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Post by Bullshop on May 22, 2022 13:09:06 GMT -7
Hey Yall its been quiet here so I felt the need to stir the soup a little. I am going to ramble a little about an article in this months American Rifleman about shooting long range with the 308 win using a new bullet designed to enhance its long range performance the Berger Juggernaut. First off I will say that some of it I agree with and some not. As I mentioned in another thread about Dr Manns book the author of this article is in agreement that the 308 Win has been regarded as an 800 yard cartridge and beyond that range it falls apart.
I had previously questioned what exactly that phrase means (falls apart.) After reading Dr. Manns book I understood what it means and the author of this article somewhat agrees that beyond the 800 yard mark the 308 is becoming sub sonic and the transonic disturbance can cause bullets to completely tumble which is certainly showing the load (falling apart). I agree with what he is saying to a point but do not agree on the cause.
The point of divergence of our opinions is where he obviously promoting this new wonder bullet stated that at 1000 yards fired from a 308 win the bullets are printing perfectly round holes on paper. That statement soured me on the article because it is a physical impossibility unless the target is set at a 90 degree angle to the bullets angle of entry. The only other place the bullet can possibly make a round hole in paper is at the bullets mid flight trajectory point where spinning on its center axis and following a point on path to its trajectory path it becomes level to the earth and then begins its downward arch. At that one point in its trajectory fired from a barrel that is elevated for the 1000 yard shot mentioned in the article at that point and only that point can that bullet possibly make a round hole in a target that is standing 90 degrees to the earths surface. I do have more to say on this but Tina is reminding me I am late to be elsewhere. That should get the ball rolling though until I can get back. Be nice now !
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Post by missionary on May 23, 2022 5:34:00 GMT -7
Howdy Dan I was wondering if you was still under a snow drift out there... :>) I do agree about the "1000 yd round hole". I grew up launching arrows out to 50+ yards. Do to slow FPS fro a 45# bow it was not hard to see the rainbow trajectory. And never was there a none slating arrow stuck in the ground or target. At tank range saw the same rainbows with tracers out at extended range. One no wind lazy day I went to our 500 yard range with a 45-70 and a 8 foot tall target board to measure actual bullet drop using the same high placed aiming dot and moving the board out at 50 yard increases. At first I thought the cast was key holing at 300 yards and further. But finally noticed the more slanted vertical pattern as the bullet drop increased. Was at least 45 degrees off horizontal at 500 yards. So yea unless they slanted the target.... no way "perfect round holes". Maybe that phrase was edited out for space.
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Post by Bullshop on May 23, 2022 6:58:12 GMT -7
Its interesting reading the Sandyhook trials where they did the ballistic testing for the development of the 45-70. A few things that stood out to me are that at two miles distance the bullets were hitting the sand at a near straight nose down position. That means that the bullets are staying point on to the trajectory arch. I have often pondered why that is so since for a two mile shot the position of the bullet in the barrel is very nearly reversed from its landing position. Either way nose up or nose down the bullet is presenting a lot of surface area to its forward motion effectively dropping its BC numbers drastically. With that much frontal area exposed and going from supersonic to subsonic is where the 308 falls apart. The reason the 45-70 doesn't do the same thing I think is because starting out much slower the 45-70 goes subsonic before it reaches such a steep downward angle so it has already gone through the transonic turbulence before it gets there and the wobbles have already dampened out so it continues on a point forward course in its trajectory instead of tumbling helter sckelter in who knows what direction as the 308 can do. Another thing I found interesting in the Sandyhook trials was that even with a very tall target at about 8' tall the bullet had such a steep angle of entry that they could hit just a few feet in front of or behind the target but still miss the target. Kind of like standing between the rain drops and staying dry. Did you read the article ? It is pretty good and maybe does point out that the bullet in question does extend the range of the 308 a bit beyond other more conventional bullets but I feel like the difference is a moot point because for me if I want to shoot farther than what I know my 308 will shoot well I will just step up to a bigger cartridge maybe or maybe not in the same caliber. Reason is that maybe the new bullet added 200 yards to the 308 before it falls apart but you can bet that those are not its best 200 yards. For that 1000 yard shot I would consider the new bullet in question but I would likely launch it from my 30" barreled 30-06 Ackley. That rifle gives me 300 mag velocity with 30-06 powder charges and shoot ever so tiny groups and I would reserve the 308 for 600 yard max shooting. Anyway being such an old fart know it all I guess its kind of hard for the younger fellows writing for the magazines today to pass muster on our inspections. OK so here is something for you to ponder. Yesterday I was out with my 6.5-06 Ackley shooting three different VLD type match bullets all Hornady all ELD in 100, 120, and 130 grain. Velocities are respectively 3500, 3200, and 2900 fps. Shooting at 300 yards at my 6"x6" steel target all impact together on target with the same elevation and windage corrections. So the question is , whats the difference ?
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Post by Bullshop on May 23, 2022 8:50:01 GMT -7
OH yea BTW it snowed yesterday, actually it has snowed for the past three days. No complaints though as when you live in a desert you take your moistier any way it comes.
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Post by Bullshop on May 24, 2022 9:10:47 GMT -7
Its snowing again. We dont have leaves yet but the green grass sure looks nice. I also want to answer my own question from my second post about the three 6.5mm bullets. The answer is RANGE! The 300 yard shooting I was doing is not long enough range for the ballistic superiority of the heavier higher BC bullets to have shown the ballistic difference. As the ranges get longer the difference in drop and wind drift will become obvious. At some point the one with the lowest muzzle velocity will eventually have the highest retained velocity. Oh and I must make a correction on the velocity of the 130gn bullet. It is the only one I did not chronograph but instead took a wag at the muzzle velocity. According to the drop tables in my ballistic app the velocity has to be closer to 3000 fps that my guessed 2900 fps. So the velocities are 100gn bullet @ 3500, 120gn bullet @ 3200, and 130gn bullet @ 3000 fps. That 6" square target I shoot at represents the kill zone on a coyote. The goal is to make first shot hits on it to as far as I will shoot at coyotes without trying to get closer. I dont want them any closer than 300 yards either because it is too damaging to the fur. The other days shooting with a very stiff variable wind at about 10"30 I was piling shots just off the left edge of the target with 1 minute of windage. I forgot my wind meter so was guessing velocity. Going to a zero windage correction had me hitting just barely off the opposite right side edge. Going to a .75 minute correction put all three different bullet weights on center of target. That just goes to show how hard it is to stay on that 6" target under field conditions even at the 300 yard range. Challenging for sure especially when your target can in an instant move like a cruise missel.
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Post by missionary on May 24, 2022 13:32:19 GMT -7
To answer your question.... I sat here thinking and was reminded about 25 years ago at our 500 yard range playing with 150 -200 grain caliber .30 SPBT bullets out of our wonderfully accurate Mauser MK X .. The 200 grainers were impacting higher on the target. I at first wrote it off to recoil raising the barrel but a BPRC shooter mentioned not to overlook mass. The heavier bullets are close to matching the trajectory of the lightest at those 300 yards due to their heavier mass not loosing velocity as rapidly.
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Post by Bullshop on May 24, 2022 17:10:25 GMT -7
That is exactly right kind of like the tortoise and the hare. The slower bullet starting out ends up the faster bullet at the end of a long run because the higher BC retains velocity better. I never really understood lag time or how to compute it to calculate drop and drift. I do know it is based on the percentage of velocity loss from initial MV. Since the lighter lower BC bullets shed velocity faster or have a greater percentage of velocity loss at the longer ranges they drop and drift more. In the ballistic program I use one of the options for showing trajectory is a line graph. With the line graph and the trajectories of all three bullets overlaid it is easy to see exactly where the heavier bullets overtake the lighter. Kind of like a picture is worth a thousand words or numbers in this case. Say Mike were you affected by that earth quake we are hearing about ?
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Post by missionary on May 25, 2022 16:23:38 GMT -7
Hi Dan If you mean the 5.8 That was 4 days ago... no it was about 250 miles south and near 90 miles deep. We only had a slight swaying but no noise
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Post by missionary on May 26, 2022 5:24:16 GMT -7
Hey Dan There was at 7:02 am local at Tirapata a 7.2. that is about 200 miles north and 120 miles deep. That one rumbled and decent swaying here for about 2 minutes. The major 2 lane road from here past Juliaca on the way to Cuzco probably is no more. Tourists who bussed up there will get a couple more days to see the reformed area.
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