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Post by Bullshop on Jun 5, 2023 18:17:37 GMT -7
I am moving the ongoing trials with the 40-90 bn here because I was causing a thread drift in the thread about testing powders. For anyone that has not been following over there I got this used Sharps in 40-90 bn and was told by the previous owner that it had a 1/18" twist barrel. In testing progressively longer heavier bullets it seemed maybe that was not right as it seemed to be shooting really good with bullets longer than what a 1/18" twist should. I then measured the twist using the cleaning rod method and felt pretty confident that I established the twist is faster at 1/16.5" From everything I have read an 18" twist would be good for bullets up to 1.25" in length. The longest bullet I have tried so far at 100 yards is 1.366" and it was grouping well at 100 yards.
Now we will update to today. Today I took two rifles out and set up a steel gong target at 540 yards. No special reason for 540 its just the distance of my Quigley " about there "" guess and what the laser said when I set up to shoot. I first shot the 38-55 to try to establish another sight setting for the Quigley shoot which is actually 530 yards but I can fine tune that later. Because I have only shot the 40-90 at 100 yards and I figured the trajectory of the two rifles with the same type of loads should be fairly close so I figured what ever the 38-55 worked out to be the same amount of increase should also get me pretty close with the 40-90. Well that assumption turned out to be a wee mite off the mark so I will give the numbers. The 38-55 has a 100 yard zero setting of 105 points and to hit the steel gong at 540 yards had to go to 155 points for an increase of 50 points for the 440 yard range increase. Great so I now have three of five sight settings for the 38-55 at the Quigley. So with that I went to the 40-90. With the 40-90 the 100 yard setting is 120 points. Going with the 50 point increase it took to get the 38-55 one I set the sight on the 40-90 at 170 points. The result of that shot was a bullet impact about ten feet low of the target. Walking the sights up until a hit was made put me at 190 points on the sight staff. I was very surprised with that but continued shooting confirmed that 190 points was the correct setting to hit the 2'x2' gong at 540 yards. Misses were right on the fringes of the target with both rifles. I am still trying to figure out exactly why it took an additional 20 points for the 40 cal so have to ponder all possibilities. The 38 has a 14" twist and the bullet I am shooting is 1.222" in length. The 40 has a 16.5" twist (I think) and the bullet is 1.366" in length but should be well above the minimum rps for full stability.
So one of the things I have to consider is that perhaps my twist measuring was wrong ant the twist is 18" just as the man said. If so the 1.366" bullet may not be fully stabilized and it is showing up as increased drop. At the time I was shooting I didnt think so because I was using the same windage setting for both rifles in about a 15 mph full value wind. If the bullet is not stable it will drop more but it will also drift more. I did the math and came up with the 40 dropping 9 feet more than the 38 at the same range. Nine feet is more than just a little difference. Something else I have considered is the difference in launch speed of the two cartridges. When I was developing the load for the 38 I wanted it to be as close to the speed of sound as possible for the elevation at Forsyth which I calculated to be 1084 fps. I cant seem to put my hands on any chrono data for the load so maybe there isnt any yet but as I recall I was trying for 1100 fps. If that is correct the 38 is going sub sonic very close to the muzzle. My also estimated velocity for the 40 is about 1400 fps so is transitioning to sub sonic closer to half way to the target. For it supersonic flight the lag time is greater than for its subsonic flight. Lag time is the percentage of velocity loss and is what ballistic charts are based on. That is why I wanted my Quigley load to be subsonic for its entire flight because the lag time is reduced. It starts out slower but ends up faster, go figure.
So I dont expect to get much sleep tonight because this will be running through my head trying to figure out why the 40 dropped nine feet more than the 38 at the same range of 540 yards and with the same 50 point increase over each rifles 100 yard zero Now wouldnt it be something if I discover that by reducing the velocity of the 40 I actually tighten that nine foot gap. I really have no way to assign a BC number to each bullet but I assumed that at 330gn for the 38 and 430gn for the 40 that they would be close. Both bullets put a very noticeable from 540 yards swing to the heavy target . I might have to go back to the slightly shorter 40 Gov bullet and see what that does. If there is a slight wobble to the big 40 causing increased drag then going to the shorter bullet may eliminate that wobble and tighten up that nine feet gap between the two cartridges. One thing is for sure though the 38-55 load with 19.7gn of LT-30 is a keeper.
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Post by missionary on Jun 6, 2023 22:23:44 GMT -7
One simple thought... The larger diameter bullet has more air resistance.
Sort of like throwing a hardball or a softball. Initial start speed and weight can be the same but that fatter projectile will hit the dirt closer / sooner.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 7, 2023 8:02:04 GMT -7
That is true Mike but if the BC is the same and the launch speed is the same then the ballistics should also be the same. For the soft ball to equal the hard ball in BC the soft ball would have to be much heavier. Look at the difference in the BC of a ping pong ball compared to a golf ball. Same air resistance but drastically different BC.
I dont know the BC of either bullet used but they both have the same nose shape and the 40 caliber is 100 grains heavier than the 38 which I thought would off set the diameter difference to give both bullets nearly the same BC.
There seems to be something else going on here that perhaps is being demonstrated by an unstable bullet and is what can be predicted by such a condition.
I think what I will have to do is to go back to a bullet length that is calculated to be fully stable in an 18" twist a bullet length of not over 1.25" work up a load to about the same velocity as the big 40 and find its 100 yard zero sight setting. Once I have that then go out to the 540 yard gong again and see what sight setting gets me on at that range with the shorter bullet. If it takes less sight adjustment than with the big 40 then I can assume it is because the big 40 bullet is not being fully stabilized. If unstable in flight then the calculated BC of such a slendedly shaped long bullet will be off because the wobble presents a larger frontal area as well as profile so resistance to forward motion is increased as well as the profile surface area being greater for wind to push against.
I think that is about the only way I can get this figured out because my rifling twist measuring system seems to not be dependable. If I am blessed with time maybe we can get it figured out. This may well turn out to be a vrey good lesson in why testing at 100 yards is not dependable for working out long range loads. For working out long range loads you have to shoot long range.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 7, 2023 19:40:42 GMT -7
Today I had to back up a bit to where I had earlier mentioned that when testing LT-30 loads in the 40-90 and just as I was getting to the point of ballistic uniformity the pure lead I was using for my bullets was failing. I mentioned that I felt that if I had been using something harder than pure lead that I may have gotten different results. Well after todays shooting it turns out that assumption was correct.
Yesterday I had to cast an order for hard bullets so switched over to the hard lead pot. The order was for bullets that would run about BHN-25 after being quench cooled. The alloy air cooled should run about BHN-13 so while it was up and running I cast about 50 bullets with the big forty mold but air cooled them.
I tried them today with the LT-30 powder and the results were astounding. I started a little too high for powder charge not that it was too high pressure to be safe but apparently too high for best accuracy. Slowly working back down in small increments I hit the sweet spot at 21.1gn of LT-30 with a CCI #250 LRM primer and the case filled with PP. My final shots for the day before rain ended testing was so good I wont even say how good but just say if it is repeatable I simply can not fathom that long bullet not being completely stable in flight.
I am so tempted to now try this load at the 540 yard gong to see if drop numbers change at all from the pure lead bullets with the duple load. In his book DR. Mann stated that in his early testing he always got best accuracy with pure lead bullets when using black powder and always got best accuracy with alloyed lead when using smokeless powder. My first testing was with pure lead bullets but I veered somewhat from his absolute with my powder choices. I think from now on I will still use pure lead when looking at loads that may be used for hunting but for accuracy loads maybe alloyed bullets might be best unless as Dr. Mann said straight black powder is used.
Anyway back to my point that was yes LT-30 did work a treat in the 40-90 once the right bullet hardness was found. Chalk up another point for the versatility of LT-30.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 17, 2023 7:55:51 GMT -7
Went out yesterday with the 40-90 and set up the gong at 600 yards. I had intended to try some of the big 40 bullets cast in an alloy of about BHN-13 to see if there would be any change to the sight settings from the last outing that for what ever reason required an additional 20 point elevation adjustment over the 38-55 for the same range. I had thought the trajectories' of the two rifles should be about the same.
Unfortunately I left the box of new ammo sitting on my loading bench so did not accomplish what I had set out to do. I did however have ammo loaded with two other bullets that were well within bullet length limits given as max for a 1/18"twist barrel.
I also forgot the laser so had to estimate the range and going from last weeks 540 yards and being in the same place just guessed at another 60 yards and called it good.
The first step was to shoot the 38-55 with its 330 grain bullet and preferred load with LT-30 powder to establish the elevation increase from its 100 yard zero to be on at 600 yards. The increase was 77 points to get the 38-55 clanging the steel at 600 yards. With that established we pulled out the 40-90 and did the same adding 77 points of elevation to its 100 yard zero. The results had bullet impacts right at the very bottom of the target . Adding another 2 points elevation had us clanging steel.
These results again points in the direction of my rifling measuring being off and is really closer to the 1/18" that the seller said it was and not the 1/16.5" that my poor measuring gave. I really wish I had not forgotten the ammo with the harder alloy in the big 40 bullets because with those if again it required an additional 20 points elevation to get on at 600 yards that would have pretty much been conclusive evidence of the slower twist rate. I am not yet absolutely convinced because last weeks results may possibly been caused by the pure BHN-5 lead used in those bullets. If the results with the same bullet but with more than twice the BHN are the same then I will be certain that the rifling twist rate is likely 1/18" and not the faster 1/16.5" I had hoped for.
Even so though being limited to bullets that will likely be under 400 grains but still matching the trajectory of the 38-55 with its 330 grain bullet we still have pretty good long range potential with the 40-90. Being a ballistics nut or in my case freak may be a more descriptive word I would like to be able to shoot the highest BC bullets for extreme range shooting but I also understand that being limited to the established constraints of the slightly slower 1/18" twist I am not completely out of the game just only slightly handicapped. The less forgiving limitations of the slower twist simply means that to be competitive I have to hone my long range skills at reading conditions to be a better shot.
I remember the one time I shot at the Quigley shoot and when at the longest range at 805 yards at the buffalo a storm that had been approaching finally arrived and kicking up a fierce wind that was tumbling canopies off of vendors row. As my squad moved into position to shoot the buffalo it seemed everyone was bug eyed nervous asking each other how much windage they were going to dial in for the severe condition. The point is only two of us hit it. Those two myself being one had either wildly guessed right or were better shots due to a honed skill and you dear reader can decide which it was.
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Post by grasshopper on Jun 20, 2023 12:34:21 GMT -7
I’ll take honed skill over a wild guess any day of the week and twice on Sunday, thank you very much!!
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 20, 2023 14:29:06 GMT -7
Thanks Rob for your vote of confidence but to be honest I think there may have been a little of both luck and skill involved. The other fella that hit it was using an experimental rifle and bullet. He was shooting a Winchester Hugh wall in 38-55 with a 1/12" twist and an experimental 350 grain sptizer bullet. I was also shooting a spitzer bullet in 45 caliber 485 grain with a 1/18" twist 45-70 barrel. We were the only ones that were able to shoot through the seemingly invisible force field that was moving up the gully between the shooting line and the targets. There was certainly something weird going on because half the shot from other shooters were being sucked down into the gully where we couldn't see any bullet impact and half seemed to be bouncing off something and hitting 30 feet above the target. Maybe those spitzer bullets were able to pierce the invisible obstacle churning up through the gully.
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Post by grasshopper on Jun 22, 2023 1:38:36 GMT -7
No thanks needed my friend! I’m just going off of what I actually know to be pure truth, there’s no way in the world id want anyone but you taking that shot if my life depended on it!! Nuff said!
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 22, 2023 5:55:13 GMT -7
You silver tongue devil, I am flattered! Lets lift our glasses to our lives never again depending on a single shot. Ah-men!
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Post by grasshopper on Jun 23, 2023 6:03:47 GMT -7
I would happily raise a glass and even buy the round for that toast pard! Hopefully it will never be an issue at all. The folks that post here are a fairly small group in this big ole world of ours but I guarantee they will understand my next statement completely. If I did need that one shot to be taken or if my pard needed the same all I would have to do is call, explain that someone wanted to hurt my family and that would be it. He would be on the next thing smoking my way and when I picked him up from the airport the only question he would have for me would be what type of ordnance did I have for him to use. You see dear readers, I have lots of folks I know and even enjoy talking to a few but as far as friends, few very few indeed and I’m proud to count my pard here as one of if not the very best I do have. I can only hope you have someone in your life like this it’s truly a blessing!!
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 23, 2023 6:50:18 GMT -7
Praise God Brother! The mathematical probability of two totally like minded persons not only crossing paths in their lifetime but becoming friends are slim at best yet perhaps by Gods will and for mutual good purpose it does happen. I recently read a quote by an ancient philosopher that said the meaning of the word friend is "" two bodies with one spirit "" It may be a hard thing to understand unless you have known it but I know it is true because I have. Some people may use that word "friend" loosely believing that quantity is in some way superior to quality but they are wrong in a way that unfortunately they may never truly comprehend.
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Post by grasshopper on Jun 23, 2023 7:27:27 GMT -7
Wow! That quote seems to fit perfectly, in my mind anyway and I know for an absolute fact it’s entirely true as well. It’s no surprise to you but you know I agree with your assessment that some folks equate the number of “friends” they have with success. I hope any new readers here will understand I’m not trying to be anti people or unfriendly it’s just for me the definition of a friend is much more exclusive than an acquaintance or just someone I happen to know. I also agree there must be some amount of divine intervention involved for two men to meet and pretty much think and act as one even though they grew up in different geographic regions and probably had different experiences in their childhood and how they were raised. I really don’t care if it was fate, destiny, the good Lord or space aliens! I’m just so proud I have at least one person in this world that I KNOW cares as much about me as I do for him! If I never happen to make another true friend in this life i for sure have truly been blessed with the one I do have!!
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 1, 2023 8:37:27 GMT -7
I mentioned that I thought the too long for the twist bullet I was using the big 40 bullet that required 20 points more elevation that the 38-55 to get on at 600 yards may have been slightly influenced by the fact that the bullets were cast in pure lead. I found this clip from a conversation on the Shiloh forum in a discussion about the 40-90 BN for long range and I found it quite interesting and related, """simply by hardening alloy i have had bullets shoot 2 moa higher at 1000 yds."""
I have since made and loaded some harder bullets but have not yet gone out to try them. I also have a new mold for a custom design improved Postell at 1.3" length at 380gn in alloyed lead to also try. Maybe tomorrow, Lord willing.
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Post by grasshopper on Jul 2, 2023 12:44:39 GMT -7
That would be quite the formula if it could be found to be consistent with hardening the bullet each time huh my friend? 2 MOA each 1000 yards seems like quite a bit just because the bullet is that much harder, or am I being too simplistic about it? If I am please correct me, you won’t hurt my feelings I promise!😁 Plus I’m willing to get my feelings hurt a little in order to gain some knowledge!
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 2, 2023 13:26:35 GMT -7
Got out today to try the new custom improved Postell bullet design in the 40-90 and it looks like I hit paydirt with the design. Where the proven 38-55 load with its 330 grain bullet required 58 points of increased elevation to get on at 600 yards from its 100 yards zero setting the new bullet in the 40-90 required a 57 point increase for the same range change.
For those that have been following the bullet I call the big 40 at 410gn with a 1.4" length required an additional 20 point increase over what was required for the 38-55 to get on at 600 yards. The new bullet at 1.3" length beat out the 38-55 by one point so it would seem that the rifle has an 18" twist not the 16.5 I thought I had measured. The big 40 at 1.4" length was just too much bullet for the twist and showed up big time needing an additional 20 points elevation over the 38-55-330 and the
40-90-380.
The other thing I tried today was some of the big 40's cast in alloyed lead at about bhn-9 and I saw no change in elevation required. The difference between pure lead and alloyed lead was apparently not an issue but .1" in bullet length absolutely was. With the 18" twist the 1.3" bullet is at the raged edge of stability and I may find that at even longer ranges rotational decay may cause some instability when going transonic. I read of some testes on this subject that showed the bullet develop a wobble when going through the transonic turbulence but then at longer ranges settle down again and make round holes on paper where as at the transonic point they made oblong holes. Dr. Mann made the same point showing that a bullet that is so unstable as to make nearly profile holes at some range would still make perfectly round holes at regular range intervals. That is what we are trying to avoid keeping the bullet spinning as true to its center as possible to avoid reducing the bullets BC keeping range and wind deflection to a minimum.
The full subsonic flight of our 38-55 has proven to shoot reasonable flat over long ranges even though its launch speed is only 1100 fps. No chance to chrono the 40-90 yet with the new bullet but have settled on the load of .7cc of LT-30 priming charge under 75 grain scale weight of FFG black powder. My guess at velocity is somewhere between 1300 and 1400 fps so at some distant range it has to transition from supersonic to subsonic and penetrate the turbulence caused by it. With todays shooting at 600 yards where the transition has already taken place and accuracy still seemed quite good I will say that it sure looks like the improved Postell design is holding up well.
From advice from others that have said that with the 18" twist and bullets longer than 1.250" that accuracy will fall apart past 500 yards but we have so far gotten to 600 yards without that happening. It should be interesting now to try even longer ranges from 700 to 1000 just to see if that prediction holds true. Either way in this new design of 380gn improved Postell at 1.3" length it looks like a keeper for at least to 600 yards. More would be better but no great loss if not. 600 yards covers the silhouette course well enough but maybe not quite good enough for long range gong shooting.
I can say for sure that the 40-90 is way much easier to shoot with bullets about equal in BC to 45 and 50 calibers. My 45-90 and 50-90 are noticeably more punishing than the 40-90 but then the 38-55 is a pussycat compared to the 40-90 and the 38-55 has already proven itself to 800 yards. Comon sense would say to just stick with the mild mannered 38-55 but for some strange reason that to me just seems too simple and in some way just not quite right. Every lesson in life is learned through either blood, sweet, or tears or some combination of those but those lessons are not soon forgotten. It would seem then that I still have much to learn but am willing to pay that cost to get there. Todays lesson was paid in sweet being out there alone and setting up the big heavy steel gong target on our hottest day so far this year. No blood or teers though so not too bad.
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Post by grasshopper on Jul 2, 2023 14:54:41 GMT -7
Great info! I wonder why it’s no surprise to me at all that you would not be doing cartwheels knowing now the 38-55 is absolutely locked in with that load but rather you are much more interested in the small details that could only make the other load possibly that much better? Plus if you really think about it I really don’t think that would be that great for business or future job security, I see what you’re up too!😁 Just another observation that came to mind that I think we sometimes forget or newer shooters haven’t been informed yet is the importance of keeping notes or “dope” on each rifle, load, weather conditions etc when we may be working up a special load for a specific application You can be all modest if you want but you’re the one that taught me the importance of doing this and I still remember the first time you showed me some of your note books that had years of information about different loads for that caliber inside of them! You can’t go to the local gun shop and buy that type of information. As always a great and informative post my friend! Keep them coming please!!
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 2, 2023 18:10:38 GMT -7
That would be quite the formula if it could be found to be consistent with hardening the bullet each time huh my friend? 2 MOA each 1000 yards seems like quite a bit just because the bullet is that much harder, or am I being too simplistic about it? If I am please correct me, you won’t hurt my feelings I promise!😁 Plus I’m willing to get my feelings hurt a little in order to gain some knowledge! No Bud you got it right! It cant get much simpler. This was not my finding but was from someone on the Shiloh forum in a conversation about the 40-90 BN. When I first tried the 40-90 with the big 40 bullet cast in pure lead I had wondered if the pure lead may be having some strange effect on the outcome. Reading about that fella from the Shiloh forum and what he was saying about reducing elevation by two points at 1000 yards caught my attention. Two point is substantial at 1000 yards. Two minutes at 1000 yards is 20 inches and most rifles with barrels not over 30 inches are close to 1 point equaling minute at 100 yards. That seems incredible to me that just by changing bullet hardness could have that much effect on not only elevation but windage as well. From reading other forums about the 40-90 BN it seems like there are two opinions one saying it is the cats meow for BPC long range while just as many say its a rats hairy twister. There are a few dedicated to it and have gone to as fast as a 13" twist rate and are shooting bullets as long as 1.55" My opinion is I like it even with my rifle having a somewhat slow 18" twist. Where my brain is going now is to improving long range performance by adding form stability in the form of a hollow base. Just like the minie bullets in twist rates that would be far too slow for a plain base bullet but by shifting the balance point forward by using a hollow base they can be nicely accurate. I proved that point to myself when I had a quality replica of the pattern 1856 Enfield rifle that when it was fed good quality bullets it could be a very accurate rifle. A similar treatment to my new 40 cal design may have a similar effect in shifting the balance point far enough forward that the effect would be to move the current design from the raged edge of stability to a more comfortable well stabilized condition that would not be effected in long range by rotational decay. I duno but I sure like to think it. Hay Rob you should see my box of notes now. It probably over 50 pounds. |
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Post by grasshopper on Jul 2, 2023 22:31:34 GMT -7
Shhh!! Don’t tell how much those notebooks might weigh these days pard! Next thing you know you will have some tree hugger that moved from California and is now a “resident” of the Big Sky state saying you are killing too many trees for your notebooks and they want you to start using a dry erase board or some such!! Just sayin, we gotta protect our own dont ya know!😁
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 3, 2023 7:44:27 GMT -7
Well since my home is likely far better armed than some of the western frontier forts I think were good for protecting our own. Besides by the way things are looking its not the crazies we will need to worry about it will be roving bands of looters when the evil work of Ozero finally breaks the system and the week become prey for the strong. I best quit now, its sounding political.
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Post by grasshopper on Jul 3, 2023 9:30:18 GMT -7
No I thought it sounded a whole lot like the “Mad Max” series of movies! It’s a scary thought to be sure!! Most, like I’d say at least 95% of today’s population has no idea what it means to truly be hungry or to see their loved ones really hungry or actually starving! You know as well as I do humans are capable of turning into literal animals when it comes down to survival. Like you I feel I’m better prepared than most as far as being armed, having plenty of ammo and the ability to make more, dried food and water put up and a plan. I believe most people will be waiting for the government to come and help them or they will depend on the charity of others. If and when it does happen it will come down to families forming “tribes” and in order to join one you will have to bring some skill set that benefits all in order to join. I know it sounds cruel but the folks that do t have anything to offer will just be out of luck I’m afraid. I also believe paper money and non silver or gold coin will be worthless but a box of 30-30 or 30-06 will be worth it’s weight in gold! someone told me once “chance favors the prepared mind”!!😁
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 3, 2023 10:59:08 GMT -7
""" “chance favors the prepared mind”""" Sounds familiar!
WOW!!! Boy was I wrong about the velocity of the 40-90 load!!! This AM I skipped out of work and decided it was time to chronograph the 40-90 load with the new 380gn bullet. When I first got the mold I had orders to fill for pure lead bullets but wanting badly to cast some bullets from my new mold and still be able to fill the order I went ahead and cast my first batch of bullets from the new mold in pure lead. I have had the mold for going on two weeks now and since the first batch have also cast some soft alloyed bullets from it.
The pure lead bullets have been sitting on my loading bench since they were made but shoved aside after reading what I earlier mentioned about pure lead being associated with increased drop in trajectory. Today I shot some of the pure lead before I decide if I would toss them back in the pot or shoot them. At the same time I was chrono graphing both the alloyed bullets and pure lead bullets I was also shooting some of the developed load with FFG powder as well as a small batch I loaded with FFFG powder just to see what the velocity difference would be.
First of was the pure lead bullets with the FFG powder. The load is with .7cc kicker of LT-30 and 75gn scale weight of FFG. I shot two of those over the old Ohler and to my surprise got 1568, and 1521 fps. I earlier stated that my guess for velocity of that load would be between 1300 and 1400 fps so I was way wrong on that guess. Interestingly the 5 shot 100 yard group including those first two chrono graphed the group measured 2.55" C to C with four of those going into 1.67". Apparently the pure lead isn't hurting anything even at the quite high velocity.
When I got to the ammo loaded with the FFFG powder I was amazed to see the velocity increase to 1620, 1636, 1628 for three shots chrono graphed. The load with FFFG powder was over the top for a soft plain base bullet as accuracy became eratic and extraction was getting sticky. That load with the FFG powder must be right at the very raged edge of pressure for accuracy. I am now thinking that maybe FG powder might be the best choice for this rifle and bullet. If going from FFG to FFFG gave a velocity increase of about 70 fps then by the same token maybe going to FG would reduce the velocity of the FFG load by the same amount. That should put the velocity of the FG load at about 1475 fps which should be much more gentle on the soft plain base bullets but still have a quite high velocity for a black powder load.
From what I have been reading about the 40-90 BN cartridge the guys that have put in time with it all seem to agree saying "" it is fast"" and with that I now agree. A little problem is that I have no FG powder on hand to try and that just wont do. Since the haz mat fee is the same for one pound as for a full case of 24 pounds I think I may see a case of FG coming this way, TINA !!!!!
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Post by grasshopper on Jul 3, 2023 11:16:57 GMT -7
Wow!! With an average of say 1620 that 380gr bullet was smokin today huh? Plus pure lead!! That just seems unreal but it goes to show you that the old timers we not quite as under gunned as some folks would have you believe!! I bet that was a big surprise for you pard! Great job!
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 3, 2023 13:47:33 GMT -7
Those old dead guys wiped out five million buffalo in just a few years so under gunned I think they were not. My general advice to the question of how fast can I load plain base hard lead bullets for good accuracy is about 1500 fps. Today with the pure lead bullets going about 1550 average and holding about 2 moa accuracy absolutely pushed the boundaries of what I thought possible.
I didnt actually weigh the charge of FFFG but just left the powder drop at the setting that threw 75 grain of FFG. The actual scale weight of the same volume of FFFG most certainly must weigh substantially more. I dont want to change the volume because it is a perfect fit to the case and bullet with very light compression. I did notice that with the three types of brass I was using that one of them showed substantially less volume than the other two so required a bit more powder compression than the others to get the wad to the same level in the case neck. All loads are in fired but unsized cases so the bullets just slide in with just enough friction to keep them from falling out when the cartridge is inverted.
With those pure lead bullets this thing should kill like a lightning bolt but still not ruin too much meat. I may never use it for hunting though because the 50-70 Sharps I recently got has that covered nicely. The 50-70 with a pure lead 600 grain paper patch bullet loaded with 33 grain of LT-30 is averaging right at 1200 fps so should kill well and ruin nothing of the edible meat.
I like the half inch bore for hunting for those reasons its very effective and ruins nothing. The 50-70 is set up for hunting with a globe front with post and ball and the original Laurance type rear with shallow v and tip up slider. That good enough for the ranges I would shoot and there is little to go wrong. The 40-90 is set up for long range with a Goodwin type vernier sight that looks like its begging to get knocked off. One for target and one for hunting and never the twain shall meet.
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 13, 2023 6:26:52 GMT -7
 Yesterday started a new chapter with the 40-90 with bumping bullets. Bullet bumping is done in the lube sizer press after the bullets are sized and lubed. To bump the bullet to a desired length the sizer press is first adjusted so that the depth adjuster is in the lowest adjustable position, then using a top punch that keeps the bullet base centered the bullet is run fully into the sizer die nose first until the top punch bottoms out on the die retaining nut. At that point the depth adjuster is raised until it contacts the bullet nose in the die. Then slightly back the bullet back up out of the die and in very small increments turn the depth adjuster upward and after each small adjustment bring the press ram back down until the top punch again bottoms on the die nut. Repeat the process until the desired bullet length is achieved. This is a precisely repeatable process because everything is held in alignment in the sizer die and the same amount of bump is applied each time. I used to use this process to increase meplate diameter either for improved terminal effect or when meplate diameter was questionably safe for use in lever actions. Yesterday it suddenly dawned on me that the bumping process also shortens the bullet length and bullet length is an issue for the 40-90 with 1/18" twist. Yesterday for the first time I tried with very good results bullets that were bump shortened from 1.363" to 1.270" length. The as cast shape is a spitzer and the bumped shape has a small meplate on the same efficient bullet shape. Yesterdays shooting results were very positive for accuracy. Something else tried yesterday was going to FG powder from FFG and FFFG and results there were also positive as I had mentioned I thought they might be. So far I have just barely started this chapter but it is looking good and is encouraging that bullet designs that had previously been rejected for being too long for the slow rifling twist rate can now be brought back into the picture. Such bullets that were too long so acted like they had a very low BC due to added drag from the instability can in this way be used by just slightly reducing the BC they would have if stable in flight by changing the nose shape to a small meplate instead of a round or pointed nose. The nice thing about bumping is that the bullet weight stays the same which keeps the BC high the only negative to the BC being the small meplate. From what I am seeing in regard to long range performance it is better to have the small meplate and have the bullet in stable flight than to have a bullet with a higher BC but unstable in flight. Hope to add more to this new chapter as progress is made so stay tuned. |
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Post by Bullshop on Jul 13, 2023 17:02:53 GMT -7
Tina added a picture for me and its better than 1000 of my words.
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Post by missionary on Sept 5, 2023 17:58:38 GMT -7
Well once again we have an advertiser aboard.
When we received our 50-95 1876 (repro) about 15 years back I had already become well versed what Winchester claimed was the velocity of the 285 grain "stubby" cast they had been loading for their "Express Cat Load". Right at 1550 fps was what was advertised. I had assumed this being a caliber .512 that 2F was the powder they were using or even F.
But I did not want to rely on a 285 grain caliber 50 for heavier than "cats" loading. Our choice was to start with a 350 FN and stick with that.
Found out real fast F Goex was only going to give a very low fps of under 1200 fps. That was with the power dropped tubed and vibrated. If I remember right only 82 grains would near top out the case. Accuracy was in the 3"-3.5" at 100. Was not risking compressing powder in the 50-95 brass.
Tried 2f Goex which helped to get the velocity up to 1350 but again this was not what we were looking for.Accuracy was still in the 3" area.
Next moved to 3F Goex. 1st load of 82 grains moved the 350 grain at 1470 and accuracy was improving to under 3" and one group (5 shots) a hair under 2.5".
Kept adding 3F Goex at 1 grain increments and when 86 was reached solid 2" and a few 1.75 inch groups came together with a velocity of 1545 fps. Brass easily ejected and would rechamber an hour later with no effort. So that is where we settled. 3F Goex, 350 grain FN cast of range scrap with one cereal box wad over the powder and Winchester LR primers. Velocity varies under 7 fps with 10 rounds.
Some time back, maybe 10 years I did read an article that stated Winchester used 3F (brand not given) to achieve the "Express" velocities in the 50-95 with the 285 grain cast bullet. I wish I had wrote that page info down in my loading page for the 50-95 rifle. I do hope to find it again one day as it is a book I own.
May try a "kicker" under 2F or even F one day. May find another 1/4" in accuracy hiding in the smoke.
Have learned though that the 1545 -1560 fps seems to be the magic # with that 26" barrel and that 350 grain cast. 5477 and Buff Rifle both near equal the groups of 3F (add 1/4 inch average) over numerous tests. But the 3F load has never been equaled in our rifle. Some 3F groups have been under 1.5 ". That is me sitting behind cross sticks. I no longer bench any rifle over caliber .30 and still prefer cross sticks with any rifle. I can and do carry sticks with me in a bow quiver on my back when walking about and shots could occur over 50 yards. But that is very rare here.
Now when we get to AZ that will be very open so the cross sticks will always be a part of the shooting gear.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 6, 2023 19:42:14 GMT -7
That is exactly the kind of effort required to be ready for a hunt. I get so many customers that just bought a new rifle and they ask me for " the best bullet" for a hunt they will be on next week. For me I greatly enjoy the process of finding what works best in any gun but that can take weeks or months. The type of people that want someone else to do it for them are neither hunters nor shooters but I will stop short of saying what I think they really are.
You gotta love it or else just take up golf.
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Post by missionary on Sept 6, 2023 23:40:29 GMT -7
There sure is no substitute for hands on learning.
Once we had the "best load" together we removed the repro ladder sight and replaced it with a Marbles "full buckhorn" rear.
The lower notch we set for 100 yards. Then went to work to discover how much of the front sight needs to be above that notch for 150 yards.
Finally at 200 yards discovered the top of the front sight nestled into the upper horns was just a shad low but dead on at 175 yards.
So in the end, 4 pounds of 3F Goex and 350+ rounds of 350 grainers went down range. Got to the place where the 6 inch gongs at 100, 150 and the 8" at 200 yards were very easy to pop off cross sticks.
No brass loss with those original 50 pieces either. Just neck sized only. They did have to be shortened some to maintain the 2.25 OAL yet use the crimp groove on that particular bullet. No regrets either as that is the only load we have for the rifle..
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