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Post by Junior on Oct 18, 2021 12:13:32 GMT -7
I've made comments in the past that I wanted to get into a predator call, because I've never had any luck with mouth calls. I've been talking to a few local friends and one of them loaned me a set up to try. After church yesterday, my buddy roy wants to go out and check out a moose kill site he knew about, and I figured this would be a good chance to try out the call. We ended up driving all the way out the edge of unit 13. Snow was pretty deep, but we managed to make it in off the highway a ways in my suburban until we hit a drift we couldn't cross, and took off from there on foot. During the drive out, we had been playing with the call, and it seemed to be decent. It worked as a speaker, and your actually use your phone as a the controller and play sounds from that. Anyway, we walked out from the car about a half mile. temp was about 20 degrees. We find a good spot to set up, and we set up a little ways apart from each other, and the call won't work. So, we sit there for a minute, and I figure screw it, I'll blow on a mouth call a bit and see what happens. So I pulled out the hand call and started doing distress calls. Called for about 10 mins and then decided to turn around and glass the valley behind me. So, I'm laying on my belly under a small spruce tree, glassing this small valley and calling. I'd seen a couple ravens fly by, and then in the glasses, I didn't believe what I saw. Dad used to always tell me you can see things with good glass that you will never see with your naked eye, and I never believed it until last night. I've always just used my eye to find things, and then glasses to look at them. But as I look through the glasses, I swear I could see a wolf. Dropped the glasses and nothing. Looked through the glasses again and sure enough, that IS a freaking wolf, and he's moving towards us, but a long wants out, and kind of at a angle, so not straight towards us. I hissed roy "Roy, WOLF" but he thought I was screwing with him. Actually, I thought I was screwing with myself, since I've never had luck calling anything in before. Anyway, I finally get roy over to me, and looking at the wolf. The wolf stopped a ways out, and was pacing back and forth. he wasn't coming any closer. I hit him with the laser and he was 627 yards. I had a AR15 in 223 that's actually set up decent for long range, and had a good load, and was 99% confident in the shot. Shooting directly into the wind, and set up on the bipod and shove the butt of the rifle into the tree beside me and had a rock solid rest. looked at my dope, clicked in for 630 yards, and sit the cross hairs right on his back for the head wind. I waited and he stopped broadside and I squeezed off that shot. It was probably half a second, bit it seemed like 10 seconds and I watched that wolf in my scope, and then he takes off running. I managed to rack off 5 more shots at him before he was out of sight, and Roy got off two shots, but he does not shoot long range so was just put balling.
Now, we need to rewind just a bit to fully understand why I missed the shot that I was so confident in. Before we left, I had taken the rifle out and verified my 0. I've actually shot this rifle and load with 68gn Amax out to 800 yards in the past. 0 was good, and when I came back in the house to grab the rest of my gear, I set the rifle in the truck, and took the rest of my stuff in the house, and absentmindedly also brought in the box of ammo, and set it on my bench. Load up the rest of my stuff, and took off, leaving the ammo on the bench, thinking I had left it in the truck with the rifle. I realize that I had no ammo as we were gearing up to head out to the call stand, and Roy loaned me 6 rounds from his rifle. Now, I was not expecting to see a wolf, or really anything else, and I figured if we did see a fox or a coyote, I would be ok with unknown ammo within 100 yards. However, in the head of the moment, I completely forgot that little detail, and have no idea where the 55gn flat base hit at that range.
I learned a few valuable lessons, but unfortunately so did the wolf. But now, I'm thinking about building something a little better for calling then the 223 for those what if moments when something bigger then expected might come in.
Think I earned my dumbass award for the year.
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Post by missionary on Oct 18, 2021 16:25:52 GMT -7
That is one big part of hunting. We have all done the "DUH" and happily it did not cost us any hide. We learn and move on.
One Wednesday about 2 hours before mid-week church service I stopped by a place I hunted regular just to watch whatever was moving about. Our .223 24" heavy barrel was in the trunk and I should have remembered I am always hunting. But I left it in the trunk with all the right ammo.
Half hour later a couger walked across a field 85 yards away walking the crest facing north. It stopped at the fence around a pasture, sat on it's rump and placed it's front paws up on top of the fence watching. Real easy shot from my tree stand that faces east.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 19, 2021 8:23:56 GMT -7
Something I learned early on in my predator hunting is that for several reasons the 6mm caliber is superior to 22 caliber. I wont argue the fact that paper ballistics do show very impressive wind and drop figures in 22 cal when used with very high BC bullets but the fact remains that in real world use I have always gotten better results with the larger 6mm caliber. Both will show excellent paper ballistics with similar loads but the larger caliber has always shown better terminal performance . Here I am talking about coyotes which for a large one will be about one third the body weight of a large wolf.
Specifically for wolf hunting I would even look at stepping up a bit in caliber to 6.5mm.
You likely remember the 6.5/06 Ackley I built with the Pac-Nor 1/10" twist barrel. Something on that order should be about perfect for you. It makes 600 yard shots on wood chucks pretty easy. When used on smaller animals like fox and coyote I find that the higher BC bullets intended for bigger game are not too destructive as they are constructed for more controlled expansion but when used on something the size of a wolf you have all you need. Trajectories with the heavier bullets are higher for sure but we can calculate that exactly. The greatest benefit to the heavier weight higher BC bullets is in wind drift which is far more difficult to calculate quickly than drop.
Your story reminds me of the first coyote I ever called in and killed. Because of a long series of unsuccessful attempts at calling I was very surprised to finally see one come in. So surprised in fact that I blew the shot at him sitting up looking straight at me at about 75 yards. With the first shot miss I got off one more running shot but thought I missed. A few minutes later a fella came strolling over the hill to see what the shooting was about. I told him what had happened and that I missed but he said from over the hill the second shot sounded like a hit. That made me curious so I went and found the dead head shot coyote. Now this was no prize coyote because he must have been nearly blind from the thick cataracts on his eyes and from the skunk and porky quills must have been having a rough go of it. He also only had half a tail so must have had another near miss experience. No matter though this was my first called coyote and I was proud. The real benefit for me was the fact that just as I was about to give up trying I had a success that gave me the boost to keep trying and learning and should be a good example for you too.
Now so many years and coyotes later I am glad I didn't quit. I am now at a point in my life where I think about the things I may be remembered for and being a successful coyote hunter is one of those things I give a pleasant nod to.
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Post by Junior on Oct 19, 2021 9:42:45 GMT -7
I used to have a AR 15 in 6.5 Grendel which would have been a much better choice for that shot. However, the 223 is the only small bore I own right now, and heading out. I had 0 intention of making a shot that long, or at a wolf. However, I was still very confident in the shot since I’ve made 600 yard shots on paper and steel 1000 times. Unfortunately the ammo mix up was forgotten about in the heat of the moment.
I’m going to Fairbanks today, and plan on making a few call stands on the way back from the big city.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 19, 2021 11:58:32 GMT -7
Maybe you should start thinking about a purpose specific custom build. Make it a slow process so the expense can be spread out over time so it seems not overwhelming all at once.
I just got my 50-90 done and that took quite a long time with parts purchases spread out so it didn't seem so bad even though the total was fairly high at about $1,200.00 including good sights. Shoots good too ! Our deer and elk general season starts Saturday and I believe Lord willing it will see some action. I Worked out a good load with a 630gn paper patch bullet with a duplex smokeless load of 9gn IMR 4895 under 63gn of surplus WC-870. Velocity is right at 1200 fps average. I am guessing they go sub sonic within the first 100 yards and after that its smooth sailing with reduced drag. I have sight settings figured out confirmed with shooting in 50 yard intervals out to 350 yards. This rifle shoots good and hits hard.
I was going to use BP but since the surplus WC-870 is so cheap I decided to keep the BP in reserve for muzzleloaders. If I don't fill my tags in the general season for the first time this year we have a muzzleloader season starting Dec 10 and runs for 9 days.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 19, 2021 12:28:57 GMT -7
Howdy Dan! Hope all is well with you and yours! I may have missed it someplace but what platform did you use for your 50-90 build? If you already posted that information just point me in the right direction, I sure don’t wanna make it any harder for a poor old guy like you bud!🤣 You know I’m laughing and have a huge smile on my face as I say and type this! I promise you there’s no don’t in my mind at all that you are in much much better shape than me my friend!! I can’t wait for Saturday to get here so I can hear how your hunt went. Our rifle deer season opened this past Saturday but I refuse to go when the temp is still almost 80 degrees for the hi!! Way too many ticks, fleas and other stuff I don’t want with my meat thank you! If I can I always like to wait till after our first good frost anyway. Good luck on the upcoming hunting brother, I’ll be sure and say an extra hunters prayer!
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Post by Junior on Oct 19, 2021 13:56:44 GMT -7
Nah, I’m too impatient for that. I just bought a Tikka T3 Lite in 6.5 creedmoor while I was in Fairbanks.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 19, 2021 15:50:53 GMT -7
Jr. -- That will work just fine. Remember though that making long range first shot hits requires a shooting system not just a good rifle. Your rifle, scope, range finder, weather station, and computer program all have to work together to make it consistently happen. Then there is the homework before the test in load development and proper zero of the rifle. If shooting factory ammo finding one that gives the best compromise between accuracy and velocity consistency.
Brother Mike, you know I love you man and I doubt you could hurt my feelings if you tried. As for the 50-90 this is the first time I have mentioned it because it has been an on again off again project for so long. It is hunt ready now though. I may at some point upgrade the wood as right now it has sporterized military wood. I talked to a wood guy not too far from me and he will sell a roughed out stock set for $150.00 . He will be at a gun show in Butte this week end so I am torn between opening day or gun show.
The build is on a Remington #5 smokeless action that was rather sad when I got it but now after re-case hardening in the old bone and charcoal system it is beautiful.
It had the wrong #1 breach block when I got it so I had to hunt down a #5 breach block and correct rotary extractor where it had the straight extractor when I got it. I made due with the #1 hammer as it is a tight fit to the block even though the high spur is just not right on a smokeless action. If you didn't know it looks good but if you do know it just don't look right.
The barrel is one of the Numrich Arms kit barrels they used to offer in 45-70 back when these rollers were dirt cheap. I sent it to Jess to re-bore to 50 and chamber for the 50-90 Shiloh. The Shiloh chamber is just a bit tighter than the original 50-90 Sharps so you don't get the bulge just ahead of the case web. I dont have to size cases at all to reload accept to run them into the sizer a wee bit after the paper patch bullets are hand seated. I am using my old 50-70 FL die for that. Not enough to get a real tight bullet pull but just enough that they are not likely to fall out. They can still be turned in the case with fingers so not real tight.
Oh sometime back I might have mentioned I got in touch with the man in Canada that used to sell the Parts Unknown sights. I asked about a hunting sight for this project and he was able to find enough parts to put one together so my rear sight is a good one very sturdy with Vernier scale so very repeatable. It has no adjuster screw just the slide that locks with the eyecup. I specifically told him I wanted a hunting sight not a target sight and he knew exactly what I meant.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 19, 2021 21:57:01 GMT -7
Well, I’m not sure if you were referring to brother Mike or me my friend, either way it’s such a small and cozy family that mostly post here all will benefit either way!😁 The platform rifle sounds pretty dog gone amazing to me! Leave it to Dan the man to acquire parts and pieces from here and there, throw them into the melting pot and come out with something pretty amazing to say the least! It was interesting that you said once they were loaded you could still turn them with your fingers, I take that to mean there’s little to no crimp involved at all then? Does just running them thru the sizing did provide enough of a grip for lack of a better term? If so, do you think this is how most of the cartridges were back in the day? I just was curious if you knew if the factory rounds from 100 plus years ago really required any type of crimp since they all would be loaded one at a time. I also thought it was super cool to hear you say you used the old bone and charcoal method for the case coloring! I’ve always wanted to experiment with that just to see how it might turn out! Best of luck to you my friend! Whether you go to the show or if you go hunting on opening day! I always try to avoid opening day just because there seem to be far too many folks running around getting in the way of any serious hunting for me anyway! Keep us posted on the progress of the project please!👍
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Post by Junior on Oct 20, 2021 7:52:48 GMT -7
I didn’t go into much detail yesterday about the new rifle, so here we go.
This was not actually a impulse buy. I’ve been eye balling the Tikka rifles for awhile. Originally was kind of thinking about a 308 or a 7mm/08 but the creedmoor came along in a left handed and I got a good deal on it.
Rifle is the Tikka T3x super lite, stainless fluted barrel and weights just under 6lb without the scope. I mounted a Vortex 4-14 FFP scope on it and put a bipod and a sling on it. haven’t weighed it but the whole set up is VERY light, much lighter then my AR15.
Tikka guarantees sub 1 MOA. I picked up brass, dies and 2 boxes of 140gn Hornady ELD-X bullets to start working up some loads. Probably not the best long range set up, but will be a great hunting rifle I think.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 20, 2021 8:27:06 GMT -7
Oops, sorry Rob I was thinking your question came from Mike, my mistake. With the bullet I am shooting a 630gn paper patch or with any paper patch bullet conventional roll crimping is out because it damages the paper patch. With vintage factory ammo and arsenal ammo for 50-70 and 45-70 as well as service revolver rounds yes indeed they were heavily crimped but they used conventional lubed bullets.
I have some vintage BP 45-70 rounds and they are crimped. I also have an interesting collection of fired bullets collected from the area on the North Dakota and Montana border between Fort Union on the Montana side and Fort Buford on the ND side. All these recovered bullets from arsenal rounds show a prominent crimp mark in the bullet nose just ahead of the top lube groove.
I whole heartedly agree with you about opening day so will likely take Tina to Butte so she can shop a bit while I stroll the isles. I will also likely go out for just a wee bit early in the AM because there is an area of state land across the interstate from me maybe about 800 yards from my house that has been designated for muzzleloaders only. The reason is that during open season some elk herds have crossed there and because there is a county road junction there it has in the past set up a frenzied cross fire where hunters are shooting at each other and numerous elk wounded in the frenzy that the game warden had to track down or follow up to dispatch and remove the carcass. It was a surreal scene ! To prevent a recurrence they have designated that area as muzzleloader only and since until this year MT has not had a ML season so no one hunts with them which I am hoping means I will be alone there.
From my tree stand in a big cottonwood I can glass across the interstate and see large herds of elk on the private lands surrounding the state land. Since the state land has large areas that were used to extract gravel there are low spots that go down to the water table so there is open water. Also because of the close proximity to water there is lush green grass there. Those elk herds as well as mule and WT deer constantly move in and out of those old pits so its just a matter of timing. I have been in there with a ML when there were elk herds just across the fence maybe 50 yards away but on private land. Every so often the ranchers go in and push the elk out so the vehicle mounted vultures that constantly circling during season get into their blood lust cross fires where who know what will happen.
Last year I got my elk right from my tree stand known as "" The Reapers Roost "" because one of those times the elk crossed the interstate when they were cut off by that firing squad from heading back to the hills. Ya never know !
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Post by Junior on Oct 20, 2021 11:00:20 GMT -7
Let’s talk about barrel break in.
I bought 2 boxes of factory ammo, mostly for the brass, but figured I would use the cheap FMJ ammo for the barre break in.
I was planning to shoot 40 rounds in batches of 5 cleaning between each group of 5, but just curious if I should be doing it a different way.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 20, 2021 12:56:39 GMT -7
Personally I don't know for sure. I have bought used old guns that I am pretty sure didn't have a ""PROPER BREAK IN "" but after a good thorough cleaning shot good.
I hate to be one that just parrots something I have heard without proving it myself. Maybe though that normally suggested break in procedure make the
"" thorough cleaning "" easier.
The standard suggested procedure is clean after each shot of the first 5 to 10 then go to intervals of 5 for the next 50. Maybe you remember the 300 win mag I put together for Paul Varobiov with the brand new Pac-Nor barrel. He didn't do any kind of break in and for the first 50 shots its accuracy was disappointing. The after 50 shots it was like someone flipped a switch from off to on and that rifle became amazingly accurate and that was with the very light for caliber 125gn bullets he wanted the rifle built for. For that first 50 shots though I was worried we may have damaged a new barrel without "" proper break in "" That fear was proven unfounded.
My version of proper break in is to first shoot about 100 rounds of cast bullets at a mid range velocity with a fairly hard bullet alloy. That seems to smooth things out and gives me a chance to get a feel for the rifle inexpensively. Shooting paper patch bullets has the same smoothing effect and likely produces and even smoother polished bore. Hand lapping is also an option but not nearly as much fun. With hand lapping though if you have the time and patience you can lap in a slight amount of choke at the muzzle. The best rifle builders in the heyday of Shootzen competition all lapped some amount of choke into their barrels. Maybe that helps or maybe not but for sure loose at the muzzle kills accuracy.
Which ever way you go remember for that first 50 rounds Sweets is you friend but also remember never leave it in the barrel for more than 15 minute intervals. It for sure gets the copper out but given enough time can attack the steel.
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Post by Junior on Oct 20, 2021 21:06:16 GMT -7
I had to work on my wife’s car tonight after work, which didn’t give me much time to shoot since Dark is coming on pretty fast this time of year.
I did fire 12 rounds, cleaning every 3 rounds, and got it sighted in for the factory 140gn ammo I have, but didn’t get a chance to test it for accuracy. Hopefully tomorrow, I’ll get to load some ammo after work, and finish the barrel break in. I’ll be shooting 6 rounds between cleanings from here out, 1 fouler and then 5 for group to start working up loads, instead of just wasting bullets that are hard to find right now.
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Post by Junior on Oct 20, 2021 21:09:05 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 21, 2021 7:28:39 GMT -7
You really should be chronographing your factory ammo. What you are looking for is the smallest extreme velocity spreads. Close range accuracy can be very good even with wide extreme velocity spreads but without consistent velocity will fall apart at long range giving unacceptably large vertical dispersion of POI.
Single digit velocity spreads are what we hope for but awfully hard to get. In the teens is acceptable but beyond that not so good.
You can work up a good graphic by running your ballistic program at 10 fps velocity changes and see the effect when you get to the higher extreme spreads of 50 to 100 fps. It not only affects vertical dispersion but the wider variable in TOF also affects wind drift.
When you are trying to stay within a 6" kill zone at 800 yards it all matters.
Oh I see you got another lefty !
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Post by Junior on Oct 21, 2021 16:04:20 GMT -7
I didn’t really feel the need to chronograph the factory rounds as once these two boxes are shot up for the barrel break in, I highly doubt that I will buy any more. I have the dies for the rifle, and several different 6.5 bullets on hand.
As a matter of fact, I never would have bought factory for it, except that I don’t have a neck turner, and the only brass I have to form from is 30/06 and I felt that those would be too thick in the necks with out turning, and 22/250s come up a bit short for my liking once fire formed.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 21, 2021 19:57:43 GMT -7
Gotta agree with my partner about the barrel break in and for sure the cleaning between fired rounds with the sweets, I can’t tell you enough on how careful to be with it though! It’s great stuff to remove the copper fouling but I’ve seen more than one fella ruin his bore by leaving it too long in there! I’m also a big fan of using JB bore paste to lap the bore, especially if it’s a new rifle I’m using. For some reason I’ve always had my rifles shoot more accurate after using it to lap the bore and remove any fouling or “micro burrs” for lack of a better term. This is just something that’s always worked for me and I’m pretty sure I’ve used it on all the rifles I own. I’ve had the same little jar of bore paste for probably 30 years now and it’s still at least half full so a little goes a long long way! Best of luck to you fellas!!😁
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Post by missionary on Oct 22, 2021 17:27:26 GMT -7
A feller I have known for years told me long ago he recommended firing one round then cleaning the barrel and to repeat that 5 times to be sure all the machining chips were removed as fast as possible.
Then switch to 5 rounds, then 10 rounds with a good cleaning in between. This was all with jacketed.
I did it a couple times and those barrels do shoot well.
We have also some barrels that have only tasted cast. Some were fired lapped with very fine valve lap, then cleaned, then metal polish and also shoot very well.
Some were never lapped but but cleaned after a few rounds each course shooting cast adding rounds between cleaning. They also shoot well.
Maybe it is like any other machine.... Break it in easy. Keep it real clean at first. Then use it but think about long life and not stress it overly unless there is a big need to.
When were issued a new caliber .30 or caliber .50 MG barrel no one ever said anything about cleaning it after each shot at first. But it was stressed that no more than 25 round bursts and to never let it get "glow in the dark" red.
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Post by Junior on Oct 23, 2021 16:41:48 GMT -7
I had to drive out to the end of sawmill creek today for work. As I was getting my stuff in the company truck I grabbed my rifle, and this figured nah, better not risk it.
Wish I had. Wolf standing 150 yards from the road just past barley way. I saw on the road and howled Baxter and forth with him for 15 mins or so. Would have been a easy shot.
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Post by Junior on Oct 23, 2021 16:42:56 GMT -7
 photo didn’t attach to the first post. Crappy cell phone picture, so I circled the wolf to make him easier to find. |
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 23, 2021 17:22:52 GMT -7
One alone this time of year is probably a young male banished from the pack by the alpha.
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Post by Junior on Oct 24, 2021 0:22:17 GMT -7
We connected tonight! My first fur since moving back to Alaska. had to go to Fairbanks tonight after work, and on the way back well after dark, I thought I saw something cross the road way down the road as far as my moose lights would shine. I mentally marked the location and came to a stop at the located. I had the 6.5 creedmoor behind the seat, and a magazine full of the factory 140gn FMJ rounds since I hadn’t gotten a chance to load any rounds yet. I grabbed my calls and and rifle, and gave a few blows on the call. Set the rifle on the hood to get myself better adjusted, and then gave two more blows and up he pops at 70 yards. Pretty dark out, but I could see he was looking at me and I could see his eyes. I set the crosshairs just below the eyes and touched it off and he disappeared. Grabbed a light and went and found his dropped right where I shot him at. The 140 FMJ pretty well gutted him unfortunately, but still pretty happy to get the first fur for the season.  |
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Post by missionary on Oct 24, 2021 5:34:32 GMT -7
That is a fine way to start the fur stack !
So the "blow hard" call did the job.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 24, 2021 12:37:40 GMT -7
Nice little red ! Reds from down here have not been worth much. Reds from up there do pretty fair at auction. NAFA is re-structuring after bankruptcy. They got stiffed by some Euro buyers for several million. I hope they get it together. There is a demand but without NAFA no system in place to broker buyers with sellers. In the last auction I knew of the single highest coyote went for over $500.00 to an Italian buyer. The fur came from Alberta Canada. The year I got top lot trapper one of my coyotes sold for the highest price at that auction. That coyote came from Saco which is about 25 miles from the Alberta border.
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Post by Junior on Oct 25, 2021 11:08:02 GMT -7
It was a decent fox, but unfortunately that 6.5 creedmoor did a number on him even with the FMJ bullet. I hit him in the front of the left shoulder, and the bullet exited the fight side of his rib cage, a perfect heart shot. Unfortunately the bullet took a lot of the fox with it through the exit hole. We got the hole tacked up on the stretcher board, so I didn’t get a photo of that, but I did get a photo of the carcass. I really didn’t think the FMJ bullet would do that, but I will have to think twice before whacking any more fixes with this rifle.  |
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 25, 2021 13:47:37 GMT -7
i didn't see that one coming either. the last red fox i got, to be 3 or 4 years ago, was with the 20 vartarg and 34gr midway/midsouth hp. i think the fox was about 100 yards and i shot it in the shoulder but there was no exit wound. just lung soup with pieces of heart.
my younger brother is a trapper, he likes to use his ar15 diamondback in 223 rem with 55gr midway/midsouth hp. he shot foxes and coyotes with it and it exited like a fmj would.....er well, should have.
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Post by Junior on Oct 25, 2021 15:00:36 GMT -7
I think if I would have shot that fox broadside it would have just poked in and out and been fine. But that front shot going through the shoulder and ribs and coming out the soft part of the belly did a number on the young fox.
Should still make a nice hat. He is on the stretcher now, and I’ll probably try my hand at tanning him in December or so.
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Post by Junior on Nov 2, 2021 12:58:14 GMT -7
Im a bit disappointed with the accuracy of the Tikka.
Ive tried 2 different factory loads, and 2 bullets and a couple different powders and so far haven't had much luck. Tikka promises sub 1 MOA out of the box, but I haven't gotten into shoot any better then that yet. Seems like most of the time I'm getting horizontal stringing, so I'm going to try bedding the rifle, but I won't have time to do it yet.
All the bullets I've tried are 140gn, so I may try some 120s and see if it likes those better. I've also been using Winchester primers, because that's all I have on hand, but I may have to get some other primers off of a friend and see if it does better with better primers. Ive never been a fan of Winchester primers.
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