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Post by Bullshop on Jan 22, 2023 20:51:06 GMT -7
Does anyone here have any knowledge of or experience with the Hoch single shot action? If so I would like to hear about it. I might soon be joining you.
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Post by missionary on Jan 23, 2023 5:19:05 GMT -7
I do not. Had pondered buying one some time ago but with the Rollers we have acuired over the years in 43 Spanish we are not in need of an action for another SS. But at the other place in the SS section or the BPCR I did read a thread on the Hoch action. Been out there long enough should be treads at most SS sites.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 23, 2023 8:46:23 GMT -7
There is some information on line but there seems to be some confusion with some saying the Hoch and a version of the Dehass Miller action are the same. The few people that have them all seem to be very fond of them with several stating it is the most accurate rifle they have.
Apparently there was someone in Cal. some years back that bought eight actions and built each into a cast bullet bench rest rifle. It looks like I will be getting one of those. I have been in contact with a person that also has one of those eight which overall looks the same as mine. His rifle is in a short version of the 32-40. Each of these guns were equipped with a bullet mold and breach seating tool.
The rifle I may be getting is chambered for the 25 hornet and does also include the breach seating tool and bullet mold. These rifles were never mass produced and I believe only available as an action for a custom build from the action designer. I believe the group of eight that this rifle is from was the largest group of rifles built by any single source. Most of these that made it to complete rifles were one off's. Should keep me amused for awhile. There is a place in Butte where a shutzen club meets in the original club house that was built for that purpose in the heyday of shutzen competition. It has a big pot belly wood stove and a row of windows that tip up for shooting. At one time I was invited to go shoot with them but I have never been much of a group person but still the idea intrigues me. They have different disciplines of off hand shooting but there is also a bench rest competition. These matches are shot with vintage rifles and cast bullets. I dont know but think it might be fun to try. Butte is 100 miles away so there is an expense but well I dont know it seems so off to me to shoot with a group of people since all my shooting is done alone. Just a weird mental thing I guess but I cant deny it is there. Anyway weather I do or dont get over my phobia I am pretty certain I will enjoy my opportunity to study the Hoch action in a chambering that I have always been interested in but never used, yet. Oh and this was interesting, I thought just for fun I would contact C&H-4-D and ask about a set of FL loading dies for the 25 Hornet to see if they had any ready. Strangely the response was by golly yes we do. I took that as a sign.
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Post by missionary on Jan 23, 2023 13:56:14 GMT -7
When up north I go to our local range on Monday morning early so I can be alone and enjoy what I do. Another feller arrives about 10am but I normally am about done so it is a no issue. C&H are good people. They always have been very helpful to me. Smart people! Others who have stuff to sell could learn alot from them.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 23, 2023 14:04:32 GMT -7
Daniel, I had never participated in "organized" shooting matches, before learning about the "Quigley" BPC shoot at Forsyth, during the winter of 2015-16. I called & talked with Mrs. Coker, telling her that I had never done anything like that. She explained to me that everybody has a first time, & it was jusu a time to come & have fun & meet a bunch of good friendly people. I then got online & learned as much as I could as to what I needed to do to get ready to go. I ordered the correct cast bullets for my Trapdoor from you, made my drop tube, called RCBS & had them make me a compression die, called Glen Kapitzke, & asked many questions about loading procedures, loaded 150 rounds, then drove 1,500 miles, hit 7 targets out of 48 shots & had lots of fun. Being that you could be called a "professional", with the knowledge & background experience that you have, go & do it. Have fun, then when you get old & gray, while sitting in front of the wood stove on cold winter evenings, you will have pleasant memories to think about. If you don't do it, you will never have those memories. An old man in his 80's, that lived with us in the late 1960's, & was like a grandfather gave me that advise while I was in my mid 20's & I have never forgotten it. As a side note, Glen Kapitzke from Miles City passed away on Jan. 14. He had shot in every one of the Quigley matches, & was wheelchair bound for over 30 years. He wore the high beaver hat with a coyote tail on it. He was one of the 'regulars" in the mornings back at the "coffee club" at Red Rock Sporting Goods Store in Miles City, a very nice fellow.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 23, 2023 18:14:04 GMT -7
You know Gary I remember meeting that fellow the one year I shot the Quigley. He shot the whole match off hand from his chair and he scored right up there with the top shooters. I also remember I did have fun. I was there as a vendor too but did not park in vendors row. I didnt even know about vendors row until much later. As usual I parked out 1947 Spartan camper clear in the back away from close neighbors. Tina sold bullets while I shot the match. There was a young fella I met that was having a terrible time hitting anything and after the first day asked me for help. I looked over his new Italian Sharps and found the bore to be badly leaded. He was shooting some bullets he got from Midway the ones that are harder than chicken lipps and have the crumbly crayon lube. We cleaned his rifle best we could while enjoying some home brew at his camp. We pulled all the bullets from his ammo and replaced them with my bullets with our lube. I told him that after a few shots our lube would help remove whatever lead was left in his barrel. The next day he started hitting targets and after the match his barrel was lead free. He was there with his FIL who later won the drawing for the new Sharps rifle. He was so excited he couldnt believe it was him. He kept looking for someone else with the same name to stand up. We had to help him stand up and push him along to go get his new rifle. That was fun too.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 23, 2023 19:50:19 GMT -7
Daniel, check Stevenson Funeral Homes, Miles City, for Glen's obituary. Reading it, I was amazed to learn about Glen's life & what all he had accomplished. I had no clue about any of it, except that he belonged to the group that shoots with in different competitions around his area. He was a real down to earth type of person.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 24, 2023 10:08:49 GMT -7
I got the Hoch 25 Hornet yesterday and just looking through the barrel I will guess somewhere around a 10" twist. The mold is for a tapered spitzer that I will guess slightly over 100gn. Hope to cast some today and find out for sure. The chamber appears tight and intended for breach seating with bullets from this mold. Yestereve I loaded one round of fixed ammo with a 65gn PB bullet sized to .259" and it will not fully chamber . If this rifle is to shoot fixed ammo as it is the case necks will have to be turned or a bullet diameter less than .259" or a combination of both will be in order. I wont alter the chamber because then the breach seating system may be rendered useless for accuracy. I am anxious to try it as intended. My intention is to go with about a BHN-9 to 10 alloy since the velocity of the cartridge due to its slight case volume will be limited to traditional black powder velocity at about 1300 fps. Let the chase begin!
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Post by missionary on Jan 24, 2023 10:44:51 GMT -7
These "chase's" are always informative. I look forward to this chapter.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 24, 2023 17:52:30 GMT -7
Today was a busy day filling bullets orders, making lube, and draining the water heater tank I have to replace. There was no time for casting today so I am still ignorant about what dimensions will be from the bullets cast with the supplied mold. I did however shoot the rifle. It was a very quick (I was afraid of getting caught) informal test. I mounted an old El Paso Weaver steel tube K-10. I like those old K-10's for the long tube. I ran both adjusters to about center of adjustment range. I had four cartridges loaded with 2 grain of Trail Boss and the NOE 63gn PB. I rested over a pile of garbage that was in the PU bound for the dump. A large cardboard box at about 30 yards with about an inch black square was the target. The ammo had to be neck sized in a .269" sizer to chamber freely. The first shot was a couple inches low and right a good sign for having turrets at near center of adjustments. A quick adjustment put the next three shots in about a 35 caliber hole. That seems really encouraging to me. Now that I have that HAVE TO SHOOT IT thingy out of the way and since tomorrow is one of my two days per week off I hope to get some bullets cast with the mold that the gun is intended to shoot and load them the way they are intended to be loaded. The prey has been spotted and the chase begun!
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 25, 2023 18:16:40 GMT -7
Today Wednesday was my day off but I still had domestic chores. I had to install a new water heater after emptying and removing the old one. Got that done and BS Mom is enjoying a hot shower as I type. It did cut into my free time but I did manage to get a couple hundred bullets cast for the 25 hornet. With a BHN-9 alloy the tapered spitzer bullets weigh 122 grain. At first the mold was not venting well causing bullet bases to be less than perfect. I shut down for a bit and filed a bevel at the top parting line and from then on bases were well filled with clean sharp edges, perfect. For this project anything less than perfect is unacceptable. I was probably right about the twist being 1/10" because this bullet at 122 grain is pretty long. When I got the rifle there was some charged primed brass but because of how it was loaded I decided to break them down and just use the primed brass. What I didnt like about it was there was a Styrofoam disc tamped down on the powder leaving nearly half the case length empty so a good jump from the disc location to the bullet base. That is precisely the recipe for a bulged chamber which I think may have already started because case extraction from the chamber is harder than it should be. I will have to live with that but I wont allow it to progress further. I may be wrong but it is possible or it could just be a quirk of the gun or case length or something because its all new to me but time will tell. So anyway I weighed the powder charges that were in the charged cases and they held 7.7 grain of what looks like AA#9. I compared several other similar type powders but AA#9 was the best match. I lubed up some of the bullets with Lotak and after I figured out the breach seater started out loading three rounds with 5 grain of AA#9. At 100 yards the group was perfectly vertical at about 2.5" top to bottom. One of the fired cases collapsed at the mouth I believe indicating insufficent chamber pressure. The next three were with 6gn AA#9 and the POI cam up a couple inches and was round at about an inch or slightly. Another case collapsed at the mouth so pressure is still too low at 6gn. That was the end of daylight for today but I already have four rounds charged with 7gn AA#9 for tomorrow if I can sneak out there between casting sessions. By all indications this thing is going to shoot really well once I get the load dialed in. The gun is quite heave with a large fat but fairly short barrel. With all the weight recoil is about zero and the target stays in the field of view in the scope. Thats a big help when shooting small pest varmints to be able to spot your shots in the scope. This is certainly not a field piece but once it is set up near a dog town or gopher village anything that pops up within a couple hundred yards will be in a world of hurt. I have a whole bunch of powders with similar burn rate to AA#9 that in time I hope to try. Two new ones that we just got are AA 11-FS and TCM. Those and a few older similar powders should keep me busy for quite some time. Another nice plus with this rifle is the very low noise level. The small charges of fairly fast powders are consumed well within the rifle barrel length. One other observation I wanted to mention is about the Hoch action itself and that is that it is big!!! If its robust size is an indicator of it strength then I would say it a tank. Its it big but also precision made and snuggling up to the beast instills confidence something needed to win matches.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 26, 2023 17:31:45 GMT -7
Today Thursday 1/26/23 we are scrambling to get enough wood cut and split to get us through the weekend that they are saying our daily high temps will be below zero F. Wont be shooting much till it warms up aging. After we got a comfortable size pile of wood done I still had enough daylight to fire a few shots. The increase to 7 grain of AA#9 grouped well at .497" for three shots at 100 yards but I decided to move to a slower powder for a couple reasons. Reason #1 is that apparently I was right about the powder that came in the charges cases being AA#9 and working up to the charge weight that came in the charged cases at 7.7gn and being almost there at 7 grain I feel that the 7.7gn charge was a bit too hot judging from the condition of the fired primers that came in the fired cases that came with the rifle and the fact that when I got the rifle it was badly leaded for about three inches ahead of the chamber. My solvent loosened it up and it came out in strips at first the just sparkles on the patch then finally free of lead. Also someone from assra shooting a converted Stevens 25 RF mentioned in his fixed ammo that AA#9 seemed to work best for him in his converted rifle using shortened 22 hornet brass. That made me think a bit about how my rifle might be in comparison to his. Since he is shooting fixed ammo but I am breach seating bullets ahead of the case then my case volume is greater than his. Because I have to fill that void with something I have been using Styrofoam packing popcorn. That seems to be working good but I would rather have the case nearly filled with the right powder that will give the desired velocity of about 1400 fps but with nearly a case full of powder. Since I just got done loading some 500 S$W ammo for a customer for which I used WC-680 powder and thinking it is quite a bit slower that AA#9 but still in the proper burn rate bracket I just went ahead and used the WC-680. Since the pre charged cases that came with the rifle held 7.7gn of the faster AA#9 I felt a good place to start with the WC-680 was about 9 grain and that turned out to be a good safe starting load. The load progression went like this for three shot 100 yard groups, 9gn --- .925" 10gn --- .783" 11gn --- .476" The 11 grain powder charge only required a small amount of the PP just enough to stay in the case neck and keep the powder from falling out when loading. It seems to be progressing well and I plan on continuing with WC-680 for a bit until I figure out what a max charge is for best accuracy. Another area of testing has to be with primers. These loads were fired with standard small pistol primers but ball powders in this burn rate range of from AA#9 , H-110, and all three of the 680 powders including WC-680, Winchester 680, and AA# 1680 are notoriously hard to get consistent ignition from when used below their optimum pressure range which is about 40,000 psi which I am sure I am well below with this rifle. I like to use pistol primers starting out because they indicate high pressure sooner than a rifle primer will. There are still three primer types to try with magnum pistol, small rifle, and small rifle magnum. I should also mention that the max load tried of 7gn with the AA#9 gave a three shot 100 yard group of .497" but a fourth shot in that group opened it up about 50%. I just happened to have four of those loaded from yesterday. I think that with this rifle and bullet weight and breach seating the bullet that AA#9 is too fast to be optimum. No doubt it will shoot good groups but I think a slower powder will be better. I may even find that a powder slightly slower than the 680 powders will work best . Ideally what I am after is a powder that with a full case burns clean and gives the targeted 1400 fps velocity. With that powder no filler will be needed and just a card or lube wad in the case mouth just to hold the powder in may be the best possible set up. I dont know for sure as I am just getting started but seem to be on the right track. As for bullet alloy hardness the BHN-9 currently being used seems to well agree with the rifle. It is shooting good and seating easily. Probably wont get to shoot again until late next week when hopefully the weather is more agreeable. Stay tuned.
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Post by missionary on Jan 27, 2023 3:03:11 GMT -7
Very interesting Brother Dan ! We have gone through alot of 1680 in large Mag Revolvers in calibers.375+. I have not thought about the possible applications in a 22 Hornet or smaller cased .22. But once again the pursuit of a full case propelling a cast bullet beacons.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 27, 2023 8:43:31 GMT -7
The balance I want to find is a case filling powder that will burn clean and give very close to the targeted velocity of 1400 fps. WC-680 or any of the 680 powders may be the powder or something one or two positions slower on the burn rate chart. I am shooting a plain base bullet in a soft alloy so I think that velocity much over 1400 fps will begin to stray from top accuracy. This is a very efficient bullet and will have a decent BC so should still group well at 200 maybe even 300 yards if the wind is steady. I think it will be fun and interesting to see how well it can group out to 300 yards on a sunny calm spring day. Hopefully that is not too far off because I am getting a little burnt on battling cold and wind and snow. Yesterday I learned that the mold that came with the rifle was made by Dave Moss. That discovery was made by looking at 25 caliber rifles on the CPA Stevens site trying to find their chamber specs for the 25 hornet which they do offer. They showed the exact mold as being made by Dave Moss. Doing a little research on Dave Moss I found that he is a vet having depression / anxiety problems and has been through serious mistakes with wrong meds prescribed by PROFESSIONALS (pill pushers)! Apparently he is no longer making molds and that is too bad because he made good ones that with proper use will out last many users.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 27, 2023 11:30:32 GMT -7
Today I started the day out right by shooting. I have more wood to cut but just had to get out and try the next load progression with WC-680. Remember yesterday the I ended at 11 grain shooting at under .5 MOA. I could tell by the pistol primers being used that I was getting close to top end so I chose to add only .2gn powder for an 11.2gn charge. Well todays early bird shooting revealed that yesterdays 11gn charge was right at the top end of pressure for the soft bullet alloy. The 11.2gn load put the first two bullets 1.504" apart with the third about 8" away from the first two and made a perfect profile impact. Backing down to 10.9gn I got a .755" group that was a horizontal line. With the final today load of 10.9gn I was in a hurry so used some primed brass that came with the rifle. For that reason I do not know what the primer was. I am pretty sure though that with this powder and soft bullet alloy I will find its best accuracy somewhere between 10.7 and 11 grain. With 11 gn apparently being right at the raged edge for acceptable I think the best load will be found just slightly under that. I want to keep going for a bit with the WC-680 to refine the powder charge and try different primers. Since the max charge range for this powder still has some unfilled case volume I think I need to also look at a slightly slower burn rate or something with the same burn rate but greater bulk density like AA 5744. We have three new powders in about the same burn rate Acc - LT-30 , Acc-TCM , and Acc 11-FS. I think that by the time I progress to slower burn rate at about 4198 that the bulk density will be too great to hold enough powder to get to the desired 1400 fps but as is often the case I could be wrong.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 27, 2023 15:58:11 GMT -7
OK so we got a nice plump pile of wood all split up and ready for the approaching cold. The weather gurus are saying it will start dropping this PM and starting tomorrow and for the next couple days our highs will be in the single digits below zero and our lows will be in the double digits below zero. After we got the wood all split I still had time to shoot a little. I started looking at a powder burn rate chart and found Accurate # 2200 a few positions slower than WC-680 so decided to try that. Starting at 11.5gn AA2200 I shot a fair three shot group but didnt measure it. Instead I just decided to go to 12 gn and shoot the same group. Those two combined loads shot a .832" for the combined six shots. Wanting to try a group with the 12gn charge I loaded five cases with that charge. Those five rounds gave a .541" group. The 2200 powder very nearly fills the case so just a small tuft of PP is needed to hold the powder in the case. Just to see what if I also tried three shots with 12.5gn and that was where I went over the top and the grouping went wild. So I have a couple loads now that seem to want to hang right around the .5 MOA mark and that is not bad but I am surely not satisfied that its the best I can get. I think to start shaving off that half inch mark I will have to start weighing powder charges and bullets. So far bullets are just randomly chosen and powder charges thrown. If I am going to get this shaved down in group size I think all the BR tricks need to be applied including weighing brass and uniforming primer pockets. I also think I might switch from the old Weaver K-10 to an also old steel tube Weaver T-20 to maybe see the center of the bull a little better. One thing for sure I am well on my way.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 27, 2023 18:12:38 GMT -7
when i was doing the accuracy thing, weigh the brass and bullet, ream the neck....., i learned alot. now if it's a 3-4" 5 shot group at 150 yards then i'm satisfied. it got to point that i was spending more time on the reloading table than shooting. i guess it wasn't fer me, but i like to see someone who does.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 27, 2023 19:46:55 GMT -7
Going back to the burn rate chart this evening I found Alliant Reloader #7 a couple positions on the slower side of AA 2200. I thought RE-7 may be too bulky to get enough weight in the case but found that 12 gn RE -7 filled the case to about the same level as did 12 gn of 2200. I think about 12.5 gn will have the case totally full with maybe enough room for a thin wad. I have three loaded with the starting load of 12gn re-7 so next time out will try those but I dont expect that to be for a few days until after it warms up again. I commandeered Tina's plyer type paper punch and found it punches perfect 25 caliber wads so I punched out a bunch from a Styrofoam picnic plate. About 12.5gn RE-7 with one of those styro wads should give that 100% full case load and I am guessing stay within acceptable pressures but the jury is still out on weather it will produce the desired velocity. Lord willing we shall see.
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Post by missionary on Jan 28, 2023 1:43:00 GMT -7
Ya know Dan this all is as good as reading through Ken Waters "Pet Loads".
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 28, 2023 8:59:14 GMT -7
This place is somewhere that I can stop and capture my thoughts and then have a way to re-visit them. If not for that they would just spin out of control and be lost to everyone and as is often the case even me. It really helps me to organize my thoughts and keep them moving in a positive direction toward a goal. Sometimes life interrupts for short periods and without this reference I may not get back to where I was without repeating the process. This has been good for me and would be even if I was alone here but I am sure glad I am not.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 28, 2023 11:33:17 GMT -7
It just dawned on me that since I got this rifle and did the initial cleaning and de-leading that I have not cleaned the barrel. With a well balanced load with cast bullets the bore condition is almost a constant but in developing a load the bore conditions are not. This because in developing a load the different powder charge weights produce different chamber pressures that in tern will leave different amounts of powder fouling in the barrel. This can be especially true with ball powders that have burn deterrent coatings that can leave heavy fouling when used at below their optimum burn pressure. This fouling can build up to a point where accuracy suffers. With a well balanced load the fouling can be nearly a constant not continually building up to a point of impaired accuracy. Think of a 22 long rifle. Some small bore competitors will not clean their rifles bore once that constant fouled condition is achieved. If cleaned enough shots have to be fired to reach that condition again before consistent accuracy is possible. In this case with changing powders and loading to varying chamber pressures I am continually changing the bore condition. To counter those effects I think what I need to do is to at least run one dry patch through the bore for each load or powder change and or group. In reading books from the old masters I know that they did everything possible to ensure absolute consistency from shot to shot so I think the bore condition is another one of the things that for this type of loading should be addressed in order to realize the absolute full potential of the firearm. Henceforth I shall be aware.
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Post by missionary on Jan 28, 2023 12:06:34 GMT -7
Another of those fine points I am not real faithful in observing. I should start a "Always remember" list ad re-read it often.
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Post by missionary on Jan 31, 2023 6:02:28 GMT -7
Hey Dan... Is it cold outside there ?
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 31, 2023 9:02:09 GMT -7
Yes Sir still very cold well below zero but should start a warming trend starting today and head back into the mid 20's for our day time high in a couple days. I will consider the mid 20's shooting weather and try to keep moving forward with the 25 hornet. I have some cases charged with RE-7 I want to try. I checked with Pacific die and reamer about case length specks for the cartridge and according to their drawing the brass I got with the rifle may be a bit too short. Not sure though because they show two different 25 hornets one standard and one non standard and the one I checked was the standard. I was trying to avoid it but I guess the only way to be sure is to cast the chamber. If the brass is too short that is another area to look at for accuracy improvement. I have a custom 1902 smokeless rolling block that I had put on a 38-55 barrel I had picked up at a gun show. I told the man that I had install the barrel that I wanted the chamber length to be cut to the 375 Winchester length because I wanted to be able to use cheaper 30-30 brass. After getting the rifle back and shooting it with the reformed 30-30 brass and having fits with the inconsistent accuracy at one point I even laid a hack saw to the barrel out of pure spiteful revenge but managed to contain my anger. Good thing too because once I figured out the problem I have since won a postal match with that rifle and Jr. in his under six foot form used it to good effect on long range buffalo gong shoots. The problem as I later found was that the GUN SMITH I went to later told me he sent it out for the work because he couldn't cut the right thread for the roller. It had been a High Wall barrel in a previous life. He had not given instruction on the chamber length and since the barrel was already stamped 38-55 he cut the chamber to 38-55 length. After I started using the correct length brass that rifle settled down and became a good consistently accurate shooter and a winner of matches. Now with this rifle I think I may be looking at something similar. The person I got the rifle from obviously did not have a handle on making the rifle perform as evidenced by other issues that arrived with it so this could be another. I guess if I am to realize the full potential of the rifle I am going to have to cast the chamber and fit brass more precisely to it. Right now though to answer your question again yup its way to cold for anything other than research sitting here at the computer a few feet away from the wood stove.
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Post by missionary on Jan 31, 2023 9:53:04 GMT -7
Reads like a good time to do that chamber cast. Makes me think maybe with all pre-1900 chambers it might not be a bad idea to start all new shooting projects with a chamber cast. Might just eliminate alot of grabbing a hacksaw.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 31, 2023 11:29:20 GMT -7
Maybe so , could be like getting all new and more accurate rifles. The hacksaw thingy was actually what I thought might be a remedy for the inconsistent accuracy. Before I found out about the chamber the only thing I could think of that might be causing the inconsistent accuracy was with barrel harmonics. Even after being shortened the barrel is still 32" so bullet dwell time is long at the low velocity I load them to. I wanted to keep the long sight radios because a barely legal barrel length would relegate it to scope only for sights but I like it with the old Parts Unknown sight I use on it. Having enough life experience to know not to make important decisions in anger I refrained from use of the hack saw as a remedy. Right now I am playing catch up with casting orders. As I type I am waiting for the casting shed to warm up with the fire I just got going in the wood stove there . I whimped out for a couple days but now have to brave to cold and get caught up. This is when we go through wood fast with three stoves going in the house and one in the casting shed.
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Post by missionary on Jan 31, 2023 14:15:32 GMT -7
4 stoves would be alot of hungry mouths.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 9, 2023 12:34:26 GMT -7
Since my last installment here I have been insanely busy with orders. Our cold weather left and is now back again but not quite so bad as last time. I did manage to get some shooting done while the temps were better. Unfortunately I made no gains and will have to repeat some the shooting. The reason is that some of the powders and loads I had rejected as poor were due to barrel leading that I didnt discover until accuracy became terrible. Because of the possible progressive build up of leading I have to go all the way back to where I know the barrel was clean. At this point I can not say for sure if the leading was progressive or if it was caused solely by one of the several new powders tried since the last successes. The only way to be sure is to shoot them over again and clean between powders and groups. I had been running a dry patch through the barrel between groups and had not noticed any issues with the patch dragging on a leaded area. When I first got the rifle before I shot it I cleaned lead out of the barrel but that fouling was just ahead of the chamber for a few inches. This time it was about six inches back from the muzzle. The only things I can think of that would cause that are either lube deficiency which I will jus cancel out knowing the efficiency of our lube. The other thing is that since I have been going for nearly 100% case volume loads with progressively slower powders I very likely have exceeded the velocity limits of the very soft alloy. The fact that the leading is near the muzzle may indicate that that is the point that velocity becomes excessive for the alloy strength from the continued push of the slower burning powders continuing to accelorate the bullet all the way down the barrel. It may well be that only one of those powders is responsible but there is no way to tell without shooting them again and insuring the barrel is clean each time. This whole experience got me to thinking about the two different breach seating systems that were commonly used when this type of shooting was originally being done. There was the type of lever system that I am using to introduce the bullet into the barrel from the breach end and there was also the Pope system that introduced the bullet from the muzzle through a false muzzle starter. I can now see from this experience that at least in this case the Pope system may have been superior because in seating the bullet from muzzle to breach there would have been a positive feel of the fouling when the bullet reached that point in the barrel. I have an idea that one of the last powders tried deserves all the blame and moving forward I will not work at load development without using a chronograph. Weather was crappy and I was anxious to get started with the rifle but I now think that the chronograph would have told the story of at what velocity things started to go bad. Knowing that number and staying below it should be a big help in preventing the problem with the soft alloy bullets. I could make harder bullets but then there is greater resistance to seating bullets fully into the barrel. I guess there will be a compromise found there eventually between ease of bullet seating and acceptable velocity. This is going to take longer than I thought but the search is the pleasant spice.
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Post by missionary on Feb 10, 2023 5:28:00 GMT -7
Are you getting a lube star at the muzzle ? Could it be there is not enough lube ? Try the "nose dip or smear" before seating. 32" is a long tube for a .25 to carry enough lube.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2023 12:11:43 GMT -7
Yes there is a lube star but from when is the question. Since I have not been wiping it who knows. The bullet design has four lube grooves so I think is carrying plenty of lube. This 25 hornet rifle has a 25" barrel not a 32" If I mentioned a 32" it was about the 38-55 that started out longer but when the original threads for a high wall were cut off then rethreaded for a rolling block it is now 32" I really dont know what the issue was but I better pay closer attention from now on. From now on when working on loads I need to have the chronograph on the bench as well as a cleaning rod and cleaning supplies. That means shooting is off for awhile until warmer weather is here to stay. At least I got the ""have to shoot it"" out of the way and know that it will shoot at least in the .4's when properly fed. I got a .257" sizer die and want to turn the necks on some brass and see if I can get it to shoot reasonably well with fixed ammo. Dont know why for sure other than just want to.
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