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Post by Bullshop on Dec 5, 2023 16:55:14 GMT -7
Is your 44 the original type with tube feed or is it the deerfield with the detachable rotary mag.
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Post by missionary on Dec 6, 2023 6:27:44 GMT -7
The Ruger tube feed is a rare one...
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 6, 2023 16:55:57 GMT -7
Sorry for the delay in replying to the question. My Ruger 44 carbine is the tube fed variant, I didn’t know they were rare though. Funny story I bought that carbine, a universal 30 cal carbine, a German P08 Luger and a Stevens 311R from a lady on my mail route probably going on 20 years ago. She and her husband had a couple of duplexes and she said at times some renters would pay her husband with guns when they were short on cash. Now don’t beat me up too bad as she priced all the guns. I believe I paid $150 for the Ruger, $100 for the Universal, $250 for the Luger, $100 for the Stevens and one I forgot a pre war Colt official police for $100. Ive never seen another one of the Stevens 311Rs it’s got an 18” barrel and it’s in 20ga. The blue book says they were made for law enforcement. It’s a handy little package for home defense.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 6, 2023 20:56:37 GMT -7
That Ruger tube feed goes back to about 1965 I would guess. The 44 mag was an official cartridge in 55. The 44 carbine seems to have had a short production life and dropped. It took about another 30 years for Ruger to try again with a 44 mag carbine and they came out with three choices. The semi auto that looks much like yours was called the Deerfield. It did away with the tube mag and went with a beefed up 10-22 looking rotary mag. The other choices also used the same mag and were one a lever action and one a bolt action. My only beef with all three is the mag which is very limited in cartridge length. You end up having to seat many cast bullet designs past the crimp groove which is not good for the 44 mag cartridge. Without the crimp bullets can move forward in recoil on cartridges in the mag and lock things up. With light non case filling charges of fast powders the bullet can also be pushed into the case and raise pressures dramatically. With powders that make the 44 a magnum the heavy crimp in a dedicated crimp groove is necessary for ballistic uniformity of ignition of the slower powders. Even Elmer would concur with that and he even stated specifically with 2400 powder his #1 choice for the 44 mag a heavy crimp was needed for proper burn of the powder.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 7, 2023 1:40:48 GMT -7
My Ruger 44 carbine has the tube, much like a Marlin model 60 it’s just beefed up quite a bit for the 44. I’ll try to do a search and see if the Ruger website has a good date for the serial number. I’ve shot a bunch of cast hand loads in it and so far haven’t had any issues. I can sure see how the magazine could limit the OAL of the 44, I imagine they would have a hard time shooting anything over a 240gr bullet. I’ve had the rifle for about 20 years now but I’ve never hunted with it and for that matter haven’t killed anything with it but it would make for a bad day for a two legged varmit any day!!
I just got done looking up the Ruger 44 carbine in the newest copy of the blue book I have, probably 3 or 4 years old if I had to guess. My buddy that owns a gun store usually gives me last years when he gets a new one. He’s a guy all here would like I’m sure, he was born with a birth defect, he doesn’t have normal arms, maybe I should say common that doesn’t sound quite so judgmental in my mind. Anyway he only has arms to about where my elbows are and he only has a thumb and somewhat of an index finger. Most people nowadays wouldn’t work or would think they couldn’t. He worked at a shooting supply store for close to 20 years and when the man and woman that started the store passed on he bought it. I guess it’s close to 10 years now. Mr Dan you will love the name of the store! It’s called the guntrader! Sounds like a place you could find something interesting huh?
Sorry! Got off topic! So I looked in the blue book and Ruger started making the 44 carbine in 1959 and continued to make them until 1985. I think you may have been thinking about them calling it the “deerstalker” for a short time. The book said they stopped because Ithaca was going to sue them cause they felt the name was too close to their model 37 variation they called the “deer slayer”. This was in 1962 so if you find one that says deer slayer on the barrel it’s vintage for sure! I also found out they made an international variant that had a full stock, I never knew that. Last thing I’ll mention is the book doesn’t make any allowance for a tube fed or a magazine carbine. All the book says is 4 shot magazine. So does that mean a tube is the same as a detachable magazine? I would think if the tube fed is in any way rare they would list it like they do for other guns that have some little quality that makes it sought after. If anyone has any information about why they switched from the tube to the detachable rotary magazine I’d love to hear it.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 7, 2023 9:19:51 GMT -7
It sounds like they are not at all addressing the newer deer field model which is to my knowledge a completely different rifle from the original. I am also pretty sure the newer one was named by Ruger The DeerField. The problem with cartridge length is not so much bullet weight as it is design. When Elmer designed his bullet I think its the 429421 he designed it to have enough nose length past the crimp groove that it would make a cylinder length cartridge having a good portion of its length outside the case making more room for powder inside the case. That makes for a long cartridge compared to other bullet designs with shorter nose length. Bullets that were designed for black powder wont even have a crimp groove because the were intended to have the base set down on the powder and the mouth of the case crimped over the ogive of the bullet making for quite a short cartridge length. That does not work so well today because many of the non magnum performance powders we use do not fill the case to the base of the bullet so there is little to keep bullets from being pushed into the case and increasing the chamber pressure of the load. Crimping over the ogive only prevents the bullet from moving out of the case but does nothing to prevent the bullet from being pushed into the case. With a Keith bullet with deep beveled crimp groove it has both functions.
There are other designs in the same calibers of the same weight with shorter nose length in front of the crimp groove so some will work fine in the rotary mag when properly crimped but some like the Keith bullet may not. In that case though you can solve the problem by going to 44 special cases. Elmer designed hi bullet with the longer nose to hopefully improve long range performance and that seems to have worked pretty good. He said the H&G bullet worked pretty good for long range but being a round nose lacked killing effect and that his design with flat nose lacked nothing in that ragard.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 7, 2023 12:42:56 GMT -7
I honestly can’t remember at the moment but I think way back when I read in Sixguns that when Keith was experimenting with what would become the 44 magnum he was using 44 special cases and just went all the way as far as deciding how much was enough and how much was too much. Those must of been great days to live out in the remote places of the west before bunches of Cali implants started buying up the small spreads after they finally got tired of all the BS, environment al zealots in Cali passing some of the dumbest laws ever. Anyway I thought it was interesting during that time Keith decided he needed more power than the standard 44 special offered so he started experimenting and over time developed the 44 mag we know and live today! I think that’s just a cool story, that a regular guy can influence the gun/ammo industry.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 7, 2023 12:59:32 GMT -7
Elmer did a lot of shooting with the 44 special. His load was 18.5 grain of 2400 with his 250 grain bullet that we now know as the Lyman 429421. The purpose of the 44 mag case being 1/10" longer than the 44 special case was so that they wouldnt chamber in a 44 special that may have been built on a smaller weaker frame. As for power his 44 special load was not lacking. When the longer 44 mag case came out he had to add more powder to get the same performance. He upped the charge of 2400 to 21 grain for the longer case and I believe the velocity increase was about 100 fps over his hot 44 special load. He estimated his 44 special load at about 1200 fps where his 44 mag load is about 1300 fps.
He was limited in powder choices compared to what we have available now. Before 2400 it was Dupont # 80 then when Hercules came out with 2400 it was a major improvement. We now have slow burning powders that can push his bullet up to about 1500 fps. Just imagine if he had then what we have now !
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Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 7, 2023 19:34:51 GMT -7
Rob, I have read that in Korea's very frigid winter weather, the north Koreans & Chinese wore very heavily padded clothing, & many times the .30 carbine wouldn't penetrate far enough to disable the soldier. I knew a friend that was in the Engineer Corps. in Korea, that had to give up his Garand & was issued a carbine. He told his nephew Jim, who was my best friend at the time, that the carbine was useless. When I bought mine, Jim told me that I wasted my money. I have owned 5 of them, & another friend had 2 ex military, & 1 Universal, & none of them would come near to shooting accurately, as my "National Postal Meter" carbine that was made in late 1943, or very early 1944. As for Ruger chambering their Blackhawk in .30 carbine, my friend Richard Gordon bought one. I only fired it twice, & told him "Never again". It was very loud, I think, even louder than my then Ruger 3 screw Flat top Blackhawk .44 Magnum. Those were good times, as I had my reloading stuff except the .30 dies. Richard bought the dies, powder, bullets, & primers. I did the reloading, & got to shoot for free--late 1960's into early 1970's when I got married in Oct. 1973, moved 170 miles away from the farm, & only have about 35 yards behind my house to the creek, so only shoot pistols & pellet rifles here. It's almost 30 miles to the conservation club that I joined 3 years ago, to be able to sight in my muzzleloaders & Trapdoor for deer season.
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Post by missionary on Dec 8, 2023 6:06:16 GMT -7
In defense of the M1 Carbine it was designed for rear area troops who needed a weapon handy as sappers and snipers were still an issue. Jeep drivers, aircraft spotters, truck haulers, cooks, clerks and so forth generally could not hit a cow at 20 paces with a 1911A1. So anyway the carbine came along. The Army demanded it had the power to penetrate German helmets and it did that well. Again it was not made to take the place of the M1 Garand. But front line troops have to carry all their "life" on their backs. So the opportunity to loose 3 pounds of rifle and 5 pounds of ammo was available. Two more grenades! Plus now on hand was a 15 round mag! The Battle of the Bulge brought up the heavy clothing issue past 50 yards. But the carbine continued on and especially in the Pacific where heavy clothing was not issued the carbine did a fine job as the real shooting ranges were seldom very far.
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Post by todddoyka on Dec 8, 2023 10:04:57 GMT -7
there is someone on youtube that tried a 30 Carbine and how far it penetrated North Korean winter clothes. it penetrated the clothing, cow/pig shoulder and went out of the clothing. i don't remember if it was 50 or 100 yards.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 8, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -7
From my research and what I was told in the Army, the M1 30 cal carbine came about pretty much like Mike said, as a replacement for the M1911A1. So if you view it as more of a replacement for the 45 and not an actual battle rifle it makes a lot more sense. I had never heard about it not penetrating theNorth Koreans or Chinese soldiers winter clothing, thanks for sharing that Gary.
This is off topic but I don’t think anyone is gonna be upset. When Gary was talking about his OM Blackhawk flattop it reminded me of one gun id love to own but it got away from me. A guy from work about 10 years ago called me and said he was looking for a hi capacity 9mm pistol and could I find him one. I said that I thought I could and how much did he wanna spend. He said he really would rather trade some of the other pistols he had for it. Well that’s what I would rather do as well. I went to my friends gun store and bought a brand new Sig 226 and think I paid between $7-$800 bucks, I didn’t want to get him anything I wouldn’t carry. We met at his house and I showed him the pistol and he loved it! Then he took me into the other room and there on the table all laid out were a S&W 14 like new, S&W 36 like new, Colt officers model revolver in 22 mag( they only made 800) Colt 1903 pocket 32 cap and Finally a 71/2” Ruger OM Blackhawk 44 mag with. Are you ready? A brass frame and factory stag grips!!! I about fell off my chair! Of course that was his favorite even though he said he had never even fired it! It was the most beautiful Ruger I’ve ever seen. After looking at the others he said “ you can pick any 3 of the others ones if you want to trade for the 9mm”). I picked the model 14,36 and the Colt Officers in 22 mag. Before anyone starts beating me up or says I ripped him off or cheated him. First he’s the one that set the terms of the trade and second the guns I picked were from the 60s or early 70s and I doubt he paid more than $100 bucks each for them. He was extremely happy with the trade cause he didn’t have to spend any money and got what he wanted and I was happy as well. I always heard it’s a good trade if both parties walk away happy and I was extremely happy!!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 8, 2023 11:03:25 GMT -7
Rob, back in the spring of 1974, I walked into a small sporting goods store in Oak Harbor, OH, southeast of Camp Perry, just looking at what he had in used guns. He had a Hawes "Western Marshall" (if my memory is correct), .44 Magnum for $150, & next to it was the Ruger .44 Mag. 3 screw Flat Top, with stag grips, alloy grip frame (with dents, from, I'm assuming, jumping out of the shooter's hands) for $200. I didn't know anything about the Hawes reliability, but we all know about Rugers, so I bought the Ruger--traded 3 Stevens rimfire single shot rifles, that I didn't have much invested in- even up + tax. I showed it to Daniel when I visited him in 2021. I had taken it to a gun show in Toledo, & was offered 2 brand new "transfer bar" models for it, or he would give me $300 for the stag grips & put wooden ones on mine. I turned him down--maybe foolishly, as those stags might have been original from 1958, when the gun was shipped. Last year at a gun show in Fremont, OH, I showed it to a dealer, & he asked what I wanted for it, too quickly, without thinking, I replied "$550". He wasted no time getting his wallet out & paying me. I doubled my money, never really enjoyed shooting it, & probably sold it too cheap, but bought a new Uberti "Cattleman" .45 Colt with a 7 1/2" barrel, that's more my style of handgun. Then later, I also bought "Cimarron" Model P, .357 Mag. also, with a 7 1/2" barrel, that is made by Uberti. Both have the firing pin in the hammer, like the Colt S.A.A.'s. I still have an original Colt .44-40 with a 5 1/2" barrel that was made in 1906. I had a Model 1892 Winchester to go with it, but sold i a few years ago.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 8, 2023 11:35:52 GMT -7
Well Gary if you are happy with what you have and what you got in the trade I could not be happier for you. I would like to find the guy at the gun show you traded with though. I would find that guy and ……. I know Dan, I know! I’m trying to keep it even cleaner than PG13 as this is a family channel and we don’t wanna be condoning violence or anything. I just hate it when I see anyone that in my opinion anyway takes or tries to take advantage of anyone period. It matters not to me if they are elderly or really young.
As I said Gary I’m happy for you and your trade as long as you are happy with it. Having said that though I sure wish you would of talked with one of us here before that trade. The reason I say that is because the flattop you traded was/is a very valuable Ruger pistol. The blue book lists one with a 71/2” barrel in 90% at $1250 and then you add another $650 for the factory stag grips. It says if a pistol has a brass grip frame it must letter as such from the factory. If it does it says excellent examples have sold or traded for as much as $5K I’m more guilty probably than most about trading for this or that especially 30 some years ago when I was a lot younger. If I was to give a young person any advice about buying or selling guns it would be two things off the top of my head. First when buying guns, buy quality guns because they only get more expensive with time and junk never gets any better or more valuable. Second if possible since you’ve taken the time to research the gun you wanted and spent your hard earned money on, keep it! If you can, we have all be at a place starting out in life where it was hard to make ends meet and had to let a gun go to pay the rent. Anyway sorry for the rambling
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Post by missionary on Dec 8, 2023 11:48:16 GMT -7
Those 44 WCF Winchester 92's are going to be how we "slow down" one day. My two favorites are a legitimate 20" Eastern Carbine in the right serial # and all the details. The other is a 1st year with the serial # barely visible from being worn down. Not much to look at but if it could only tell where it has been.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 8, 2023 12:09:34 GMT -7
I have a few of those guns that most people would consider ugly or not worth much and certainly not collectible. One is a MK1 #3 SMLE that has been sporterised and it also has a coat of Teflon on all metal parts except the brass butt plate. This was my fathers first rifle. He could never quite remember if he was 14 and paid $12 to have it shipped to his door! Or if he was 12 and paid $14 for the rifle and shipped to his door. Either way I always associate that rifle with my father and honestly there is absolutely no telling how many deer that rifle killed. It still shoots 2MOA at 100 yards and for a battle rifle made in Lithgow in 1917 I think that’s pretty good. The other one no collector would ever want in their collection is a Colt model 1903 in 32acp. This pistol belonged to my paternal grandfather. The story is coming home from the South Pacific after all the fighting was over there wasn’t much to do on the troop ship except to gamble one way or the other with your buddies. Supposedly he won the pistol and enough money to build the house my Nanny lived in till the day she died.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 8, 2023 12:29:43 GMT -7
Rob I have almost the same gun in 303. My Dad bought it when I was 9 before the gun control act of 64 and had it shipped right to the house for a grand total of $15.00 Mine is a 1917 BSA. I gave it to Ahralee our youngest daughter a couple years ago when she turned 9. Seemed fitting.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 8, 2023 12:54:46 GMT -7
My dad gave me his rifle right after he and my mother were divorced. I had just turned 10. He told me he trusted me and he knew I would be safe because he was the one that taught me my gun safety skills. Looking back now it really was a different time back then. I can only imagine what would happen today if they saw a kid like me walking on the side of a county road carrying my 303 Safari guide style with the butt on my left shoulder and gripping the barrel with my left hand. I’m sure today they would at the minimum put the kid in the cop car and take him home and try to charge the parents or call child protective services. I’m just so blessed I got to experience that, probably the last generation that did.
I’m not sure if you caught the part about the coating it has on it. Apparently in the early 60s my uncle worked at some type of plant DuPont owned and Teflon was a brand new wonder product he had access too. After hours he took my dad to where he worked and they proceeded to “Teflon” several guns. The 303, a high standard double nine, a Winchester model 94 and a stevens 311 in 410 that belonged to my uncle. My dad always said he never regretted doing it because none of those guns ever rusted at all. My younger brother has the 94 and I have no idea where the double nine is. Dad told me with the 94 they broke it down so far they spent a whole day and night trying to get it back together and ended up having to take it to a gunsmith and paid him $20 to get it together correctly. I like the way the coating has aged over the years. It’s a green/gray sorta color and it’s more of a matte finish not shiny.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 8, 2023 13:29:07 GMT -7
When I turned 18 YO no longer being content reading Field & Stream I headed out across country with a few essentials in my back pack two of which were a fishing pole with a Mitchel 300 reel and a Stevens side by side 20 gauge. That and my thumb carried me across country to the places and doing the things I had read about. Things like steelhead fishing the Wenatchi river and burbot fishing Lake Chelan as well as hunting chucker partridge in the shadow of the rocky mountains.
Once I had a taste of that I could no longer call NY home. I hitched from coast to coast with that stevens broke down in my pack and never had an issue about it. Could have been different though. One Mexican fella that picked me up in Wyoming just out side of Cheyan and carried me to Chicago asked when he picked me up if I had marijuana in my pack because he said the last guy he picked up had marijuana in there and caused big troubles.
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Post by missionary on Dec 8, 2023 17:23:40 GMT -7
Back then that weed could get-cha in a pile of issues with most local deputies. In SW Michigan we hitched all over the place. If my mom would have known she probably would have went out and got a rose bush branch to redo my thinker. Mike Farrell (who was 2 years older than me) was like a big brother to me. He always wanted a little brother and I needed a big one to warp me back on course off and on. Anyway we were in the back seat of a car and the passenger turned around and said "What if we decide to rob you both". Mike up and says "go ahead and try, cause this little feller sitting next to me is the meanest, biting fool you will ever tangle with". Well they both got laughing so hard driving was not the best. But when we got to our stop we all parted like old buddies. What they did not know was Mike carried a huge knife and was faster than a cobra with it. And I never bit anyone in a fight although the time I got both eyes walloped I probably should have.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 8, 2023 19:12:25 GMT -7
Well Rob, I thought about how quickly he got his wallet out, but it was too late, & I had set the price, double what I had paid for it, not thinking about inflation for nearly 45 years. a few years ago, my then son in law, who has 2 large gun safes full of shiny stainless pistols, a couple AR's, & I don't know what all else, bought an old Remington .22 single shot rifle. He couldn't wait to tell me how much he liked it. I told him that I had a Winchester Model 60 .22 ss that had been left to me by an old man that lived with us, & was like a grandfather, when he died in 1970. He also willed to my dad, his Lefever 12 ga. double barreled shotgun. Also, I told Ted that I had a Hopkins & Allen .32 rimfire takedown rifle that I had modified to shoot .32 centerfire ammo. Also, I had a Remington rolling block .22. I traded all 3 of those for his "like new" Thompson / Center .50 cal. Hawken muzzleloader & his "in the box" new, unfired Traditions .50 Trapper Model single shot ML pistol. I still have both of the BP guns, with the pistol still in the box, unfired. Sunday, on my way back home from deer hunting, stopped to visit my ex s.i.l., & his wife. He is now 62, unemployed from driving intoxicated, & losing his CDL. I offered to buy the Model 60 Winchester back for $100, & he agreed to sell it to me. Now, it will go back home to the local historical society museum to be displayed with Jesse Stallsmith's many family possessions that our family has donated. Jesse gave me his grandfather's 12 ga. double barreled muzzloading shotgun while I was in high school for mowing his 1 acre sheep pasture with our bush hog. It is on display, the Lefever is on loan to a very good friend that owns 11 acres of Jesse's old farm, & eventually will be put on display, & now his .22 will also join them. I have regretted trading that rifle, almost every since I did it. I feel much better now.
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Post by grasshopper on Dec 8, 2023 21:33:27 GMT -7
Great for you Gary!! Doing something like what you described in your post certainly illustrates what a fine gentleman of great character you truly are! Plus now that you have the model 60 back you do not ever have to feel guilt about trading it a long time ago. I know you must have been smiling from ear to ear all the way home!!
I understand we as men do what we have to do in order to make sure our families are taken care of and have everything they need and they are safe. Sometimes bad things happen to great people with no Ryme or reason at all. When that does happen if necessary guns are sold in order to keep things running smooth at home. I’ve been there more than once and each time I hated to part with them but I was glad most of the time they appreciated over time and in some cases were worth more than I paid when I first bought them! I hope this doesn’t sound bitter but I sure would like to have about half the guns that have passed thru my hands over the years!😁
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