ramblings about accuracy by design
Apr 26, 2023 12:44:27 GMT -7
todddoyka and shootist---Gary like this
Post by Bullshop on Apr 26, 2023 12:44:27 GMT -7
Being something of a firearms history as well as ballistics history nut I always enjoy reading through vintage published history on the subject because most often I can glean something that adds to my knowledge base. Sometimes those little gems are right there almost unnoticeable but when detected help to build the foundation of knowledge on which to base hopefully improved performance in accuracy results. For instance in Harvey Donaldsons writing he said that when he was developing his namesake cartridge the 219 Donaldson Wasp he felt that a round nose bullet gave better accuracy that a pointed nose bullet. A gem ? Now consider a name that has always been synonymous with cast bullet accuracy Harry Pope. His bullet design is still a winner in cast bullet bench rest competition and his design is a flat nose. Accuracy by design ? If you look at the historical records of the top shooters in the time period from about 1870 to 1900 I think you may find it a task to identify any spitzer design being used by any of them.
Most often these shooters were not too concerned with the bullet BC because they were not shooting past 200 yards but in the long range competitions that were the bullet nose shape for the purpose of increasing the BC was a round nose. If anyone has access to the old Lyman 1st edition cast bullet handbook do a quick study of the ballistic charts and you will quickly see what a big difference going from flat to round nose made in long range ballistics. In that vein you would think to going still further in the direction of improved ballistic performance by raising the BC by using a pointed nose but the history does not show that. Remember what Harvey Donaldson said?
Going back still further to the writings of DR. Franklin Mann and we find that he came to many conclusions as to accuracy by bullet design but none of those included spitzer bullet noses. Now I am going to go out on a limb where I will have little support of others from their historical writings accept with one possible link to the master Harry Pope. After recently reading the book of single shot rifles by Ned Roberts and Ken Waters I believe I gleaned one of those gems in Mr. Popes explanation to Mr. Roberts on why he felt that his Mr. Popes muzzle/breach loading system was potentially more accurate than the then most popular for top accuracy system of breach seating the bullet fully into the barrel ahead of a separately charged and inserted case. The reason given by Mr. Pope put very simply was that his system resulted in a more perfect bullet base an idea that was pretty well accepted after the Mann trials as being critical to accuracy, a perfect bullet base.
Now let us skip forward in time to where we right here on this forum may have provided another of those gems that collectively may lead to best performance. We must have thought it at least relevant because we made it a sticky. That is the thread about a question many customers had asked which was """ can cast bullets designed to use a gas check be used without a gas check ? """
OK we are on a roll now so I will add another possible gem. Recently in working on long range loads in a 38-55 with the intended purpose of use at the Quigly match using different bullet designs of both round nose and pointed nose as well as plain base as well as gas check base design. So far in this testing for long range accuracy one bullet design has stood out as best which has a round nose shape but more interesting to me a gas check base design. Alway trying to analyze results and trying to mate reason with result I am lead back to what Harry Pope said to Ned Roberts about why his system of introducing the bullet into the barrel was potentially more accurate, "" a perfect bullet base "" Pondering that point and how it may in some way apply to a gas check type bullet base but without the gas check the idea I have is that with the gas check type base the actual base is free from the finning caused by the rifling lands that Mr. Pope felt could be detrimental to accuracy and the reason he though his system should be more accurate because when introduced from the muzzle the finning occurred not at the bullet base as when breach seating but at the forward edge of each drive band where they caused little harm to accuracy. So in applying that idea when a bullet designed to use a gas check but without the gas check is engraved by the rifling the finning ends at the base of the base drive band but not at the bullet base proper.
So with that idea I have to question is what I am seeing with getting best long range accuracy in my testing of the 38-55 using a bullet that is a gas check design somehow related to what Mr. Pope felt was a potentially most accurate system ? Are the two design points, round nose and gas check base showing some accuracy by design superiority ?
Another point I might make is the bullet nose design giving best long range results in long range BPC competition is a sort of semi round nose and the pointed spitzer nose seems to have been abandoned in this application.
I dont have any conclusive answers but I will say this that I intend to be guided by input from the masters and maybe attempt to apply those gems that they gave us and maybe possibly add a new facet of my own to those gems.
Most often these shooters were not too concerned with the bullet BC because they were not shooting past 200 yards but in the long range competitions that were the bullet nose shape for the purpose of increasing the BC was a round nose. If anyone has access to the old Lyman 1st edition cast bullet handbook do a quick study of the ballistic charts and you will quickly see what a big difference going from flat to round nose made in long range ballistics. In that vein you would think to going still further in the direction of improved ballistic performance by raising the BC by using a pointed nose but the history does not show that. Remember what Harvey Donaldson said?
Going back still further to the writings of DR. Franklin Mann and we find that he came to many conclusions as to accuracy by bullet design but none of those included spitzer bullet noses. Now I am going to go out on a limb where I will have little support of others from their historical writings accept with one possible link to the master Harry Pope. After recently reading the book of single shot rifles by Ned Roberts and Ken Waters I believe I gleaned one of those gems in Mr. Popes explanation to Mr. Roberts on why he felt that his Mr. Popes muzzle/breach loading system was potentially more accurate than the then most popular for top accuracy system of breach seating the bullet fully into the barrel ahead of a separately charged and inserted case. The reason given by Mr. Pope put very simply was that his system resulted in a more perfect bullet base an idea that was pretty well accepted after the Mann trials as being critical to accuracy, a perfect bullet base.
Now let us skip forward in time to where we right here on this forum may have provided another of those gems that collectively may lead to best performance. We must have thought it at least relevant because we made it a sticky. That is the thread about a question many customers had asked which was """ can cast bullets designed to use a gas check be used without a gas check ? """
OK we are on a roll now so I will add another possible gem. Recently in working on long range loads in a 38-55 with the intended purpose of use at the Quigly match using different bullet designs of both round nose and pointed nose as well as plain base as well as gas check base design. So far in this testing for long range accuracy one bullet design has stood out as best which has a round nose shape but more interesting to me a gas check base design. Alway trying to analyze results and trying to mate reason with result I am lead back to what Harry Pope said to Ned Roberts about why his system of introducing the bullet into the barrel was potentially more accurate, "" a perfect bullet base "" Pondering that point and how it may in some way apply to a gas check type bullet base but without the gas check the idea I have is that with the gas check type base the actual base is free from the finning caused by the rifling lands that Mr. Pope felt could be detrimental to accuracy and the reason he though his system should be more accurate because when introduced from the muzzle the finning occurred not at the bullet base as when breach seating but at the forward edge of each drive band where they caused little harm to accuracy. So in applying that idea when a bullet designed to use a gas check but without the gas check is engraved by the rifling the finning ends at the base of the base drive band but not at the bullet base proper.
So with that idea I have to question is what I am seeing with getting best long range accuracy in my testing of the 38-55 using a bullet that is a gas check design somehow related to what Mr. Pope felt was a potentially most accurate system ? Are the two design points, round nose and gas check base showing some accuracy by design superiority ?
Another point I might make is the bullet nose design giving best long range results in long range BPC competition is a sort of semi round nose and the pointed spitzer nose seems to have been abandoned in this application.
I dont have any conclusive answers but I will say this that I intend to be guided by input from the masters and maybe attempt to apply those gems that they gave us and maybe possibly add a new facet of my own to those gems.