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Post by grasshopper on Feb 9, 2022 2:04:37 GMT -7
Reading all the stories about the folks here finding little pieces of history made me want to share a little also. As I’ve mentioned several times in the past I currently live only a short stones throw from the Chickamagua National Battlefield. I’m not sure how the boundry lines were formed but one of the main roads thru the center of the part is only 150-200 yards from our house. When I built my shop out back and each spring when I till a place for the garden I always find several mine balls and have also found several pieces of iron cannon ball and have a large oak tree out back with a rifled cannon shell in it slowly being reclaimed by the tree. I often wonder what the young men wearing either the blue or the gray thought about while those projectiles were flying about, I’m sure they were some of the same things I thought about during combat some 175 years later.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 9, 2022 8:35:43 GMT -7
To so easily find those artifacts makes me believe the intensity of fire in that battle must have been fierce. Its a wonder anyone survived . Imagine at the peak of the battle how many pounds of ordinance was in the air at the same time. I have read of people finding projectiles fuzzed together from mid air impact.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 9, 2022 15:38:44 GMT -7
Oh wow! That sounds very interesting! I love it when I actually learn something new! I had never heard of projectiles fusing together in midair and perhaps even more embarrassing I had never even thought it possible for such a thing to occur! I believe your assessment of how intense the volume of fire was is right on the money! They have a modest size museum to go along with the park and what it may lack in size it sure makes up with top notch quality! You saying that about the intensity of the fire made me recall a letter from a union officer in the museum that gives a great description of the volume that must of been flying around here those few days of September 1863. He states in his letter that the wilderness looked like a scythe had come along and cut every sapling from 3 feet off the ground and above and just simply made them disappear! Hearing a first account description like that I don’t really see how anyone made it, especially when we were using cutting edge weaponry for the time and still using 15th and 16th century tactics!! I did think of another question while writing this, what do you think the hardness was for the lead musket or minne balls they were using then was and do you think it was a pretty pure lead projectile or did they have to add other metals to help stabilize them?
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 9, 2022 17:26:03 GMT -7
On the alloy hardness I just recently read in Ned Roberts book about ML target shooters in the two decades before our uncivil war. He said that a hardened ball proved to be more accurate than a pure lead ball but their hard idea of hard lead was much different than ours today. He said the hardened alloy was one ounce of block tin to four pounds of lead. That would be an alloy of 64 to one of lead to tin. I dont no how of if they used alloyed lead during the uncivil conflict or if they used something different for ball and for bullet. I am pretty sure that but the time we went to cartridge guns the arsenal bullets for the 45-70 were a 16 to 1 lead to tin alloy so much harder than the 1840's ball alloy but still not even close to what we consider hard alloy today. On the mid air projectile impact I recently saw a picture of I believe WW1 jacketed bullets that were fused together at a 90* angle one piercing the other. Because of the angle of impact it was believed that one came from a sniper that was working the flanks of an ongoing battle.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 10, 2022 3:41:53 GMT -7
The way you described the hardness back in the day was fantastic! For me anyhow, short, sweet, simple and too the point with emphasis on simple most of all! I’ve always heard from the time I was a kid that the “softer” projectiles made of almost pure lead back then caused horrific wounds because of projectile or bullet expansion. I’ve never really questioned this but when you talked about their idea of hardness is very different from ours today it made me wonder. Do you believe it to be true that the softer projectiles caused more horrific wounds than other projectiles or bullets as we have progressed thru all the conflicts of the late 18th and into the 20th and 21st centuries? I just didn’t know if other factors such as projectile/bullet design, shape, chemical makeup, velocity etc would make up the difference. I suppose I’ve probably answered my own question, as the more modern platforms for launching said projectiles can’t be compared to the ones from almost two centuries ago. I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts, if there are any😁
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Post by missionary on Feb 10, 2022 6:11:43 GMT -7
From the little I have read of the "factories" that produced the ammo for the basic musket load, economy was the largest fact involved. Also the war department was faced with the reality of paying the bills. It had already been known that the Ball load was to be made cast with a 40-1. The thin skirt required the 1 part tin (expensive) to readily fill out. Some factories found they could even cut that some. Also due to the thin skirt it was found that 60 grains 2F BP was near the max load or the skirt would be badly blown open on leaving the muzzle. This has been proven with test and modern photography. Belled out skirts affected range and accuracy thus 60 grains. Factories also fudged that often with lightened powder charges. The model 1861 could easily withstand higher powder loads. The cast slug could not. And there was no reason to make a thicker skirt as tests showed it could do the needed job out to the range of the standard sights.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2022 8:30:20 GMT -7
I dont know Rob as I have never found anything from that conflict to inspect for damage. I would think though that the condition of your recovered slugs should tell you something. The bullets I have found in the area of fort Union and fort Buford on the MT and ND border show very little mushroom type expansion. Mostly they are bent and dinged but usually not expanded caliber wise. I would think that yes perhaps soft projectiles played some part in wounding capacity especially if bone was hit but even if expansion did not occur just from the caliber size the wounds would have been terrible.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2022 10:13:15 GMT -7
I also forgot to mention that yesterday I was shooting the 577 Snider with a traditional type of hollow base bullet that was cast in a slightly hardened alloy. It shot pretty fair when cast in pure lead but since I started out shooting 110gn charges of FFG powder and remember what I read in one of my older Lyman books about charges of over 70gn blowing the skirt on mini type bullets I thought I would try an alloy slightly harder than lead. No specific alloy and just a guess from experience I would put the BHN at about 7 to 7.5 pure lead being about 5 I cant say for sure because I didnt shoot enough but it appears as though the slightly hardened bullets may have shot a little better especially after some fouling had built up. Not sure though but it was interesting enough that later in the day I cast more of the alloyed bullets. I initially only cast a small number because I didnt want to waste too much effort on something that might just end up going back into the pot. Yesterday I had to test a pot that the switch went bad in so I had to re-wire and since I had to test the pot and since the ingots that I had emptied from it were the same alloy as with the first small batch of bullets I used the opportunity to cast a fair quantity of the alloyed bullets to see if I might come to a more firm conclusion on the issue. BTW the pot worked good after bypassing the bad switch. I contacted RCBS about the switch and they told me that they no longer have parts for the Pro melt pots. They have a new model the Pro Melt 2 which uses a digital switch and is different enough that parts are not interchangeable. I guess I am now on my own for repairs on the four pro melt pots I run regularly.
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Post by missionary on Feb 10, 2022 10:45:07 GMT -7
Surely some electric componet supplier can help there.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 10, 2022 12:25:36 GMT -7
try cut lead balls, its interesting.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2022 13:01:15 GMT -7
In a word "accuracy" I believe he is shooting a smooth bore muzzle loader. Cut lead in a rifled cartridge gun might be quite a challenge.
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Post by missionary on Feb 10, 2022 15:23:51 GMT -7
Probably on par with shooting pea gravel.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2022 17:42:46 GMT -7
Not quite that bad but not much better.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 11, 2022 5:18:32 GMT -7
Pastor Mike, Dan thank you both very much for the wonderful information and some of the history of the bullets or projectiles a soldier might use back during the War of Northern Aggression. Pastor Mike’s comments about the economy of war read especially true. We always used to joke and kid each other saying “you know the contract for the rifle you carry went to the lowest bidder” I will also try and look around and see if I can find any of the expended minnie balls or other lead rifle slugs I’ve found around here thru the years. If I remember correctly I’m pretty sure I did try to mic one that wasn’t horribly mangled and it was .584 maybe? I’m pretty positive about the 58 part for sure because I was excited thinking it came from an Enfield the South had managed to smuggle over. Now I’m not so sure because most of what I read says if it’s 58 it could of been either side. Anyway, thanks to all for the great info! Super!
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2022 8:30:59 GMT -7
Yes I believe that is right that the Springfield of the north and the Enfield of the south as well as the Remington Zouave were all 58 caliber. The Mississippi rifle I believe was patterned after the Remington but was a 54 caliber. Something I have learned since starting the 577 Snider project is that the early Enfield 3 band rifles used a 1/72" rifling twist rate. Later versions of 2 band and artillery carbines went to 1/48" twist. I ran the Greenhill formula to determine maximum projectile length for the 1/72" twist and it came out at .63" not very long at all. The traditional mini type hollow base bullet is both spin and form stabilized so can be stabilized by the quite slow twist but I think only marginally and may tumble easily on impact. That could be a reason why it earned a reputation for creating horrendous wounds much like those early low bidder black rifles with the same condition of marginal bullet stability. Northern aggression ! I had to laugh, but cant deny.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 11, 2022 8:48:17 GMT -7
In a word "accuracy" I believe he is shooting a smooth bore muzzle loader. Cut lead in a rifled cartridge gun might be quite a challenge. that would be fun!!! the closest place is Gettysburg, PA, which i did. i also went to Fredericksburg and the wilderness and Spotsvania & Chancellorsville , VA. i've seen the house that Stonewall Jackson died in and where he was shot. the battle of the bloody angle (Spotsvania) was a 20-24 hour, hand to hand combat. i can't remember who, but a union general said something like the rebs are 400-500 yards away, they won't shoot at that range. seconds later, he was dead due to a confederate sniper.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2022 9:40:18 GMT -7
It doesn't take too much study time to learn that they had incredible long range accuracy potential during that conflict. I just recently finished Ned Roberts book about ML rifles and in it he pretty much covers all aspects of the history and use. He details the long range potential they had available that most folks have no idea about including apparently that union general!
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Post by missionary on Feb 11, 2022 9:49:34 GMT -7
We lived in Chattanooga 8 years and enjoyed the time there. Construction was routinely finding expended projectiles. Bomb crew got called out regular with artillery shells being dug up. In our garage "cinder floor" we found a canister cast iron ball about one inch round. Did work on an old house that was used as a hospital during the 1863 battles. Blood stains on the original dinning room wood floors in the cracks.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 11, 2022 13:32:50 GMT -7
Maj. Gen'l. John Sedgwick was killed on May 9, 1864 at the Battle of Spotsylvania Cross Roads, in VA. He was shot under the left eye by a Confederate Sharpshooter, using a .451 cal. Whitworth Rifle, at between 500 & 1,00 yards distance. The distinctive sound of the hexagonal shape "bolt" bullet was heard prior to Gen'l. Sedgwick's mortal wounding. Blood gushed from the wound, & he died immediately, still having the smile on his face from his conversing with an aide.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2022 14:36:50 GMT -7
Interesting! They could hear the sound of the subsonic bullet before the bullet arrived.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 11, 2022 19:40:06 GMT -7
Maj. Gen'l. John Sedgwick was killed on May 9, 1864 at the Battle of Spotsylvania Cross Roads, in VA. He was shot under the left eye by a Confederate Sharpshooter, using a .451 cal. Whitworth Rifle, at between 500 & 1,00 yards distance. The distinctive sound of the hexagonal shape "bolt" bullet was heard prior to Gen'l. Sedgwick's mortal wounding. Blood gushed from the wound, & he died immediately, still having the smile on his face from his conversing with an aide. that's the guy. 20 some years have gone by, i'm surprised i remember that.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 11, 2022 21:26:36 GMT -7
I think that the distinctive sound was from the design of the bullet, with it having corners & flats, instead of being round.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 12, 2022 7:49:36 GMT -7
Well! I can see right away the thing to talk about is as I say among my friends of course is The War of Northern Aggression! That last post I made is one of the first I’ve seen in a little bit that had all the regular folks that post on a regular basis all chiming in! I think it all just wonderful. Gary’s information on the Union general and where and with what he got shot with was very interesting. I was surprised the “sniper” chose a .451 bullet, just figured most of them in that day used a larger caliber. Todd, don’t feel bad at all my friend about having a hard time remembering stuff(I feel your pain!) I have that disease as well, CRS, can’t remember stuff? Yeah I think that’s what it stands for!😁 Pastor Mike I certainly hope you and your lovely bride will look us up the next time you are in the Chattanooga. You have an open invitation to either just visit or if you need overnight accommodations as well we can fix that no problem at all!!
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 12, 2022 8:25:53 GMT -7
I think the Whitworth system had already established itself in target shooting as being on the cutting edge of long range precision accuracy so it was a practical choice for the same purpose in war. The target rifle accuracy crowd had pretty much settled on calibers from 38 to 50 with I believe 45 being most prevalent. My 451 Gibbs rifle is 45 caliber with 1/18" rifling twist and when properly fed will shoot as good as any cartridge rifle shooting BP and lead . The Gibbs and Rigby rifles are nearly identical as pictured in Ned Roberts book. The Rigby rifle was the predominant rifle used by the Irish team in the first international match at Creedmoor. As mentioned these type ML rifles shoot awfully good "" WHEN PROPERLY LOADED "" The when properly loaded part may be more difficult on the battle field and I think to some extent the Whitworth system made it easier under such conditions.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 12, 2022 9:29:31 GMT -7
Hi Rob. I'll have to admit that I already knew about General Sedgwick's being shot by a sniper, (possibly a Sgt. from GA), using a Whitworth Rifle, being that I have always been a "Civil War" (Yankee Speak), history buff. I did Google it to make sure I had it right tho. I also "invaded" Kennesaw Mountain, Orangeburg, NC, Opequon Creek, VA, & helped capture General John Hunt Morgan when he invaded Ohio. At one time, I owned 6 different carbines, 3 muskets & 2 C & B revolvers, all at the same time. I have either sold them, or donated some to museums. I have no more to donate ! Ha Ha. I have thought about buying a reproduction Whitworth, but at my age, 79, it's too late to get my money's worth, at the going price for the rifle & mold. If you Google the shooting of "Uncle John Sedgwick", as his men respectfully called him, there is quite a bit of info. about how many Whitworths were issued to different sections of the army, & how the men that received them were picked. A lot of informative info.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 13, 2022 1:41:34 GMT -7
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Post by missionary on Feb 13, 2022 5:45:54 GMT -7
Never underestimate your enemy.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 13, 2022 6:51:31 GMT -7
Good morning, first I just wanted you to know Gary that I never doubted your info for one second. I know from talking with you that you are very passionate about that time period and also knew for certain that information was correct. I was just surprised because all of the military issue rifles I’m familiar with on this side of the pond during that time were of some type of 50ML and I was just surprised the Whiteorth was in 45! No doubt it got the job done! Todd, what a fantastic story! To me that’s what being an American is all about. You do the absolute best you can, you raise and take care of your family, mind your own business, love the Lord and the rest will sort itself out. In this case I don’t believe Mr Hinson even had a choice in what he did. He was merely acting on autopilot for a man of his age and background during that time. People forget far too often families lived and often times died by the feud. Thanks so much for posting that story! I’m a wimp cause I can’t imagine carrying a rifle with a barrel weighing 17 pounds on it own!! Wow!!
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