Donaldson cartridge that dethroned the 250 Savage, that and the 22-3000 Lovell. The Donaldson reigned supreme until Rem came out with the 222 in about 1950 and the 222 pretty much carried the field until the PPC cartridges came out in 1974.
On my Obendorf rifle the barrel harmonics device is stamped as made by Griffen & Howe. It is a steel ring set in the stock in which the barrel passes through. At four evenly spaced points around the barrel two above and two below are spring loaded detents that are each adjustable to set a pre-load pressure amount at each contact point on the barrel. I can see and understand its basic function but have not used it enough to understand all its possible affects on barrel harmonics and its effect on POI. All I have done with it is to turn each adjustor out to zero pressure then turn each one in the same number of clicks that are built into the system to apply an equal amount of pressure at each barrel contact point. The number of possible adjustments are infinite and will take a very long time to master its usefulness.
The barrel contour is probably something between heavy sporter and bull and long but I cant at the moment remember if its 26" or 28". If you have a copy of Phill Sharps loading book you will have seen pictures very similar to what my rifle looks like but this rifle lacks the muzzle break Sharp liked to use. I believe this rifle was at its time cutting edge for top BR accuracy. It appears to have a fairly slow twist that seems to prefer bullets in the 75 to 85 grain weight range. The laminate stock is quite heavy as is the entire rifle but it is not intended for packing but purpose built for resting. Makes a heck of a gopher gun for use from a stationary position. As with most target rifles of the time it has double set triggers.
Its not even close to being in the BR game today but it will shoot in the .3'S to .4's without a whole lot of fuss.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 26, 2023 11:18:03 GMT -7
Sounds like it might be a great reapers roost rifle! Haven’t heard any exploits from there in a while. Your rifle sounds interesting, I’m trying to picture the device in my head. You say the device is in the stock I think, I’m guessing just forward of the action? Please correct me if I’m wrong you won’t hurt my feelings I promise but the simple explanation of “accuracy “ is to get the barrel harmonics to repeat of as close to the same for each shot and once you get it as close as possible you can adjust for POI? I know there are many other variables but in a nutshell if you can get the barrel to consistently repeat the same harmonics accuracy can be achieved. Is that correct? Thanks pard!!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 26, 2023 12:23:46 GMT -7
You have it about right that accuracy is about repeatability or consistency in all phases of the process from loading the ammo, prepping the rifle and to squeezing the trigger. As for the harmonics device it is set near the fore end tip. I should also have mentioned that the barrel is otherwise free floating. Somewhere on this forum I once posted some pictures of it but I dont know how to go about finding that post.
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