|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 31, 2022 17:15:08 GMT -7
I mentioned recently acquiring a Sharps rifle in 40-90 Sharps BN. First a little about the rifle. I can only guess but am pretty sure this is a recent rebuild done by C. Sharps of Big Timber MT. I say so because the new 30" medium taper octagon barrel is so stamped. The rifle is in about as new condition but I dont think its original condition. I think then when C. Sharps re-barreled this they rebuilt the entire rifle including re case coloring. The receiver is devoid of any identifying marks but because of the shape of the side plate under the hammer it looks to have had some re-shaping done. The reshaped portion is where the primer feed would have been if this were originally a percussion Sharps rifle. Another thing that makes me believe this may be a conversion from percussion to center fire is the breach block appears new and is a completely different color than any other part of the rifle plus the fact that it has the new type small firing pin. On my 45-90 rebuild the breach block still have the original large firing pin but I believe that rifle to be a much older conversion.
One other thing that may also point to this as having been a percussion rifle is that it is a single trigger. The wood also appears to have been replaced and the case colored butt plate appears shiny new. It also has the pewter fore end tip that seems pretty standard on C. Sharps rifles. I should also mention that this barrel has a .408" diameter groove depth with a 1/18" rifling twist rate
Its another rifle that is something of a mystery much like my Texas Sulfur River Armory rifle and well I just like the mystery.
Now a little about the cartridge. I did a lot of searching and found that as is so often the case no one really seems to know for sure how to make the cartridge perform and there is a lot of regurgitated information that is simply not true. So with that I set out on my own to learn about the cartridge and how to get the most from my rifle. Something I did learn from research is that with my 1/18" twist to prevent bullet yaw at long range the bullet should not exceed 1.3" in length. I therefor set my adjustable length Tom Ballard mold for a conventional lube groove type bullet to drop a bullet at 1.275" and that is the bullet I have done all testing with so far.
Something I learned right away about this bottle neck cartridge is that unlike straight wall cases and black powder that some amount of powder compression usually improves velocity uniformity but not so with this 2.6" bottle neck case. First off with this case compressing the powder causes excessive case stretching and leads to case separation long before anything resembling good case life. Likewise powder compression generates much higher than normal pressures and velocities compared to straight wall cases. For example a charge of only 75 grain of FFG with about .250" compression produced 1500 fps with the 370 grain bullet as well as producing dismal accuracy.
I think what I am seeing here is that the bottle neck case shape in itself has about the same effect on powder burn as does powder compression in a straight wall case. Until I figured this out accuracy was poor at best but after the fact accuracy is very good at what I consider normal velocity for black powder at about 1300 fps.
Since this Ballard bullet has a fairly short ogive the bullet has to be fairly deep seated to eliminate any resistance to chambering a round. For this reason and the fact that powder compression is out I cant get close to the volume of powder that the cartridge name indicates, 90 grains. For the sake of testing extended round count without powder fouling issues I have settled on a duplex load using .5cc of IMR 4895 powder to help keep fouling in check. The small charge of smokeless powder does little to increase velocity but helps greatly in keeping a consistent barrel condition that otherwise can be a problem in our current cold weather. Blow tubing in sub freezing temps is out because the introduced moistier that helps so much to keep the BP fouling soft in hot weather freezes in cold weather compounding the hard fouling issue.
Also because compression is out so full volume charges are out I decided to go with FFFG grade powder to get the highest velocity with allowable powder volume. My best load so far and a darn good one is with the .5cc 4895 and 65gn by weight of FFFG BP. I am placing a small amount of styrofoam packing popcorn between the bullet and the powder because it takes up no space in the case but keeps enough hold on the powder column that the two powders wont mix as if they were loose in the case.
I started out using a Walters fiber wad but found that it added another step to the loading process in that the bullet bases had to be cleaned where as with the styro wad it is not necessary. The tip was finding a fiber wad hit the fresh snow at about 99 yards just in front of the target while most were scattered about 10 yards in front of the shooting bench. With the styro wad they just turn to dust from the chamber pressure and if anything does stay with the bullet it is pretty much weightless so has little to no effect one the POI from shot to shot.
So that is about where I am right now with at least one good load with a grease groove bullet . At the close of the day today I also got out another adjustable weight Tom Ballard paper patch mold I have never used before. I bought it as well as the same type Ballard mold in 50 caliber this year with the sole purpose of saving them from being damaged by the vendor that was letting them rust. The 50 works great in my 50-90 and today is my first use of the adjustable 40 cal PP. Just as with the grease groove bullet I set this one to drop a bullet of 1.275" length. As I type I have 50 + of them set by the stove to dry the patches. I chose to wet patch these with a 9lb cotton bond paper. I still have much to learn about this horse of a different color BPC and Lord willing will be blessed with the time to do so.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 1, 2023 9:42:41 GMT -7
I am going to have to make a correction on the bullet weight that I had not yet weighed but just took a stab at. Both the Ballard bullets the paper patch and the grease groove are set at the same length at 1.275" but since the PP is a tapered design it is lighter than the GG. The GG bullet in the very soft alloy I cast them in weighs 310 grain where as the PP in the same alloy weighs only 280 grain. I just got done loading three cartridges with the PP bullet with the same load as the GG that shot well. Just waiting on some sun shine and maybe a little jump in the mercury on the temp stick.
This will be interesting because even though the bullets are the same length because the PP is tapered it can be seated to a much longer COAL than the GG bullet. I can say this for sure that with all that bullet and paper outside the case it makes for a very long impressive looking cartridge.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 1, 2023 10:29:08 GMT -7
Picture of the 40-90 Sharps Bottleneck cartridges Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 1, 2023 10:56:52 GMT -7
Have a friend in ILL-nois that has a 40-90 who only shot PP. He really spoke highly of the cartridge as an excellent 500 + yard cartridge.
Everything I have read about 40-90 Bottleneck speaks of using PP.
Only Bottleneck BPC I have messed with is 43 Spanish. Grooved loads were never as good as PP.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 1, 2023 15:51:07 GMT -7
I got to try some of the PP bullets today but sorry to say results were poor. Not deterred though because my initial results with the GG bullets were about the same. When I got the rifle I got three different batches of brass with it each having substantially different neck wall thickness. The rifles chamber seems tight a good thing but it means I have to pay close attention to case neck diameters of loaded rounds or chambering can become an issue. The brass that came with the rifle three boxes one each of Norma, Bertram, and WW super made from stretched 348 Win brass. I full length sized all after trimming and expanded the necks with what ever diameter expander came in the RCBS die set. I dont know what that is yet as I have not checked. After sizing and expanding all case necks the OD of each brand is WW @ .427", Norma @ .431" and Bertram @ .433" diameters.
What I found with the GG bullet is that with a .410" diameter bullet case neck diameter could not exceed .429" before bullet seating or chambering was a problem. With the PP bullet I have the problem in reverse. The patched bullet diameter is barely .407" at the very base of the bullet then tapers smaller from there. That is after patching with the 9 lb paper. In this case the thicker neck wall brass was needed to get enough hold on the bullet that it could not be easily pulled from the case.
Now with that arrangement in place and getting poor accuracy I have to try and figure out the why. I shot a 20 round box today by two's and three shots each time tweaking the load. I cant be certain because the target was getting pretty shot up adding to yesterdays shooting but the last two loads tried may have been improving things. I dont know but will have to try more. Today I only juggled the components I had bit I think I need to also try maybe a softer alloy even pure lead and maybe a thicker paper like 16 lb or maybe staying with the 9lb paper but cutting a template to get three wraps with the patch.
In the tail end of todays episode what seemed to be working best with the PP bullet was far different than what worked best with the GG bullet. Today because I thought the too small diameter bullet coupled with perhaps too hard an alloy needed a wee bit more kick in the butt I went to .7cc of the priming charge of 4895 where yesterday with the GG bullet I used .5cc On the same idea of more kick in the butt I went from only filling the case to the base of the shoulder with 65 gn of FFG to filling the case to about 1/4" from the mouth with 80gn of FFFG. After dropping the BP and vibrating the case to settle the powder the bullet was seated to just touch the powder with no compression. That combo made for a very long cartridge with about 3/4 of the bullet outside the case. That is what seemed to work best though so I will pursue that path with future efforts. I kind of like the idea of filling that whole case with powder because I bet it will give some impressive velocities that may be a plus for hunting. It should also flatten trajectories for what would be normal hunting ranges for iron sighted rifles.
Anyway I always enjoy the challenge and have no doubt that given time I will overcome. As in many things its the chase that is appealing and almost a let down when its over even if its been a total success but there is always another challenge just around the corner. So many guns and so little time !
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 1, 2023 18:29:19 GMT -7
Alrighty then its on !!! Tonight after a great dinner with some of the kids over I made a new template to cut patches to just the right length to get three wraps on the Ballard PP bullet. Now with three wraps of the 9lb paper the base diameter is .4105" just a tiny bit larger .0005" than the .410" of the GG bullet and .035" larger than the first tried PP bullets with two wraps at .407" diameter.
This should make a difference but the case neck wall thickness comes into play again. Now with the patched bullet diameter about the same as a GG bullet I will have to go back to the thinner neck wall brass or seating bullets will become a nightmare.
I remember Mr. Newtons observation of energy that to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and it seems to apply to loading ammo as well.
BTW dinner was great with those fresh steaks the Lord provided and fresh baked bread out of the oven of the wood cook stove is heavenly. Maybe more to look forward to too as our Son Tony was running the wrecker to pull a semi out of the ditch. The truck was filled with bags of flour and since the wreck was only about a mile from our house Tony brought us 400 pounds of flour. I do love fresh bread too its the meat of vegetables. Fresh bread from the wood cook stove makes cutting firewood so much more meaningful !
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 2, 2023 14:09:52 GMT -7
"" I thought I was wrong once before but I was incorrect"" Ah but this time I really was right. The triple wrap patch made all the difference in the world. This too with the full load. Well with the .7cc kicker and 80gn weight of fffg should be about the volume equivalent of the full 90gn charge the cartridge is named for. I am very anxious to see what this load chronographs to.
With this load to get the bullet seated to an OAL that chambers easily after vibrating the charged case to settle the powder the bullet is compressing the settled powder column .060". Hopefully that small amount of compression will not have the case stretching effect that 1/4" of powder compression had. We shall see after a few loading cycles.
So I now have two good shooting loads both with Ballard bullets one each in GG and PP but very different loads. The PP load should be a humdinger for hunting out to about 300 yards once I get all the sight settings charted.
It didnt really take that much effort to sort things out with this rifle but I will say it does seem finicky to any changes in the variables. Even brass within a lot from the same manufacturer made a big difference. Today while neck expanding some Bertram brass I could easily feel that about half the box of brass had no felt resistance while half the brass from the same box had substantial felt resistance in both directions in and out. For todays shooting with the three wrap paper patch I used only the brass with not felt resistance and all was well. I have not yet confirmed but believe the tighter neck half of the box of brass will not be well suited to the triple wrap patch because seating in the tight neck will deform the patch.
So I am at a cross road where before with the conventional two wrap patch the thicker neck brass was just about right and with the larger diameter GG bullet the thinner brass was right. Now in order to get good consistent accuracy from the Ballard PP bullet I need three wraps of the patch which also requires the thinner brass. What I have to decide is weather or not I should turn the case necks of the thicker brass to all be the same as the thinner brass. I think that is what I will need to do but I could be wrong because I thought I was wrong once before but I was incorrect.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 3, 2023 1:33:33 GMT -7
Good Morning Dan
1st time I read your last post the thinking device said "This is just like our first 43 Spanish". Ended up having to neck turn all the brass to shoot a .445 lubed cast (NEI) of Range scrap or a .440 PP. Took awhile but happily those turned neck brass have served well in all the 43 SP. rifles and carbines we have owned or still have.
Having read your last post again this AM I still agree. Two accurate loads is something to rejoice about. Especially looking forward to next hunting season and a summer of enjoying a fine old Sharps.
Which reminds me I never rebarreled that one roller to 50-70.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 3, 2023 8:36:33 GMT -7
So many guns and so little time. I feel like a Godfather to all of them in helping them to realize their full potential. Maybe I should change my avatar name to The Godfather.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 4, 2023 5:46:22 GMT -7
If you do that I may have to start carrying that pearl handled long skinny knife with the funny button on the side... sure was useful to cut open envelopes and the tape on primer boxes.
When our two boys were going through M1 Carbine ammo like gang busters the youngest had the job of cutting open those little 100 packs and filling Dillon primer tubes. He got the biggest thrill out of watching that blade "snick" into place. Those sure were pleasant fun days.
How many times can a soda can get perferated with a 125 grain RNGC at 25 yards before the fishing line holding it up swinging, dancing broke. If ya missed carbine got passed to next shooter. He who just missed loaded his mags. He who was now next shooter waiting counted hits and took count on shooters can marking the shooters tally. They sure enjoyed to beat ol dad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 4, 2023 8:41:04 GMT -7
That does sound like fun. I wanna play too.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 4, 2023 14:56:21 GMT -7
Before this story comes to a close I would like to make some corrections. First off I was wrong about the amount of flour Tony brought us. It was 350 pounds not 400 pounds. There were seven 50 pounds bags.
Secondly as seems to often be the case I was wrong again about the load with the paper patch bullet. When I loaded these I was using an RCBS powder drop with the large drum installed. With that drum and the adjuster full out I thought it was throwing 80gn by weight but my powder scale says it is actually 67 grain actual weight. That puts the BP charge much closer to the charge used for the GG bullet at 65 grain. The PP load is using .7cc of 4895 where the GG load uses .5cc. The GG bullet weight is 310gn where the PP is 280gn. This all made sense when I chronographed both loads at 1337 fps for the GG bullet and 1357 fps for the PP bullet. Not barn stormer loads but right dead center at a velocity that seems magic for so many cartridges. For instance the original 45-70-405 is listed as giving 1330 fps as well as likely the most popular cartridge on earth the 22 LR with its standard HV load with a 40gn bullet at guess what 1330 fps.
On a side note I found it interesting reading in Spence Wolfs book about loading original arsenal type ammo for the 45-70 that he states that ammo submissions for purchase by the gov had to test at between 1270 and 1330 fps for acceptance. This likely due to too great a divergence from sight calibrations if the ammo was outside those specs.
One very nice coincidence I discovered yesterday is that both loads for the 40-90 shoot to very close to the same poi with maybe a 2" vertical separation. But then again that could be due to the nut that holds on the trigger.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 5, 2023 4:45:20 GMT -7
That 1300 fps has been very useful with all soft cast ammo. Makes 150 yard impacts very authoritative. I cannot write anything about farther away as I have never fired on a corn cruncher past 115 yards or maybe a grenade throw farther.
But once we started nearly all our hunting in river bottoms, woods / thickets and drain ditches, 1100-1200 fps with range scrap and 40-1 took are of all or needs. Flintlocks and recurve bows handled 90% of all needs with revolvers or old cartridge rifles (Frank Wesson, Spencer, 1873...) plopped in here and there. Well some Krags and other US military rifles do sneak in also.
So Dan are ya going to tweek those loads a few hairs here and there to see if they can get out to 800 yards ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 5, 2023 8:20:03 GMT -7
"""So Dan are ya going to tweek those loads a few hairs here and there to see if they can get out to 800 yards ?"""
I think long range will be a problem for this rifle because of the too slow twist rate 1/18" limiting the bullet length to 1.3" A longer bullet will have some wabble which in turn destroys the BC so drop and more importantly wind drift are greatly exaggerated.
The guys shooting long range with 40 calibers are shooting bullets up to 1.6" long using as fast as 1/13" rifling twist rates.
I think this will make a good mid range rifle for ranges out to about 500 yards but for longer ranges you really need those high BC bullets to keep wind drift at a minimum. I am good with 500 yards though for just for fun long range shooting. 500 covers a silhouette course nicely. As for hunting maybe about half that distance and depending on having established sight settings at 25 yard intervals and knowing precisely the range to the target. I think the 280gn paper patch bullet cast in pure lead should work nicely for that and will still expand even at the reduced velocity at practical ranges which as I said I feel is about 250 yards or maybe even 300 yards if conditions are perfect.
With what little shooting I have done with this rifle I have quickly come to like it as it shoots easy. By that I mean NO PAIN. My 45-90 and 50-90 when loaded for long range with high BC bullets have that one little negative aspect that there is some bit of discomfort to tolerate but with this 40-90 and its max bullet weights of not much over 300 grain not so it just shoots easy. There is a lot to like there though in that it shoots easy, has 500 yard target capability, and 300 yard hunting capability. What modern day hunter shooting his modern high power magnum scoped rifle can make the same claim ? From what I have witnessed of other hunters the answer is few.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 5, 2023 9:49:43 GMT -7
I have only shot our Ballard #5 out to 100 yards as we only have 5 pieces of brass. Ad I was not impressed with the 2 loads I tried.
But being honest it was all a cobbled together attempt wit that 40-65 cartridge.
I do agree that 300 yards is a practical desire under the best conditions. For me, if I cannot get to 150 yards, then I need to crawl lower.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 5, 2023 16:29:51 GMT -7
"" crawl lower"" I like that term. So to close the range to 50 yards you have to become as a snake. This year for our one week muzzleloader season I only went out once due mostly to some really foul weather as well as being busy filling orders.
Our neighbors called and told us they had a heard of elk on the BLM land adjacent to their property. It was cold and blowing and the fresh snow was about half way to my knees in the open but about half way to my waist un the gullies where the blowing snow settles. It was the day before the end day of the season so I thought I better give it at least one good effort. I drove to the neighbors place about four miles away but the gate going into BLM land was drifted in and impassible. I glassed the hills from there and spotted a small heard of about 20 or so head of elk about maybe 2 miles from the truck. I bundled up good and wore my Korean war snow camo parka over everything else. It was tough going and with the blowing snow only able to see in one direction, down wind.
I finally made it to about the last quarter mile where I could see the heads of some beaded elk on top of the ridge. I studied the lay of the land and used every bit of cover available and staying down wind was able to get to about 150 to 175 yards then there was no cover left and I believe they were starting to hear the snow crunch under me because a couple of them stood and looked around nervously.
I was shooting a 45 caliber loaded with a 360gn LBT-WFN pure lead bullet that shot ever so good at 100 yards and I decided that 125 was my max range. Well I sat there or half sat and half laid back to be out of sight getting cold from the wind and sweet I worked up getting there waiting for them to stand and start feeding toward the ranch bottoms where they had been going at night.
I though it was going to work out well since they had to move toward me to get there. After a while the whole heard stood and milled nervously all looking in the same direction. After a bit I spotted what it was they were looking at which was a coyote circling the heard at about 100 yards no doubt looking for an injured animal. Anyway the heard started slowly moving away from me and even though I was able to use available cover to stay with them I could not gain on them so after it became obvious I lost this one I headed back to the truck. I was pretty played out when I got there and thinking maybe it was good I didn't get one. All I needed was just to gain 50 yards and I would have been in good range but to get that last 50 yards I would have had to crawl under the snow because there was just nothing above the snow that I could use for cover. Even though it failed to produce an elk it was still a rewarding hunt. I felt pretty good for an old guy getting to within 150 yards of 25 sets of elk eyes in treeless open sage country blanketed in snow. It felt good to just be out there in Gods beautiful creation and even better to know I could still do it.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Jan 6, 2023 3:41:57 GMT -7
Thank you for that elk hunt. It is a joy to be out with the critters in this huge expanse that God has Blessed us with.
Burrowing through deep snow may be about my personal limits also. I recon how hungry we were would be the real deciding factor.
|
|
