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Post by Bullshop on Jan 11, 2022 15:17:56 GMT -7
Being severely infected with cabin fever and suffering its symptom of boredom I have decided to enroll in a new gun school semester. I wanted to work on one of my areas of deficiency so have enlisted in a course that will be dealing with the 577 Snider. The curriculum will include familiarization of the rifle originally chambered for the 577 Snider cartridge as well as all aspects of loading ammunition for said rifles. It will be a pretty exclusive class with a student body of one. The instructor is a fairly likeable chap that I know well and have heard called ruggedly handsome and must agree.
The bulk of the tools I was required to obtain for the course is an original pattern 1853 Enfield conversion to the Snider trap door breech loading system chambering the 577 Snider cartridge. That and a few other miscellaneous hand tools like loading dies and cartridge brass are also required and have been secured.
For anyone not familiar with the Snider cartridge and the converted rifles it is basically the British and commonwealth version of our own US Springfield trapdoor conversion . The two major arms of the US uncivil war were for the north the 1863 Springfield and for the south the 1853 Enfield both muzzle loading arms. After that conflict and with the world transitioning to breech loading arms for warfare and with great numbers of these ML arms as surplus both the US and the Britts cleverly adapted the surplus ML arms to breech loading both using a trapdoor system but both uniquely different.
As most here will know the US version opens straight in line with the rifles barrel but the Britt Snider system opens at a 90* angle from the barrel. Another big difference is that the Britt conversion kept the original caliber 58 where the first US version sleeved their barrels to 50 caliber from 58. Both arms as ML were 58 caliber but only the Britt conversion stayed at 58. Thats right a metalic cartridge at a honking 58 caliber.
As for allowable chamber pressures what is safe and sane in a Springfield conversion should be likewise safe and sane in the Britt conversion. I am quite sure that the class will cover all the nuances of loading both black and smokeless powders in this very interesting cartridge. I am very excited about attending this class and am anxious for it to begin which should be about exactly when those ordered tools arrive.
Lord willing I will share my learning experience here with my compadres as things progress. I think I am already feeling better and my severe case of cabin fever is breaking.
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Post by missionary on Jan 11, 2022 16:55:11 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
I look forward to being tutored in this fine old caliber.
If I remember right the first some thousand Trapdoor rifles were caliber .58. But the Army determined real fast it was not going to be what they wanted as the trajectory was not much better than the Minnie ball. So in 66 they started making the caliber .50 rifles.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 11, 2022 18:49:49 GMT -7
At one time I had a very nice Euro Arms copy of the 1853 three band Enfield. I learned with that rifle that just like all rifles when properly fed can shoot well, better even than history gives credit for. I suspect that the cartridge version of the same rifle will respond likewise. The rifle I have comming is also a three band infantry rifle.
One obstacle I am facing but am sure I will overcome is in trimming brass. There are no trimmers that I know of that can accommodate a 58 caliber. I will likely have to make some sort of file trim die.
I dont expect this rifle to have any range advantage over the ML version but it should be faster loading. After a while the new will ware off but by then I should have satisfied some curiosity and learned something. Then maybe a new class with its necked down spawn.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 12, 2022 21:29:27 GMT -7
Many years ago (back in the late 1960's) while I was single & spending extra money on old guns, then selling or trading, to experience another variety or make, I seriously considered buying a .577 Snider, but for some reason, didn't. Maybe it was because it wasn't part of our American firearm history.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 13, 2022 8:10:04 GMT -7
In a way the 1853 Enfield is a part of our American firearms history since it was the issued rifle for southern troops during our American uncivil war. For me it is very interesting to compare the ingenuity in the conversion system in the two main arms used in that conflict. Our American conversion is well known nationally but the Snider conversion not so even though the Snider was more prevalent in different forms around the world. I recently saw a Springfield rifle converted using the Snider system. I dont know if that was common or how it came about but that history should too be interesting. Maybe captured rifles I dont know but I would like to. One of the Snider conversions found around the world is the Zulu conversion most of which that I have seen are 12 gauge smooth bore. My neighbor in Alaska found one of those in a very old trappers cash near an area along the Tanana river where there were several ice holes used by early natives to store fish and meat.
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Post by missionary on Jan 13, 2022 9:34:46 GMT -7
Well Dan you got my interest smoldering in finding a 1865 Trapdoor.. This is the one model infantry rifle we have never had.
Seems like I read some where a 1866 breach block fits right in. We have one so it would be "easy" to "temporarily" swap out a breach block then get what ever brass would be needed to make up some ammo.
So I will begin the quest to find a shooter 1865 Trapdoor. Would be a fun project. One or another of the Trapdoor Parts fellers should be able to supply a 1866 breach block for a permanent addition to the 1865.
We did a CW Peabody Carbine in 56-56 Spencer that was a rimfire. Simply removed one bolt and it was a center fire. Fun Carbine.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 13, 2022 12:42:59 GMT -7
Was the 1866 the one that was 58 caliber? I have a TD with the lock dated 1869 chambered in 50-70 Gov. I had never heard about the first Allen conversions being left at 58 caliber
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Post by grasshopper on Jan 13, 2022 14:16:37 GMT -7
I sure wish we were all closer at times like this! My uncle is the present caretaker of an Enfield in 58cal that according to oral history anyway belonged to my great, great, great grandfather. His name was Edmund Waldrep and was a corporal in the 27th Alabama Infantry. Supposedly the rifle came home with him after that conflict was over. I’ve always known about the rifle and it’s history but to my knowledge anyway it’s never been fired in my lifetime anyway. It’s been many years since I’ve laid eyes on it but from what I remember it was actually in really good shape for what a rifle like that had to go through. It would be really interesting today to see what kind of shape the bore is actually in since you can get a bore scope camera at the local auto parts store for not a whole bunch of money nowadays. I’m motivated enough now that I’ll try and get my uncle to take some pictures of the rifle and if he does and they turn out ok I’ll do my best to post them for those with an interest to look at and comment on. Who knew school could be fun!?
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Post by missionary on Jan 13, 2022 14:47:44 GMT -7
The model 1865 (1st Allin Conversion) is the .58. The model 1866 is the 2nd Model and in 50-70.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 13, 2022 15:16:01 GMT -7
i always wanted a 50-70 gov trapdoor, but i got the 500 linebaugh in a tc encore(23" MGM barrel).
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 13, 2022 16:51:36 GMT -7
Todd, I have an 1871 "New York Militia" Remington Rolling Block .50-70 in nice condition with a vg bore. When I contacted Daniel about casting some bullets for me, he asked about bore size. So, being that I couldn't correctly gauge it, & used a ML .50 Buffalo Bullet by using a dowel rod to push it thru the barrel. Then, I made an index mark on it, so that each time it went in the same position. Between each trip thru the barrel, I placed the bullet between 2 hardwood pieces of wood, then hit it with a hammer to "fatten" it a bit. After 3 times, it was fully engraved by the rifling. I then mailed it to Daniel for him to measure. The barrel is still original specification size. Daniel cast the bullets one thousandth over bore diameter. It shoots well, but has a horrendous trigger pull. After calling Ken Womack in Fallon, NV, he told me that I wasn't the first one to complain about this. He told me that my rifle was made between 1871 & 1873 or '74.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 13, 2022 21:45:34 GMT -7
The NY contract rifles are an interesting variant of the rolling block with some features I believe to be exclusive to that model. I had one for a short time and liked it. My current TD 50/70 is a cut down rifle but pretty true to the carbine configuration. I like old milsurp BP rifles because they have a cleaning rod that is always there if needed and a means to attach a sling. Sporting rifles of the same time frame had neither accept maybe the Gemmer rifles.
I have a couple other rollers one is from the Egyptian contract butt apparently because of its good condition one the was diverted to France when Egypt reneged on payment. It is chambered in 43 Egyptian and has about a mint bore and shoots great with bullets from an old Ideal mold for the 44-77 Sharps a 400gn RN sized to .448". Like your NY rifle Gary my 43 has a horendously heavy trigger pull but if you can master it the rifle does shoot good.
The other rifle is an oddity in that it is a dated 1902 smokeless receiver but the receiver is an octagon top not round top like all the military smokeless actions. It also has the bent lower tang for pistol grip type wrist. The trigger is to die for that breaks clean as an icicle at maybe 2 pounds. When I got it it was chambered in 219 Donaldson Wasp which I didnt at all want but when I checked out the slicked up action I wanted that. It is now re-barreled with a long heavy round barrel chambered for the 38-55. This one is the most refined RB action I have ever seen.
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Post by missionary on Jan 14, 2022 5:54:26 GMT -7
Hi Dan
Your "1902 action" reads like someone milled the receiver to octagon. That was done on numerous 1902 and #1's to "make them look like" the expensive
# 1/12 receivers.. a bit more sporting and a little lighter.
Trigger pull... The easy way to lighten the pull some is to loosen the trigger spring screw and insert a shim. This raises the harder engagement level and a reduced trigger pull of a couple of #'s.
Better is reduce the width of the trigger spring and shim the hammer engagement notch. A piece of watch spring works well there. Expoxcy in place.
Used to be able to buy hammer springs for a couple bucks at gun shows... but those bins full of springs are all gone now.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 14, 2022 20:23:31 GMT -7
Daniel & Mike, Ken Womack ( Mr. Rolling Block) told me that he has wire trigger springs that replace the original flat leaf spring, to very much reduce the trigger pull. I think he said send $17 to cover the cost of the spring & shipping. I might just do that. As you stated, if I can hold the very fine military sight on the target at 100 yds, I can hit the bullseye, bu not often.
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Post by missionary on Jan 15, 2022 0:48:29 GMT -7
Well I will have to look into this good piece of information. Thank you Gary
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 10, 2022 11:36:22 GMT -7
Just want to touch base on this again . Progress has been made with the rifle and loads but not enough time spent on it yet to have a good feel of the rifle/cartridge. One delay was in getting it to shoot to the sight and not 2 feet over top of the target. During one of our cold weather snaps I spent an evening whittling away at a small block of steel that would slip over the existing sight but stay with the same V post as the original. That turned out quite well looking pretty much as the original just being taller. It is pinned on so to go back to original just push out the pin and the add on sight comes right off. It is a very close fit on the original so looks good too. Its bottom has a mirror image of its top but in reverse or to put another way the original looks exactly as if it were punched out of the bottom of the top piece.
That done the rifle now shoots normal loads to point of aim at 100 yards. That sure makes load testing more simple and more precise rather than having to guess where my other guesses were to hit the target and try for a group.
With the slow 1/77" twist a conventional flat base bullet has to be awfully short to stabilize not exceeding about 3/4" which in 58 caliber is not much longer than a ball. I have also tried a ball of .602" and those shoot well and an added bonus is that to load them cases do not have to be sized. I started out with the pretty much standard for 58 caliber the Lyman # 575213 a picket style hollow base. I am looking into other designs in hollow base for this project even considering custom.
So far only black powder has been used but that might change with gained knowledge and experience. Since this is about the same vintage as an Allen conversion on a Springfield and I have safely used smokeless powder in those the Snider should be no different accept that it has a much greater expansion ratio over a 50 caliber so powder selection may lean to the faster side of what worked in the 50-70 Springfield.
That is about where I am with this but hope to gain much more experience when if ever our weather begins to act more springy than arctic.
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Post by missionary on Mar 10, 2022 17:37:46 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
Thank you for writing it all out in good form. Pretty near whatever works in your direction will also work for us with the .58 Springfield.
The one advantage I see is that your case will hold about 10 grains more BP than the 58 Springfield case. That will not affect us as so far I am looking at using RB only.
If we need more FPS to get the sights close we can go to 2F.
God bless your thoughts and application of wisdom as you dig deeper into this project.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 10, 2022 18:22:05 GMT -7
Mike do you know what your rifling twist rate will be ? In my research on the Snider I found that for some reason the three band infantry rifle used a 1/77" twist while the two band and artillery carbine used a 1/48" twist. The 1/48" will handle a much wider variety of bullet designs and weights over the 1/77" of my rifle. My slow twist shoots shuttle cock bullets well but those are much harder to cast perfectly than a simple plain base.
I am shooting bullets from an RCBS mold that they have marked as the north south skirmish bullet. It drops at about .578" and 530gn in pure lead. I have another very similar from Shiloh that drops at .585" and 600gn but I have not yet tried that one yet because I have an idea its just too much of a good thing for the 1/77" twist. I may be surprised though to find that with the slow twist and the form stability of the HB bullet design it just might do better that expected. You know I will have to scratch that itch.
I am looking for one of the old Lyman molds for a 58 HB round nose and did find one a couple days ago but someone had modified the base plug to make a flat base bullet and I am certain that without the added form stability of the deep hollow base it will not stabilize. Another option that I am looking for is a mold for a 20 gauge foster type HB slug. The diameter is about right at about .603" and the shape is correct too for a HB RN. The issue with the 20 gauge slug is it is smooth sided so lube would have to be in the form of a cookie under the bullet or perhaps just fill the hollow base cavity with lube and call it good. I hope to find out.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 10, 2022 23:41:33 GMT -7
Daniel, I still have my old Ideal .577 Minie Ball mold that I used for the Colt Musket I used to have. I bought this back mid 1960's. It's marked: Ideal Middlefield, Conn U.S.A. The numbers are: a 44 in the top left corner above the Ideal. 575 & 213 on the corners just below the handle slot, & 498 down low center. It is a single mold. Can you use it?
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 11, 2022 7:26:37 GMT -7
Thanks Gary but we already have that one. The 575213 is the most common of the Lyman/Ideal 58 caliber designs. The one I am hunting for is # 57730 which looks like a 20 gauge foster slug but with lube grooves.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 11, 2022 8:10:27 GMT -7
OK, I thought if it would work for you, being that I don't have any use for it anymore, I would send it to you. I also have ones for .52 Sharps Percussion Carbine, Minie type & for .43 Spanish RN flat base that I don't have guns for anymore.
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Post by missionary on Mar 11, 2022 9:48:39 GMT -7
Hi Dan
I have not touched the 1865 yet and may not this year if the authorities permit us to stay past June. Rifle has a 33" barrel before conversion and the 1863 lock plate. So good possibility it was one of the Remington made rifles. If so it may have the 1-48 twist I have a photo looking down into the barrel fro the muzzle. The twist looks to be faster than what a 1-77 would.
But again whatever it is round ball is going to be our main use. Less pressure with 60 grain loads and more than enough zap for any critter we will use this for. Planning on a "car tire tie down" 3 round test before I shoot it regular. But from the looks of it by the photos it has been shot very little.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 11, 2022 9:52:33 GMT -7
If your mold for the 43 Spanish is the 439186 we already have that one. If other I would be interested. I am interested in the 52 caliber.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 11, 2022 15:49:04 GMT -7
I will box both of them up this weekend, maybe tonight if I can find a small one. The Sharps was the model that had the "pellet" primer system, along with the standard musket cap. I sure wish that I still owned it, as it was in very nice condition, & only paid $140 for it in 1968.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 11, 2022 16:29:26 GMT -7
It would be worth 100 times what you paid for it now.
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