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Post by Bullshop on Jan 13, 2016 20:58:10 GMT -7
Ever on the lookout for new powders with appropriate burn rate for small rifle cartridges and general cast bullet rifle loading I recently happened on to some Alliant 410 at a really good price. Looking for data for this powder I come up with zip accept 410 shot loads. I found a little blurb about it being sensitive to temp changes when loaded in magnum handguns but I don't see that as an issue because all powders are effected to some degree by extreme temp swings. Since for my application I am not loading to red line pressure levels an increase in pressure due to temperature change will have little effect on my load. The price of $15.00 per pound was so attractive we bought out the stock the store had. They had it priced at $17.00 but accepted an offer of $15.00 if we took it all. On the most recent burn rate chart I have Alliant 410 is listed alongside 2400 so the burn rate is very usable. It is a small grain extruded powder much like 2400 and it meters well as does 2400. In the past I had a fling with another Alliant powder of about the same burn rate Alliant Steel. I like Steel very much for the volume to weight bulk. It is a very lofty flattened flake powder with fairly large flakes and because of that meters so poorly every charge has to be weighed. Bottom line there is the bad seems to out weight the good so since I don't like weighing charges I fell out of love with Alliant Steel. Enter my new attraction Alliant 410. You might wonder why if it is the burn rate of 2400, and bulks like 2400, and meters like 2400 why not use 2400. The answer to that is of course cost. Alliant 2400 is nearly twice the cost of what I paid for the 410 at the same store and there are no other stores to go to here. Having had a bit over a week to explore the possibilities of this new powder I have tried it in three cartridges so far with of course cast bullets and all have yielded excellent results. Since we have been having really carpy weather I have made no attempt to chronograph but when decent weather allows and Lord willing I intend to do so. The three cartridges I have burned this powder in so far are the 22 Hornet, 25-20, and today the 30-30. The 30-30 is new to me as of one day ago and conditions were miserable today with the wind constantly blowing over the pallet I was using to hang targets on. This little iron sighted Savage 340 was just fun to work with and did some good shooting with an NEI copy of the traditional 170gn FNGC 30-30 bullet and 14gn of Alliant 410. The 22 Hornet turned in some very impressive groups burning 7.4gn of this powder under a 52gn CBE design. This may end up being a favorite hornet load when better weather permits more detailed investigation. It is the load that completely destroyed the rabbit on our rabbit hunting day Saturday last. Both these loads shot gas checked bullets but the big surprise was with the 25-20 shooting an 85gn plain base bullet. This load is burning 6gn Alliant 410 under the 85gn plain base bullet and sparked with a CCI#450 magnum pistol primer. This is the load that made 7 consecutive head shots on our rabbit hunt day so is showing great potential. While I am on this roll I hope to add a few more cartridges to the list with the 22 Cooper, 221 Fire Ball, and 32 Special. From there I will eventually likely try some chamberings on the 30-06 case. With the results I am having with this powder I am bewildered at the total absence of any such load data in small rifle cases especially with cast bullets. I fear that it will be discovered a gem for this purpose too late and after it is discontinued we will be crying the same old sad song. I got a total of ten pounds in the afore mentioned deal so when the chorus begins I will not be singing along. |
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Post by Junior on Jan 13, 2016 21:04:39 GMT -7
I've heard of it have have not gotten to try it. The only powders u can get locally are 4350 and 4895. I'm just about our of red dot And when I use the last of it up I'm not sure what I'm gonna do for handgun/light rifle powder.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2016 14:51:04 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2016 15:19:10 GMT -7
OK time for a little update on my use of Alliant # 410 powder. So far I have worked up good loads with this powder in 22 Hornet, 25-20, 30-30, and 45 Colt.
We are still; having weather that makes chronographing difficult so not much to add there. The above targets are from 22 Hornet right and 45 Colt left. I did manage to chronograph the hornet load. It is using the 52gn CBE design with 7.4gn Alliant 410 for 2130 fps. A quick check with published data for the 22 hornet with jacketed bullets of this weight shows this is very near top end velocity with this bullet weight. The target shown was fired leaning over the hood of my PU with no rest other than my elbows on the hood. The range was 58 yards and there are 11 shots in the group.
The 45 Colt load is with the 330gn Lyman Gould hollow point plain base bullet with 15gn of Alliant 410 and the range is 50 yards. No chronograph for the 45 load but I estimate between 1400 and 1500 fps.
The 25-20 load is using our 80gn flat nose plain base bullet with 6gn Alliant 410. No targets available yet with this load but it shoots darn good. It is the load we used for our rabbit hunting day mentioned in another thread here that we made 7 consecutive head shots at ranges to 50 yards.
I managed to chrono this one at 1550 fps average which I consider to be about the limit for a plain base bullet of medium hardness.
I plan to keep up with developing loads for other cartridges with this powder and maybe if it goes well convince the folks at Alliant that it has far greater usefulness than just for loading 410 shot shells.
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Feb 6, 2016 15:33:36 GMT -7
Great report,Dan..I'd be interested also what that powder might do with 45 Colt in a stout revolver..Is there one such around your area.??,I've burned too much 2400 in the 45 colt revolvers to remember whether or not it was 4 Lbs or 8 Lbs,,Trying to find something else similar as I 'm saving the 2400 for Long guns until supplies of that get a LOT BETTER....1Oxxxxxxxxn
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2016 16:25:50 GMT -7
Yes Bill I have a Ruger Bisley black hawk in 45 Colt. I did shoot it a little today at 50 yards and it looks like it will do well. I was concentrating more on use in the carbine today so just a quick check with the revolver showed me that I should take a closer look with the use of this powder in the revolver. I was shooting 18.7gn with the Lyman 454260 and that looked to be about max for a plain base bullet. To get a good burn this load required deep seating and a firm crimp over the ogive. I also tried 20gn with a 250gn gas check design and it was looking good also. 20gn did not at all seem like a top pressure load with the 250gn gas check bullet.
Loads below 18gn were too low in pressure smoking up the cases badly.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2016 18:53:22 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2016 19:00:55 GMT -7
Check this one out Bill. I had an order for some 311-170 Ranch Dog bullets and ran a few extra to try in the Savage 340 in 30-30 I recently got.
My powder drop was still set at 15gn of Alliant 410 from shooting the 45 Colt today and I had been shooting 14gn in the 30-30 with similar bullets with room to spare so left it at 15gn.
I had barely enough light left today to see the iron sights on the 340 so loaded three to try and managed to pinch off these three shots at 50 yards.
I will be trying more of these with this powder in the 30-30!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 11, 2016 16:31:25 GMT -7
I am really liking this powder. A couple more loads have been added to favorites recently. One is in a 221 Fire Ball using 9gn ALL-410 with the new Lee C225-55RF design. The Lee bullet comes in at 57gn with enriched WW and lube and gas check.
I was hoping this design would shoot good in the 1/16" twist of my 22 hornet but no joy there. The 221 with 1/14" twist shoots them great and the 9gn 410 load with the 57gn Lee bullet is a winner.
Next on my favorites list is in my new to me 1874 Sharps 45-90 burning 21gn ALL-410 with 500+ gn bullets. I am using a magnum rifle primer and over the powder filling the case with Styrofoam packing popcorn and compressing with the bullet.
This load gives very low extreme velocity spreads and holds up well at long range.
The two bullets I have used so far are a 555gn Paul Jones Creedmoor design and a 575gn NEI-DD design.
Just as with the same charge weight of ALL-2400 powder velocity runs 1250 fps average with these bullet weights.
In a short outing recently this load produced slightly under 2 moa at 500 yards under what were poor sighting conditions, poor because I made the target with a ring bulls eye that was very difficult to see through the sights at 500 yards. I have now made a solid black bulls eye large enough to see well beyond 500 yards so next time out might better the results referred to.
So by now I have compiled quite a list of loads in a variety of calibers and chamberings using this powder. Even so there is still a long list of cartridges I want to try it in and report on here so stay tuned.
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Mar 14, 2016 17:57:38 GMT -7
Dan: Thanks for the additional info. I was lucky enuff to have a friend come up on 8 Lb'er of H 2400 at local chain Operator..AND He only kept 1 lb.for himself...I do have to carry 4 Lb.with me to Nev. last w'kend of the month,to help keep BIL (cobbmtmac)shooting. But three Lbs on top of what I had left gets me into 2017 even shooting some in the bigger handguns..IF,i do find some Alliant 410 at realistic $, I'm buying it.!!! Switching to off topic,I want to mention how much fun it has been playing with that 160 gr .323 PB bullet you brought over to Wisdom for me last summer... your load of 5.0 gr Red Dot is just the berries & nuts in the older 32 Rem. amish machie guns..I sold one such rifle in Filer on Valentines w'kend and that gent is expecting me to bring some of the bullets when we are back there first w'kend next month...Better Plan on you & Tina making the Wisdom show again this summer,so I can get bullets instead of shipping $...I will include your bizness card with the bullets I take him...1oldgentagain
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 14, 2016 21:42:43 GMT -7
Hi Bill its good to see your punching keys again!!!! I have been more than a little worried not seeing any activity from you here most recently.
The 5gn RD load with those plain base 160gn 32 cal bullets sure is a fun load in the 32 Win Spl. and 32 Rem. Makes a dandy small game load.
Lord willing we do hope to be at the Wisdom show even if just for a day visit. It is our social event of the year and is about the only social event we try to make time for.
I will be happy to haul some bullets there for you.
I am working with this Sharps I got recently hoping I might get to take it to the Quiggley match in Forcythe but know full well there is a very slim chance that will happen. Still derive much pleasure from going through the process of just being ready figuring out loads and sight settings and such.
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Mar 15, 2016 13:16:30 GMT -7
Just the "in case" getting ready to shoot the Quigley ought to enliven springtime there..Everything I've read or heard it FTF conversation about that event tells me that if you don't have your windage reading/holding down pat,it won't rally matter what class you shoot it in,you will still more than a Lb.of luck to go 10/40...Have a friend from Elko,Nv. area that's been a regular there ,longer than I've known him..went by "Powderburnerr" ,I think ,when active on the "boolit" board,but rarely seen there lately. At Last asking that fine fellow had 5 Shiloh Sharps rifles,four of which I got to shoot once @ the NCBS event in Winnemucca..That was B4 he got his 50/??...I've also heard that if you can go clean on the one offhand match at Quigley ,the rest will be a "piece of cake" !!!
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 15, 2016 13:48:43 GMT -7
I did get to shoot the match once about ten or more years ago and finished in the top ten scores. I was shooting a Browning 45-70. We had a rain squall come through while we were shooting that was blowing the vendors tents away so scores were poor when that happened.
I was shooting the Lyman Smitzer a pointed 500gn bullet that was cutting through the conditions really well. Only two in my squad were hitting the 850 yard buffalo myself and one other fella. The other fella was shooting a 1/12" twist 38-55 with a custom design 400gn Postell. He and I were the only ones even coming close to that target. Everyone else looked like they were shooting into a protective force field that was pushing bullets either way low or way high of the target.
It was a fun match and the kicker is everyone that participates has a chance to win the drawing for the Shiloh Sharps rifle.
About this Alliant 410 powder I see it as about an equal replacement for 2400 but maybe not quite as flexible in as wide a pressure range, maybe. My reason/purpose for my interest in developing loads with it is because I got 10 pounds for $150.00. I would just as rather be using 2400 but I cant get it for nearly that price. Old Hercules 2400 is awfully hard to find. I do have a one pound can in the old short square can with metal pull seal but I just cant make myself pull the seal.
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Mar 15, 2016 20:42:56 GMT -7
Your old squat & Square Herc.2400 sealed can,ought to rank with my full box of 300 Savage cartridges loaded with the R.P.150 gr Bronze Point bullet for rarity nowadays. It's a stop & stare OMG item at local gun shows...On the order of the Geo.Hensley 2 Cav.mould with Geo.Hensley marked handles..Never used it personally,too afraid of dropping it...!!!!! 1oxxgxxxaxxxx. (might be able to part with 1 Lb 2400 by Wisdom time,if we don't solve "our"problem by then....)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 6:00:56 GMT -7
Bullshop: I'm making a note to be sure n' lend a hand with opening that square can of 2400 when by next time! No need to thank me now, k'.  Regarding Alliant 410: have you worked with in .38-55 yet, or is that on your list of cartridges still? By the time the snow's gone should have a 28" barreled rebuild of an old Florida swamp find Peabody .43 Spanish crusty military rifle rebuilt into a Sporting Rifle configuration in .38-55 - meaning the gunsmith should have it completed by then. Believe it'll have the standard 1:18 twist, but need to double check on that? I've plenty of factory jacketed (pardon my language) ammo and lots of empty Windychester brass for working up loads. Yup, gonna get with ya on a proper cast lead pill for launching down the barrel. Figuring for use up to 300 yards, in general, but of course gonna stretch that to see what might be accomplished further out? Nice results with the Marlin .45 Colt. I've a couple of Rossi M92's in .45 Colt, but your Marlin load would be too stout with bullet weight n' pressure for use in a Colt SAA, and I prefer to not have 'rifle only' loads of .45 Colt on the shelf, lest they might wind up in a SAA!! Not good that'd be. |
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 19, 2016 9:45:39 GMT -7
I am overwhelmed by your generous offer of aid in the opening of my vintage can of 2400. I will forever cherish your selfless act of kindness. 38/55 is still upcoming on the list. Just received yesterday a new to me Seaco mold for a 250gn PB in 38 cal. The seller said it dropped at .3825" in pure lead. That will add some diameter options to our inventory in that caliber. Do you know if the smith doing your rifle is using a 375 cal barrel or a true 38 cal barrel? If 38 cal with 1/18" twist the design should be about perfect for GP shooting. Yesterday I had my Marlin 45 Colt out again using up some over run from an order. The order was for our 400gn Bullshop Bearbash Bullet, (BBB) design. I had not yet tried this design in the Marlin until yesterday thinking maybe the twist was too slow but found that thinking was wrong. I didn't stick with the Alliant 410 powder but instead went with the powder that has always proven itself for such use H-110. A stab in the dark load at 17 gn seems to have been a good guess putting 8 of ten shots literally in one hole and two an inch lower. Interestingly 5 of ten were with gas checks and 5 were without gas checks. The two shots that went low of the other 8 were without gas checks. This now stands as the most accurate load I have found for this Marlin 45 Colt carbine.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 22:20:31 GMT -7
Bullshop: word back from the gunsmith is the .38-55 barrel twist rate is 1:16 and .375, which I believe most barrel makers had gone to the .375 barrel since the 1970's, or at least for many years now. So will figure on .377 cast, most likely. Oh bother....I've a couple of other .38-55's that take the larger .379 cast. Good thing have plenty brass to make into 2 piles for reloading now!
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cobbmtmac
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NRA Life Member since 1978
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Post by cobbmtmac on Mar 21, 2016 8:54:48 GMT -7
Bullshop and 1oldgent,
Just got around to reading all the above. Great information and I will now be on the hunt for some of that Alliant 410!
Thanks again to both of you! Keep on having FUN! Mac
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Mar 21, 2016 11:30:22 GMT -7
Dan: you have fresh message to read.... 1OxxGxxxAxxx
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2016 14:11:07 GMT -7
Dan: you have fresh message to read.... 1OxxGxxxAxxx Bill That message didn't show up here. Would you please try again? |
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2016 14:18:26 GMT -7
Got a new to me old mold today for what I can only describe as a 30 cal Postell design. It looks to be about 180gn PB with three drive bands and two lube grooves with the Postell nose shape but the mold is unmarked in any way so wont know for sure on the weight until I cast it. I will likely try this is a 308 Win with Alliant #410 -- SOON! Just got done casting some. In clip on WW they are 193gn and 312" diameter. Maybe my 1903-a3 with 4 groove barrel will like them. It likes its bullets on the fat side.  |
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2016 20:06:04 GMT -7
outsidebear - we do have a good selection of designs to run at .377" diameter too. I am glad to hear that it is a 1/16" rather than a 1/18" twist. Adds a goodly amount of versatility.
Mac - I do plan on continuing in the fun for as long as the Lord allows. In any conversation with my Missus please refer to it as work related learning though. Calling it fun makes it sound like I am sluffing off when in reality I am working hard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 7:46:02 GMT -7
Don't figure to be doing lonnnng range work with this rifle, out to 200-300 yards would be about it, so the 1:16 should work fine. Won't need heavy for .38 caliber bullets, as not into the shooting of metal chickens n' rams - never could find a recipe for 'em! Rather this is to be a slinging lead rifle: informal target work and possibly some hunting. somewhere in the 235 gr (can we say Ranch Dog here!) to maybe the 265-275 gr'ers you offer, depending on what the load (most likely 5744 powder) and the barrel might like? I went with the .38-55 as it's known for accuracy; will be thrifty on powder n' plumbum consumption; and friendly on the shoulder for a younger shooter to work with from the bench. If want more umph, then have other irons to select from for a larger bore n' more thump downrange with hunting. Though there's no stains on a .38-55 for hunting. Adequate time to sort things out.
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