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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2022 11:35:29 GMT -7
When I was a wee lad growing up back in NYS I was by indoctrination a rabbit hunter. A winter staple for my family was rabbits. My Dad brought home many rabbits from work in the winter. He worked on the Erie RR as a gandy dancer for 43 years. His crew kept an old single shot stevens 22 rifle in the crew truck and when they rode the track to clean switches they would shoot rabbits along the tracks and the crew would divide these among themselves , about 5 guys . One of my winter chores when Dad got home from work was to clean rabbits.
So likely due to such exposer as a boy I developed a fondness for hunting rabbits in winter . Apparently my children too because just a couple days ago one of my daughters asked if we could go rabbit hunting. I guess they got it from me to enjoy not just hunting them but also eating them. For the folks that have never had fried cotton tail you are missing out on something.
Anyway that being said and add the fact that I am a bonified gun nut its easy to understand that I would have an interest in a purpose specific rabbit rifle. Way back in my youth back in NYS I learned of the superiority of the 22 mag over the 22 LR. Where I hunted there were large brier patches some as big as an acre of ground. These brier patches were rabbit hotels. They were impenetrable accept for the small tunnels made by the rabbits. At times I would see a rabbit sitting far back in a tunnel but with a 22 lr I could not hit him because with the trajectory arch of the 22 lr . Trying for a head shot which was pretty much a pre requisite from Dad the bullet would always hit the briars at the top of the little tunnel.
About that time I discovered the 22 mag and wow what a difference. On those same type of shots I could aim at the rabbits head with no allowance for bullet drop and make a clean head shot each time with no interference from briar brush. OK now lets fast forward about 35 years to where I had an opportunity to trade some of my bullets for a brand new Cooper rifle (3 digit CN) chambered in their proprietary 22 CCM cartridge. For those not familiar with the 22 ccm it is pretty much a reloadable 22 mag. After several thousand rounds of learning experience with the 22 ccm I remain very fond of the cartridge as a dedicated rabbit rifle slightly superior ballistically to it rim fire counterpart. The one negative about the cartridge is brass. Production of factory rifles and brass from their original source was short lived. I have tried but so far unsuccessfully to make the brass and outside sources are either nonexistent or insanely expensive.
Now with that in mind and going back some years again to a visit to an east coast gun shop where my curiosity was piqued by the discover of a loading and forming die set for the 22 squirrel. I have very limited knowledge of the cartridge but had some ides that it might be a ballistic match to the 22 ccm and a possible candidate for rechambering the Cooper rifle to a case that I could make brass for.
Long before ever even considering a new rifle for the 22 squirrel I successfully attempted to form some brass. With the form die set it was really easy. OK so lets fast forward again about another 25 years to where I now have a custom MGM TC encore barrel in 22 Squirrel. I have now had this barrel since late summer and worked up some good loads for it and have found that my assumption about ballistic equality between it and the 22 CCM was pretty near spot on. Both cartridges have very nearly identical volume so stands to reason that both should give about the same ballistics.
Ballistic equals yes but not with equal loads as I thought and kin of hoped they might be. The difference in case shape changes chamber pressures with the same loads even though both have the same volume. The bottle necked 22 squirrel with sharp 40* shoulder produces higher pressures that the straight wall 22 ccm case. Its interesting that both cartridges have about the same top end velocities with the same bullets just not with the same loads or for that matter even with the same powder burn rate, close but not the same.
I dont have the data ready yet but hope to give a good comparison of these my three favorite rabbit cartridges the 22 mag, 22ccm, and the 22 squirrel sometime in the near future. I should mention that both our rifles in 22 ccm and squirrel have a 1/14" rifling twist but I suspect most 22 mag rifles with have a 1/16" twist.
One other issue I am having difficulty in getting is the origin of the 22 squirrel cartridge. I have suspicion but am unable to confirm that the first incarnation of the 22 squirrel was actually intended as a revolver cartridge for custom conversions on S&W K-22 revolvers the model 17 being the most common. It started out in the early 50's as the Harver K-chuck. These conversions were popular enough that they inspired S&W to come out with a factory version in the 22 Jet. Anyway I cant pin it down accept that I did find a reference to the case length for the Harvey K-chuck at .935" which is exactly the same length of the chamber in my MGM barrel in 22 squirrel. That make me pretty sure but not absolutely positive that the two cartridges the Harvey K-chuck and the 22 Squirrel are the same the only difference being that one was for revolver and one reincarnated many years later as a rifle cartridge.
Anyway this is a first installment on relating this long term project in the search for that perfect rabbit rifle envisioned by a boy hunting rabbits so many years ago back in the big briar patches common to farms in NY state back in the 60's. I never could have imagined then where I would be now not only in physical location but also in my firearms education.
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Post by missionary on Jan 29, 2022 14:49:16 GMT -7
Well I had to research all these wildcats as I knew nothing of them. The 22 Squirrel does look interesting as brass is reformed 22 Hornet. Good use for any Hornets that get neck split.
I will be reading these....
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2022 15:01:25 GMT -7
Yes that is exactly right new life for old hornets. Its the same situation with the 221 FB with the 223 case and thought not so popular anymore the 222. I guess there are even others that if I find at the rock pit can be made into 22 FB like the 204 Ruger. I have never tried one (yet) but with the 22 TCM I could get triple or quadruple life from 223 brass first as 223 then 222 then 221 then 22 TCM. With the 22 squirrel only double life. In your search were you able to come up with anything on the 22 Harvy K-chuck also sometimes written as Harvy Kay-chuck. Not that it matters if they are different I would just like to know. But then again I wouldn't be disappointed to learn there is S&W K frame 22 Harvy K-chuck in my future.
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Post by missionary on Jan 29, 2022 16:10:49 GMT -7
Hi Dan
I did see the Harvey K-Chuck mentioned some so did a search and there is all sorts of information half of it being on the smith-wesson.com place.
Seems there are 2 versions. The "regular" and the "improved".
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2022 16:42:35 GMT -7
Yea thats about all I found too. I was hoping for some case dimensions for both cartridges. Wikipedia my usual source didn't seem to have anything. I have found that the squirrel case is easy to form to outside dimensions but inside is a little tricky. As you move down the case toward the head the case walls get progressively thicker. What I found with the squirrel case is that as initially formed there is an internal ring in the case neck right at the juncture of case neck and shoulder. If not removed by inside neck reaming a loaded cartridge will not chamber because when the bullet is seated it pushes the bulge to the outside of the case neck where it interferes with free chambering.
Once the internal doughnut is removed all is good. I can imagine that if trying to make 22 TCM from 223 cases that are much thicker than 22 hornet that once you work the case length down that short that the necks will need inside reamed as well as outside turned. I have had no problems making 221 FB from 223. Sometimes they need outside neck turned and sometimes not it just depends on what brass you use. I am also a big fan of the 22 FB even though I only load it to hornet velocities. The heavier brass at the lower pressures makes it seem to last forever. As soon as you notice a cracked neck junk that one and re-anneal the rest and your off and running again.
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Post by missionary on Jan 30, 2022 3:53:14 GMT -7
Annealing... So far we have had one batch of brass that defied annealing. Some old 33 Winchester a widow gave us years ago. Then when we got out first 86 in 33 Win ( a TD) we loaded 5 with a fat enough 200 grain with 10 grains Unique. Fired the first one and neck split. #2 same So stopped and pulled those 3 apart and annealed the with 7 more.
So neck sized them and 10 grains Unique with same fat 200 grainer. Fired 1 and body split #2 the same. #3 the same. Gave up on that.
Still have that brass still have that brass somewhere sitting in the old box.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 30, 2022 7:53:17 GMT -7
By your description I would guess that the brass you had trouble with was originally fired with mercuric priming and not properly cleaned right away. If left uncleaned the mercuric priming residue will cause the brass to become brittle and annealing it will not change that. That is why I avoid any milsurp brass that is dated before 1950 about the time they quit mercuric priming. There have been many rifle barrels ruined by those primers too. I have read that when the 30-40 was our military cartridge troops were trained to clean their rifles with hot soapy water. Some thought it to be a holdover from cleaning after BP use but it was specifically for removing mercuric priming even though the procedure was the same.
If your problem brass was vintage it would have been originally loaded with mercuric primers. Add who knows how many years of sitting uncleaned before you got them and what you end up with is brass as brittle as pretzels.
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Post by missionary on Jan 30, 2022 10:50:58 GMT -7
That is probably the whole issue right there. So that 33 Win brass sit some where hidden in a box I will most likely not see for some more years. I plum forgot about those primers.
Last ones I had an issue with was some 1953 30-06. Came with our H&R M1 Garand. Finally decided one day I was not keeping it any longer and fired off the two clips. Got home and cleaned the rifle. Happily next morning I got it out and there was that old Alabama red looking at me.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 30, 2022 11:34:08 GMT -7
OK so getting back on topic I dug through my records today and found these,
22 wmr rifle 20"
Fed-30gn@---2200
RP 40gn @ ---1910
Fed 50gn @ ---1650
CCI maxi mag 30gn ---2200
22 CCM 48gn NEI Cooper rifle 22"
7.1gn W296 @ 2051 Av.
7gn AA#9 @ 2172 av.
6.7gn H-108 @ 2091
7.3gn H-110 @ 2059
22 Squirrel Encore 18"
NOE 63gn 6.7gn Ramshot Enforcer @ 2020 av.
Lyman #225415 @55gn 6.7gn Ramshot enforcer @ 2099 av.
I have lots of chrono data on the 22 ccm but not much yet on the 22 squirrel. I have one load listed as favorite for the 22 ccm using the same NOE 63gn as recorded in the 22 squirrel but unfortunately no chrono data for that load of 6.5 gn of Power Pro 300 MP. Might have to re visit that one on a sunny day.
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Post by missionary on Jan 31, 2022 9:15:32 GMT -7
That 22 Squirrel does look like a good one to think about. But it will have to take a back seat for now for a 1865 Trapdoor project.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 31, 2022 9:44:48 GMT -7
So the 1865 TD project will be a 58 caliber ? Was the cartridge ever officially given a name? It was interesting that when I was looking for a Snider conversion I found two oddities. One was a Springfield converted with the Snider system and even more strange is that I found an Enfield converted with a trapdoor system inline like the Allen conversion but not an Allen conversion. This looked much like an Allen conversion but on closer inspection was completely different. On this conversion the was no mechanical locking latch as in the Allen conversion. It has a handle in the same location but it is solid non moving and acts only as a handle. The way it locks closed is that just above where the hammer contacts the firing pin there is a V wedge on the breach block and on the under side of the hammer a corresponding V recess. Once the hammer falls it and the breach block are in a way locked together so that the breach block can not pop up to open the breach. To open the breach the hammer must be brought to half cock to clear the breach block in its arch of opening. I found it very interesting and can only assume it was a prototype. As for the Springfield converted with Snider conversion my best guess is it was a captured weapon that went along with a lot of Enfield's for conversion, who knows? I would have liked very much to have obtained all three rifles but was limited to one which is a decent example of the Enfield Snider conversion. Still waiting on the loading dies for that which should be here this week. I am going to attempt to form 577 Snider brass from Mag Tech 24 gauge brass shot shell cases. The Mag tech brass uses standard large rifle primers not the 209 type normally used in shot shell ammo.
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Post by missionary on Jan 31, 2022 14:36:00 GMT -7
Yep a .58. Used the original model 1861 barrels with a chunk of the breech sawed out.
My research so far shows 28 gauge being the closer diameter. Te original .58 Allen brass was .710 rim, .630 at the head and .619 mouth with a .590 bullet.
What diameter are 24 gauge ? Would you have a Mag Tech to measure ?
I do know RCC Brass in Texas makes .58 Allen but you have to buy 50 and they are near $7 each !
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 31, 2022 15:27:13 GMT -7
24 gauge magtech
length --- 2.430"
diameter at mouth OD--- .638"
diam mouth ID --- .622"
diam at head OD --- .654"
rim diam --- .717"
rim thick --- .055"
These were measured with a caliper so may be off a wee bit either way but should be awfully close. Magtech also makes 28 gauge which I believe we have in our shop.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 1, 2022 2:31:58 GMT -7
Wow! Fantastic amount of information that makes for some extremely interesting and informative reading these cold winter days. I must admit before these articles I was completely ignorant of 22 CCM and 22 squirrel but I’ve always been a fan of the 22 WRM ever since I bought a little 9422 Trapper in that caliber over 25 years ago up in Alaska. One important question I do have for the bullet master though, once you find the perfect cartridge for a rabbit rifle, will that cartridge also be perfect for a Wabbitt rifle?😁 Thanks my friend!
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 1, 2022 10:02:22 GMT -7
Hey Rob I've been missing you here. The answer to your question is an emphatic no. The two variants of the species require completely different ballistic performance thus a different rifle is required for each. I had initially overlooked this necessity but will correct my shortfall in bringing this to the war departments minister of finance for immediate correction. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Fortunately this business can be conducted on line so I will not have to go to a gun store and ask for a wabbit specific rifle similar to the one used by Elmer Fudd and convince them that no I do not possess a medical marihuana card.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 1, 2022 12:31:21 GMT -7
That is probably the whole issue right there. So that 33 Win brass sit some where hidden in a box I will most likely not see for some more years. I plum forgot about those primers. Last ones I had an issue with was some 1953 30-06. Came with our H&R M1 Garand. Finally decided one day I was not keeping it any longer and fired off the two clips. Got home and cleaned the rifle. Happily next morning I got it out and there was that old Alabama red looking at me. I am not sure about the timing but think about 1950 when all commercial and military ammo quit using mercuric priming. Remington coined the phrase "" clean bore priming"" on their ammo boxes to identify the change. |
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 2, 2022 10:50:10 GMT -7
Hello all, first I want to weely(I mean really) apologize if I happened to hijack the thread about the 22 rifle cartridges. I’m confident the folks that are on here most often will recognize it was another one of my weird attempts at humor. I did however hope that we could make good use of the Fudd wabbitt rifle. His rifle does seem to have some very unique and desired features. The first and most obvious special feature it has is the ability for continuous fire without need of reloading, woops! On second thought, for a site that discusses, researches, experiments with, shares and just all around enjoys all things handloading/reloading a firearm that never needs reloading doesn’t sound like that much fun(or profitable for some professionals) so I believe it’s best if we just stay on topic and keep doing what we are best at. Thank you again, hopefully there won’t be too many disappointed wabbitt rifle fans out there. 😁
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 2, 2022 12:10:02 GMT -7
Now you went and dun it. Elmer Fudd will now be targeted by the cancel culture. Even BATF might take a closer look at him. He really is harmless though as with all the shots he has fired he never hurt anything. Now Yosemite Sam that is one bad hombre.
Maybe if we all chip in and get Elmer Fudd a 22 squirrel he might start taking home some hassenpfeffer.
Anyway hey Rob it dont matter if we stay on topic or not because were all old guys here and mostly cant remember what the topic is so long as it keeps us amused and gets us through the day its all golden. I was going to start a new topic but what I just wrote took too long and I dont remember what it was. So in those famous words from Ahnode, I'll be back""
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 2, 2022 12:20:55 GMT -7
What do you mean that we are all old guys on here? I'm only 79, so maybe 90 is old.
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Post by grasshopper on Feb 2, 2022 14:06:38 GMT -7
Old? Did I say old? Well, I suppose that I did, I won’t try to be like ole Biggs trying to imitate our first President George Washington all dressed up wig and all with his trusty hatchet saying “I can not lie”( boy! wouldn’t it be nice if ALL we had to worry about was a cherry tree!) Hopefully Elmer won’t be getting into trouble anytime soon with the ATF. I seriously doubt it because as you pointed out he never seems to connect with his intended target. The one thing he may have to worry about since he lives not too far from you is all those folks from California complaining about all the noise and them trying to tell him all about how they did it in Cali!! Hope all of you are all warm, healthy and happy!!!!
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Post by missionary on Feb 2, 2022 15:00:39 GMT -7
Thank you Dan for that 24 gauge info. It looks like 28 gauge will be our route. Those 24's are on the fat side for the 1865 chamber. I have read a couple of writings from shooters who recommend the 28 Gauge.
Not far off but would have to buy some expensive dies to do some squeezing.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 2, 2022 21:17:24 GMT -7
I got my 577 dies today and fired my first shots from the new rifle. All went pretty good but I do have some learning to do. I found the case holds 110gn FFG when dropped and very slightly compressed. That load shot good but is a wee but over the recommended charge of 70gn. The 110gn charge shot good but kicked like a mule. Will have to work on that.
Already getting a jump on its little brother and ordered those dies today. With the availability situation today if you see something you want in stock get it. As soon as I ordered the dies their status changed to out of stock'
I told Tina to get several more boxes of the 24 gauge mag-tech brass if she could find it. She found some at Ballistic Products and I think bought all they had. She later told me that Midway showed in stock on all the Mag-tech brass shot shell cases so you better get there and get some pronto before its gone. From what we are seeing from our distributers when they show items in stock that status can change in minutes.
Its kind of like when inflation was gaining so fast in Venezuela people with jobs as soon as they got paid would buy any commodity because the value of money was dropping so fast but the price of commodities went up equally as fast.
When ever I get money in my hot little hands my philosophy has always been to spend it on something before I spend it on nothing.
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Post by missionary on Feb 3, 2022 8:00:08 GMT -7
I hear ya Dan ! Gonna send our son the $$to order 2 Boxes of Magtec 28 Gauge Brass today.
Buy all the pre 1965 U.S. Silver coins (not collector) you can wangle.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 5, 2022 16:42:07 GMT -7
when i was 13yo, my mom and dad gave me a marlin m25 in 22lr at Christmas. my best friend has gotten one on Christmas day too. we shot the s@!# out of them. squirrels, rabbits, grouse, pheasant, doves and groundhogs galore. we shot soda and beer cans/bottles, huggie juice plastic bottles, rocks, paper, 22 cases...you name it, we've probably shot it. i don't know how many i shot in those years, but i expect it to be in tens of thousands.
i'm just one of the guys that never even thought of buying a 22 mag. back then, depending what brand of ammo, .69 - .79 cents for 50 pcs of lr to a $1.40 - 1.50 for pcs of 22 mag makes me wonder, what for? $8 or 9, you have 500 pcs of lr. i don't they had the 22 mag ammo back then. i know of guys that had 22 mag for squirrel season, but other than that......
i wanted a 17hmr, but at today's prices, i'll pass. besides i still an krag action and it wants a 22 hornet.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 5, 2022 18:19:52 GMT -7
The 22 hornet will do it cheap and easy. Some of the small wildcats are a pain to make brass for but so many of us are drawn to their siren song. As a gun nut I am drawn as much by the desire to learn likely more so than any ballistic performance. Sometimes we might just sort of fall into possession of a wildcat firearm and sometimes we bring the challenge on ourselves but either way love it or hate it there is something to be gained even if that turns out to be, "" wow I'll never do that again""
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Post by missionary on Feb 6, 2022 3:50:12 GMT -7
And the simple challange of taking what most view as a wall hanger but in reality is a fine hunting tool waiting to be brought to use again.
I read many posts that say "If this old firearm cold only talk". Well they will if you take the time to feed them and let the speak again.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2022 10:19:17 GMT -7
That is so true Mike. They can talk of the past as well as the present. Going back quite some years ago on a 4th of July day when by boys were small I took them for a drive in the mountains in MT. I wanted to get back far enough that we wouldnt have company. We found a small mountain creek and moved enough rocks to make a dam to make a puddle big enough for the boys to play in. That water was ice cold but the boys were not deterred and they stripped down to undies and played in it all day.
While Mom was getting a fire ready to cook on I took a walk upstream on the creek and what I found was very interesting. It was two sets of narrow gauge rails that went from some fallen down log buildings running about half a mile up the mountain.
Everything was still there on the tracks but all the wood was rotted away but all the steel hardware axles, spikes wheels, and everything that once was used to transport logs down the mountain There were trails on each side of the tracks for the mules that powered the log cars up and down the mountain. Everything was there as if one day everyone just left.
Anyway some time later I went back there with a metal detector and starting hunting. I found a number of very interesting artifacts some of respectable value. Two artifacts likely of value only to me were found on opposite sides of a large mineral lick that by the looks of it had been pawed at for centuries by elk. ON my arrival at that spot I jumped a small herd of elk that had been bedded there and thought what a great place to be on opening day of season. I circled the opening in the timber with the metal detector and on one side found a well weathered 44-40 empty case that inside had the telltale green of black powder. On the opposite side I found a 200gn 44 caliber hollow base bullet typical of what was loaded in the 44-40 original loads. At that moment I had a flash of history. I stood looking across at the spot where someone stood many years ago and fired that shot at an elk in a place that had attracted them for centuries. In my epiphany I envisioned an elk being shot through and the bullet having little energy left stopping at the first resistance it encountered then lying there for over a century until I found it. That discovery certainly spoke to me just the same way using the old ones speaks to us now. Its almost mystical how the character of the old ones stands out as if trying to communicate and that is something that the new generation of firearms offerings at least for me just can not do.
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Post by todddoyka on Feb 6, 2022 14:16:42 GMT -7
about twenty years ago when i was hunting deer on private ground, i found a row of rocks piled up into a knee high wall that goes on and on in the trees. then i noticed the dirt road that goes along with it. so i followed it out to a rock foundation and what appears to be a old grove apple and plum trees. my guess is that a frontiersman and woman settled there in the 1700's. there was no wood left on foundation of rocks, but it was there. i imagine a family living there, farming the land. my mind then goes to killer Indians and, disease, way to brain, way to go  . next time i stopped at a place that was about mile down the road on the same private ground. i was just looking at lay of land and i decided to go to the spot that three mountains converge and that's the place where the private grounds end and it goes into PA state game lands. well i go up the valley(about 2 miles) to see where the mountains end. if your looking at it you can see a Y. i was at the bottom of the Y. then i go to left side of Y about 1/2 mile to look around. i go back to the Y and i go right about 1/2 mile. i seen a rock foundation in the old oaks like before. i imagine again about the frontiersmen and i think about the life that he/she leads. automictically, my mind does the killer Indians and disease. way to go, AGAIN!!!!  whoever they were, they lived a hard life. |
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 6, 2022 15:55:18 GMT -7
I knew the site I found was from a time that there were still hostiles because what walls still stood of the log structures had gun ports. One of the artifacts I found next to a pile of broken whisky bottles and just downhill from what must have been a bunkhouse was a 24 carat gold cufflink with a stamped date of 1884. I figured it was put there from a drunken fight after a trip to town on a week end.
Another very interesting artifact I found was a copper pendent that read, "" Anaconda the capital of Montana"" We know that Anaconda was never the capitol of Montana but it was the base of operations for Marcus Daily known as the copper king. He had campaigned to have the capitol moved from Virginia city to Anaconda but lost his bid and it was moved to Helena where it is today. It was supposed to be moved to Grants dale but in the interim the entire town of Grants Dale burned down.
From what I found I assume this was a site for logging mine timber for the copper mines. The log cars that still sit on the tracks were 16' long so were likely cut in half for mine timbers. Somewhere back a couple years ago I posted some pictures of one of those copper mines we found where the big boilers and steam winch are still in place for raising and lowering a platform into the main mine shaft. I later found that it was called the Monument mine and just like the timber tracks I found it appears that one day everyone just up and left. I dont know what was the cause of quitting these sites but it may have been the death of Marcus Daily or possibly even ww1 and the flew epidemic or a combination of those things.
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Post by missionary on Feb 7, 2022 6:06:53 GMT -7
History is fun to be a part of. So much to investigated. Much to be learned and hopefully avoid the errors to walk in His Light.
Only items we have from here from the past is a horseshoe of a small size which probably was fro a donkey found on our lot here while I was digging a trench for a wall footing. About a foot down so it had been around awhile. Area was "invaded" in 1540 so by 1700 there were farms where our house sits.
Have also found a long knife possible sword end that was hiding out in the desert. Then there was a FN-FAL mag that was lost on an old Army practice range. Somewhat pitted but very functional as there is little rain in that area.
Then there are lava bombs. I have collected mostly the small types. Have seen one that is 10 feet in diameter. But they come in all configurations from near round to real flat from being molten on impact. Then those that are yet hot and have another land on top of them. Working with hot lead sort of gives us some insight what is going on as molten rock gets blasted into the air. Twirling and spinning getting centrifical forces applied with possible air collisions and final impact.
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. next time i stopped at a place that was about mile down the road on the same private ground. i was just looking at lay of land and i decided to go to the spot that three mountains converge and that's the place where the private grounds end and it goes into PA state game lands. well i go up the valley(about 2 miles) to see where the mountains end. if your looking at it you can see a Y. i was at the bottom of the Y. then i go to left side of Y about 1/2 mile to look around. i go back to the Y and i go right about 1/2 mile. i seen a rock foundation in the old oaks like before. i imagine again about the frontiersmen and i think about the life that he/she leads. automictically, my mind does the killer Indians and disease. way to go, AGAIN!!!! 
whoever they were, they lived a hard life.