|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 6, 2022 9:34:41 GMT -7
Yes its a bit early for best quality fur but still worth taking. Yesterday anxiety won out and I just couldn't wait any longer. I have never been good at putting things off until someday and have been focused on filling orders and domestic chores for such a stretch now I just had to have a taste of what coming up with my hunting vacation.
Yesterday after catching up on all current orders it didn't at all take much prodding from Diesel my coyote hunting partner to load up in the little old red Dodge Dakota Diesels favorite truck to ride in and head up to one of our favorite local spots. Infact we went to the exact same spot where we started the season last year and even sat at the same sage bush.
If any of you remember last year I used an lovely old 1892 Winchester in 25-20 acquired from a member here shootist Gary. Though we did have some action there last year we were unsuccessful in harvesting a fur. No fault to Diesel though because he in his way let me know he spoted one but I was unable to spot it until it was too late and the coyote had already achieved low flying missel status.
This years first attempt was almost an exact repeat of last years accept the final score was hunters - 1 coyotes -0. It was almost a Daysia Voo experience where everything was repeating itself. We sat at the same tall sage bush with the setting sun at our back. While I was setting up the stand putting the Springfield 22 hornet on the cross stick and laying out the ammo calls and binoculars Diesel wandered about sniffing out evidence . Once we were ready to settle in Diesel took up his regular hunting position of sitting tightly beside me slightly angling our gaze to a wide field of fire.
We both sat quietly for about half an hour without ever attempting to call. It was a beautiful warm late afternoon and immensely enjoyable to just be there but Diesel did request my left arm around him for his assurance that yes indeed he is my full fledged hunting partner. To be honest that reassuring hug may be more for my benefit than for his.
When the sun was directly behind our gaze and just about touching the ridge line we decided it was about time to call. With one of my favorite duck bill calls on a lanyard around my neck I gave maybe only about ten seconds of distress calling then stopped and we both sat totally focused.
It was probably about twenty minutes before Diesel gave me his nudge to let me know he saw something. My response to his heads up is always to look at his eyes to see where his gaze is because at this point in our process he is locked on. Once I know about where he is looking I watch the spot for movement. Sure enough it only took a few seconds and I spotted the typical movement of a fur ghost weaving through the sage as if floating. It stopped for a second for a look in our direction then when it moved again I shifted the cross sticks and drew the Springfield stock into my shoulder pointing in the direction of last sighting. Then the coyote emerged from the thick tall sage with its front half exposed and seemingly looked right down my barrel and maybe even squinted from looking right into the setting sun.
With everything ready all it took was a slight swing to get the cross hair of the old Weaver K-10 on the shoulder squeeze the set trigger then touch the firing trigger.
The 22 hornet loaded with our NEI #2 bullet at 48gn on 12.5gn of WC-680 for about 2400 fps cracked and the coyote kind if cringed swapped ends and headed back where it came from. I knew from what I saw through the scope that it was a good hard hit and expected to see exactly what I saw in the coyote making about 25 yards up the other side of the ravine and collapsing and rolling back to the bottom. I did think it a little strange that the coyote did not stay in the cover of the sage in the ravine but tried to go up the steep other side that was devoid of cover and had 75 to 80 yards of open until there was again some sage cover. That was unusual as they almost always especially when hard hit will just stay in the cover and sneak away.
Anyway its our first of the new season and not what I expected. What I expected was a new pup from this year which are typically the first to harvest because of their lack of experience. This one though was a big and heavy older female one with experience and since it was the same exact spot with the same exact set up I cant help but wonder if this one didn't already experience me and Diesel one year ago only this time came out on the loosing end.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 6, 2022 16:50:24 GMT -7
Congratulations to you and Diesel ! Fine way to start the season.
Excellent write up ! Everything minus the sounds and the feel of the air.
|
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Oct 6, 2022 19:11:08 GMT -7
Hi Daniel. Congratulations !!. What was the approximate distance for the shot? Since you mentioned the Model 92 .25-20, after you figured out what the fouling was in the barrel, is it shooting accurately? I'm glad that you got it, as you appreciate it, & use it for what it was made to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 6, 2022 21:09:03 GMT -7
Yea Gary we got that nice old Winchester shooting great shooting the bullets it was intended to shoot. I guess I left out a few details about the coyote. It was a steep down hill shot about maybe 80 yards. The coyote was standing broad side but angled slightly toward me. The shot hit high at the front edge of the on side shoulder and exited low just behind the off side shoulder. It must have wrecked the plumbing because blood was flowing from both sides. I carry a small length of paracord with me to hang the coyote for skinning or to lace the feet together to act as a carrying handle which ever is most convenient. This time I carried the coyote back to the truck that was very close just out of site over the ridge for skinning at home. While carrying for the short distance I was leaving a good blood trail so things inside must have been pretty tore up. A nice thing about the hornet is it makes a small hole in and a small hole out with no stitching required. After skinning it was getting dark so I didnt do an autopsy on the carcass to check the internal damage but judging from the profuse bleeding it must have been extensive. My guess is that it passed through the arteries at the top of the heart and severed them. Looking at the angle of entry and exit that seems to be what happened.
I still want to take one with the 25-20 but yesterday was a spontaneous unplanned event and I just grabbed the 22 hornet that is always out and handy and always has plenty of loaded ammo ready. That load I used with the 48gn NEI bullet and 12.5gn WC-680 worked great and the performance couldn't have been better even with a jacketed bullet. I have had them run much farther after being shot with much bigger cartridges so a 25 yard run after being stung by the hornet is darn good performance in my book.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 7, 2022 10:25:02 GMT -7
Growing up in SW Michigan there was a rig debate about 25-20 vs. 32-20 o ground hogs and racoons. I was of the 32-20 option as that had a heavier cast and our ground hogs got big ! But for the average G-hog and range I doubt it really matters as the well placed shot always works.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 7, 2022 11:56:10 GMT -7
When I was about 20 YO I sort of inherited a Remington pump 25-20 with some factory ammo. I had been hunting chucks with a Marlin 22 so thought the 25-20 should be a big improvement. I soon found that the Remington factory ammo loaded with an 85 grain jacketed soft point flat nose were so lightly loaded that the 25-20 was far inferior to my trusted 22 LR. I sold the 25-20 and never looked back until I started loading my own ammo which I did not back then.
After I was well into loading ammo and acquiring another 25-20 a Marlin 1894 I learned that the 25-20 could way outclass the 22 LR when properly loaded. I think the ammo companies were so lawyer shy that they stayed well away from top end loads for cartridges that might be used in vintage arms.
Now fast forward to the present to a 25-20 built on an 1898 Springfield action using a barrel with a 1/10" twist and I get 1700 fps with the 117 grain bullet intended for the 25-35. Compare that to the 22 lr giving slightly over 1300 fps with a 40 grain bullet fired from a rifle and you can see the 22 lr is not close to the same league as the 25-20. Live and learn right.
Of the three factory cartridges based on the 32-20 case the 32-20 is understandably under loaded in factory form and load data is anemic because there are still lots of the rifles in use that the cartridge was introduced in the 1873 Winchester a repeating action of questionable strength. That is understandable but why then underload the 25-20 that came out in the robustly strong Winchester model 1892 ? In comparison the 218 Bee introduced in basically the same rifle as the 25-20 the model 65 a revamped 1892 is loaded to much higher pressure than the 25-20. Loading the 25-20 to the same pressure as the 218 Bee gives safe performance far beyond all 25-20 factory ammo and all published load data for same.
In that regard the 25-20 will way outclass the 32-20 when the latter is loaded to safe pressures for the Win 1873. When though the 32-20 is used in one of the stronger actions like the model 1892, or the 1885 Winchester then due to it use of heavier bullets and loaded to the same safe pressures as the 218 Bee and 25-20 the 32-20 steps ahead of its smaller bore cousins in ballistic performance.
The only logical solution to the dilemma of which is best is to have one of each.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 7, 2022 14:00:32 GMT -7
Thank you again Dan. And Gary for asking.
We have an 1873 24" in 32-20 that is well worn. It would not tolerate what we fire out of our Savage (M23) but has its place as a "under 30 yard" thick stuff rifle. Then there is a 18" 73 carbine that is tight and gets +1 grain Unique over the 24" with the same Ideal 115 gr. FNPB.
The Savage I would use on GH out to 100 yds. Racoons & Yotes also. Those are super rifles !
I am still thanking God, my dad and his friend were 38 Special caster / reloaders. Got my first lead burn at 4 years old because I did what dad warned of.. Touch the hot pot.... But I learned reloading / casting was a natural side hobby opening a door to odd calibers. 44 Wesson and 58 Springfield being the last 2 that bless our lives.
|
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Oct 7, 2022 19:08:49 GMT -7
Daniel & Mike, The Model 92, 25-20 that I sold Daniel was the 2nd one that I owned. The first one was a takedown model with an octagon barrel. It was loose at the joint, so, I didn't shoot it much. One day my local gun dealer friend called me & asked if I would be interested on a nice solid frame Model 92 .25-20. I got in the car, went to his shop, looked at the rifle, & wrote a check for the rifle & 2 boxes of Winchester ammo. Tax & all came to around $90. This was in 1968. I used it for groundhogs & crows on our 180 acre farm in eastern Ohio, near Youngstown. Later, one evening, I was in the gun shop, John was busy writing hunting licenses, so I went back to his repair rack, where I spotted a .30 U.S. Carbine in nice condition with a repair tag on it. W hen John was caught up, I asked about the carbine. He had sold it to a young lad, whose mother had to sign for it. When she found out that it wasn't a .22, she wasn't too happy, but let her son have it. Later, he brought it back, because after firing it, the empty brass would get caught by the returning bolt. I told John to give him his money back, as I wanted the gun. Later that week I bought it with 3 15 shot clips, 1 30 shot clip, some empty brass & a few loaded rounds. It is a U.S. Postal Meter rifle with a Marlin barrel. This replaced the .25-20 for G.H. hunting on the farm. The longest shot from a rest, 197 paces, G.H. was resting on his pile of dirt, looking straight at me, dead center between the eyes with my reloads using Speer jsn bullets just a bit faster than military specs. I still own that carbine today, & 4 years ago, I took it to Camp Perry, CMP, (25 miles east of where I live), & had one of the men there check it out. He checked the chamber & muzzle with gauges, then told me it is as new. He offered me $1,350 cash on the spot for it, a leather grip bayonet, original sling & oiler. I politely said no. I now have 20 14 round loaded clips, 2 30 round ones, & the little clip that attaches them together. There is probably at least 7 or 8 hundred loaded rounds, & much brass & 2 or 3 boxes of the Speer bullets. My brother that lives in PA asked me if I still had it, & wanted to buy it from me, but not at the above offered price. He said " I know what you paid for it". I told him that I would put a note in my gun records book for my wife to let him have first dibs on it when I'm gone. Hopefully It'll be a few years, as I'm only nearly 80. I forgot to tell you, the reason that the rifle didn't cleanly eject the empty brass, was that it had too much olive drab paint on the bolt. I removed the bolt, polished it to a smooth finish, cleaned the gas piston & port, lightly oiled & reassembled everything (all of this without the proper tools or even a manual to go by), & the only times that I had a problem, was while reloading, I didn't hold the case tight against the shell holder, & sprung the brass. They won't chamber correctly when that happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 7, 2022 20:10:01 GMT -7
I have never had a 30 carbine in any form of rifle but did have one in a Ruger black hawk. The BH shot great but man oh man was it loud with book loads for the carbine. I think the 30 carb and the 32-20 are about equal when loaded to like pressures in the black hawk. At one time 30 carb brass was cheap and much easier to find than 32-20 then came Starline brass and solved the availability problem but the days of cheap 30 carb surplus brass ended long ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 8, 2022 7:16:08 GMT -7
Carbines are fie little all purpose carbines. Bought our 1st back about 1991.
Actually traded a Stanley folding ruler for it. Cleaned out an old garage for $30 and "find". Well alot of junk but a Stanley folder. Took that one and soap and water revealed an Ivory Stanley Special. Discovered it was worth $200!
So next Gun show took it along. There sat an ex-police carbine. Price was $218 out the door. Old tool dealer I talked to was there and showed him the Stanley. He got "big eyed" fast. Said he had only seen 3 in his life. Asked how much and I said $218. He asked why the $18 as $200 was near top $$. Price of a carbine over in the corner I stated. Well the $218 was dropped down and to our house went the Inland..
Taught our kids rifle shooting with that.. Lee 115 gr. GC has fed ours all these years.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 8, 2022 8:27:00 GMT -7
I remember as a kid growing up in NYS that the 30 carb surplus rifles were considered entry level deer rifles. They were really cheap at the time so folks testing the deer hunter waters often bought them. They didnt seem to be at all respected by the real deer hunters at least that is the impression I got at the time. When my older brother from NYC brought a couple friends deer hunting one year thay were by all means city folk that is what they brought. My brother was a country boy turned city homed in Hicksville Long Island after meeting a friends sister from there when they returned from the Korean so called police action. My brother was 20 years older than me and I was my Dads last. This might amuse you Mike that in Korea my brother was a tanker.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 8, 2022 9:34:58 GMT -7
Tank life sure beat living in wet holes and eating cold C-Rats.
As a deer rifle if it was all I had and a FN cast with under 30 yard shot..... yea. But for me I will grab a 54 or larger RB Flinter always.
|
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Oct 8, 2022 10:04:24 GMT -7
Mike, sorry that you are way down south, as I went to an auction a couple weeks ago, & bought a pile of cast round balls. 10 bags of 50 .54 cal. (.530 dia.), 2 bags of 100 .50 cal. (.490 dia.), 1 box of 50 T/C, & 1 box of 50 Hornady each caliber, all for $16.50. The bags of .530 each still had the $8.00 prices marked on them. I have 4 T/C Hawken .50's, but no .54's.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 8, 2022 12:28:53 GMT -7
I'm going to try to tempt you Gary. We just got in our shop a custom flintlock 54 caliber.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 8, 2022 12:35:02 GMT -7
Good buy !! You should be able to trade off the 54s for 50s.
I shot a 50 Hawken for some years until I got our 1st 58. What a huge difference in shoulder busting. A good friend wanted to buy the 50 so off it went. 20 years back bought or 1st 54 and last year got a double 54.
I think 36 is our little one and up. Largest is an old 86 that was a "wall gun". I probably shoot 60-65 regular when up there.
|
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Oct 8, 2022 23:45:23 GMT -7
Sorry Daniel. I have never wanted a flintlock. Now that I'm older, I probably couldn't hold it still long enough for the ball to exit the barrel with the slower ignition time.
|
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Oct 9, 2022 0:01:05 GMT -7
Mike, I still also have my first muzzle loading rifle that I bought back in the mid 1960's. It is a Numrich Arms Hopkins & Allen "Minuteman" .45 cal. octagon 38" octagon barrel percussion "long rifle". It has a fast twist, for shooting patched round ball. Back then when shooting it, it was very accurate at 50 yds, using 65 gr. of DuPont BP. I even loaded 2 balls over 65 gr., just to see how that would pattern. One would hit point of aim, while the second one would cut a half dia. hole at 1 o'clock on the first hole. I had a lot of fun with it, but finally, it was just occupying space. I haven't shot it for about 20 years or so.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 9, 2022 6:56:40 GMT -7
H&A made some good guns back then. I really liked their under hammer buggy rifle
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 9, 2022 10:43:03 GMT -7
Never had an under hammer. Just seemed like asking for an issue staking about the woods and bottoms.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Oct 9, 2022 12:02:55 GMT -7
Back at the time when bench rest rifles were ignited by percussion caps there was a following for under hammer ignition believing that more uniform ignition was achieved because the spark took a straight path from the nipple to the powder column not having to turn a corner as with traditional side locks. That was for target work though not for hunting. The side lock mule ear was an exception.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Oct 10, 2022 0:43:29 GMT -7
Mule ear ignition did look better to me. Simple action and as you wrote, good direct spark. Never came across one of those.
Has always facinated me how a 1859 / 1863 Sharps can have a spark at all. That spark channel has a case of the bends.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 4, 2023 21:20:58 GMT -7
I know this is a pretty old thread but I was bored and decided to read thru some of the older posts. The 30 carbine doesn’t get the respect it deserves in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong if we were going in combat tomorrow and could pick between the carbine and the Garand I would pick the Garand every time. It’s not that the 30 carbine isn’t a good man killer, it is and has proven itself in at least 3 wars I can think of. I think I read once that the 30 carbine is much like the 357 mag in velocity and power. We all know what the 30-06 can do and I would feel more secure packing one of those.
All the posts about the 30 carbine took me back to my childhood and made me reflect on days that were much more simple. I grew up in northwest Alabama and the largest industry there was and is farming. Our family raised soy beans, corn, cotton and occasionally wheat. We also raised cattle. I remember very clearly my dad and my uncle putting down a cow or killing one for slaughter. They would most often grab a 30 carbine from the truck and shoot it once in the head. I never saw them have to shoot one a second time. Since they are both passed on I’ll share one more little story concerning the 30 carbine. I remember my dad telling me that in the late 60s and into the mid 70s hardware stores would have them in a barrel and you could get one for less than $50 bucks. My uncle Tommy was quite the character and had been a paratrooper in the Korean War. They bought I don’t know how many and I remember them cleaning them all once and afterwards they started shooting them. I don’t think it was planned but one of the carbines my uncle started to shoot must of had a M2 fire group in it cause it was pure rock and roll!! All he said was that’s why you gotta check them! Sometimes you get one that tries to run away from you!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 4, 2023 22:45:54 GMT -7
Wow ! That would be interesting, and fun.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Dec 5, 2023 4:03:43 GMT -7
An old Korean Sarge telling how the M2 Carbine "had a mind of it's own". Tap the trigger and it fired 3 shots. Squeeze the trigger and it may dump the whole magazine. But no matter how many went down range, the little beast would walk the burst up and off to the side real fast.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 5, 2023 4:07:29 GMT -7
It was pretty exciting growing up around those men. They always seemed to be into something and pulling pranks and hunting more than I remember them working. That might be a tad unfair, I remember being pretty young say 7 or 8 and going to work with my dad and getting on a tractor as the sun was coming up and not getting off of it except for fuel and a lunch break. They always had a cowboy type scabbard on the tractor and I don’t know how many deer they shot while plowing. I wanted to go with him mainly because I had a set of twin first cousins and we were all the same age. When it came time to tag and cut the spring calves they would make, not ask but make us get on the back of a calf while it had its head in the chute and when they released it you better hang on for your life! They would laugh till tears were coming out! That’s about as far as I went in my rodeo career.
It’s pretty much all gone now but back then they were deathly serious about quail hunting. My dad told me the first time he ever borrowed money from the bank it was to buy a champion bird dog! They also believed that the Browning auto 5 was the only shotgun worth having. One of my best special memories is going to my Nanny’s house on Xmas morning and her cooking the breakfast meal with huge “cat head” biscuits and frying quail that they had shot. They are all gone now and I sure miss them this time of year. I suppose since I’ve got that memory in my head now I need to look in the back of the safe and get my dads auto 5 out and give it a good wipe down. Come to think about it since I never shoot it anymore I think it would be a neat Xmas present for my son this year. I know he will enjoy it and take care of it like I have all these years now.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 5, 2023 4:13:59 GMT -7
You are correct about the M2 Mike! It’s a neat little package but if you put a 30 round magazine in it and hold the trigger back it will try to run away from you in a hurry!! Good times, looking back it was some of the best days of my life. Way back then all I had to worry about was having fun, no stress about anything but making sure I had enough worms to go and catch shellcrackers till I got tired of it!!
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Dec 5, 2023 4:19:32 GMT -7
Back to yotes... 1st one I shot at our Indiana home back in December 89 was a two shot deal.
Yote was about 250 yards out when our oldest son Steve eating breakfast said "Hey dad there is a strange looking dog crossing the field". I looked and there was a healthy yote slow sniffing a trail. Grabbed the Rem. 788 in .243 Win that was sitting in the corner by the door. Walked out to the front yard, sat down and put a 60 grain into the shoulders. Down it went. Steve was watching (still eating) when I got back in and asked if I was going to leave it there for crow bait. No I said as I told the farmer owner of the field I would not leave dead carcasses out in view.
Put the .243 back in it's corner and grabbed the 30 Carbine that sat in the other corner. Putting on a heavier jacket and boots I headed out across the field. Upon arrival the Yote was attempting to push himself with his hind legs. He looked at me as I squeezed of one round of 115 RNGC (Lee) into his head which quickly ended the easy part. Next was cross sling the carbine over the back, attach a rope to the hind legs and drag the yote over to the woods a good 300 paces away.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 5, 2023 4:42:46 GMT -7
Those carbines are sure handy no doubt! I don’t have one at the moment but one day I will just hope it’s not anytime soon. My wife’s uncle is getting up there in age, I think he’s 86 now but I’ve helped he and his wife around their house and I cut their grass for free in the spring and summer. He doesn’t have any children and no close relatives except me and my wife. He was an electrician and a part time gunsmith till he retired a number of years ago. I’m not over estimating but he probably has between 100-150 long guns and I’m not sure how many pistols. A couple of years ago he told me that since he had no one to leave them too he was going to leave them to me and my wife. I was shocked to say the least but he was extremely thankful that we help them out when they need help. One of them is a almost unissued national postal meter M1 carbine. It still has the first type folding rear sight and it doesn’t have a bayonet lug. I almost hate to shoot it it’s so nice and clean. One other one I think is really special is a Chinese type 56 SKS with the Bakelite stock. It was brought back from Vietnam as a war trophy it comes with the capture papers! Pretty cool if you ask me!!
|
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Dec 5, 2023 12:09:37 GMT -7
my grandpap came back from Europe in WW2 and one of his rifles was the M-1 Carbine. he "found" it on Omaha Beach when his DD tank sunk. he was picked up by the guys that were in 1st wave. cold, wet and without a firearm, he was among the 16th Regiment of the 1st US Infantry Division when he came upon Omaha Beach. it didn't take long to "find" his carbine and ammo. that's all i know of his account of Omaha, because he always got quite after that. my grandma told me after Saving Pte. Ryan came to VHS, she rented it and showed it to my Pappy that nite. he sat in his chair till a man bent over and picked up his own arm and ran towards the Germans. Pappy then stood up and he said something along those lines, "i already did it, i ain't going to watch it again".
he passed away and my dad got all the rifles and shotguns. Dad passed and now the guns are mine. Dad and i figure that the 30 Carbine will be good for deer at under 60-70 yards.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 5, 2023 12:38:43 GMT -7
Wow! Great story Todd! He was a member of the big red one! Great outfit and they saw a lot of action during WWII. I honestly can’t imagine being on Omaha beach on D Day!! He was extremely lucky to survive at all but I’m quite sure know that already!!! They just don’t make them like that anymore do they bud? Since we are talking about carbines this morning I’ll mention another one of mine. It’s a bicentennial ruger 44 mag carbine. I think it looks about like a Ruger 10/22 has been working out!! The rifle I’m talking about has never even given me the smallest hiccup! It digests any 44 mag or 44 special I load into it. I certainly wouldn’t wanna be on the wrong end of it!!
|
|
