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Post by Junior on Sept 25, 2021 0:30:05 GMT -7
A couple weeks ago my friend and hunting buddy asked me if I had any ideas to get his 10 year old son practiced up with shotguns. His son is starting to show a lot of interest in hunting, and had been sitting out in the water foul stand with Roy. Roy had bought him a Remington 870 youth in 20ga last year at a gunshot we went to together. Now, out behind my house I have a gravel pit on my property that about 50 yards around and 25' deep. I have a old spring loaded skeet thrower that I found somewhere, so I suggested we clear the brush around the pit and mount the skeet thrower on the bank so it launches birds out over the pit where they have a good view as they go over the pit. I cleared brush and mounted the skeet thrower, and then cleared shooting pads at about 1:30, 3, 9, and 10:30 positions so we can shoot with birds going straight ahead and from the left or right at varying angles.A few new springs on the launcher, and a new pull rope, and we were in business. I went out and bought a cheap Zastava M80 over under 12ga. Matthew (The 10 year old) caught onto the shotgun really quick with a little instruction on lead, and was busting birds in no time. The tall grass on the back side of the pit catches the birds nice and gently and we are able to collect the unbroken birds for reuse. The practice paid off and Matthew bagged his first sandhill crane the other day with a great 45ish yard shot on a flying crane, with a 3" load of #2 steel shot from his 20ga. He has also managed to bag several grouse on the fly. Pretty proud of the kid. ED1727BF-5DE4-4AE7-BDD1-83EC378E3334.heic (561.49 KB) Anyway. I had a lot of fun busting skeet with the guys the last couple weeks, and realized I'm not as good with a shotgun as I thought I was. So the Zastava O/U is seeing quite a bit of use, going through 100 rounds or so a week right now. Roy has invited me out several times to go crane hunting, and I turned him down the first quite a few times, but finally went with him. Armed with the Zastava with some 2.75" rounds loaded with #2 steel, we got to the lay out blinds and settled in. At first I was not impressed, but once the birds started flying it was a whole different game. Its like shooting pterodactyls, and I had so much fun, I actually went out to day and bought a dedicated waterfowl gun, a Mossberg semi auto capable of handling 3.5" shells to have a little extra range. I wanted a 10ga, but couldn't find one up here. We are going out again tomorrow AM and I'm looking forward to bringing home some more "ribeye on the sky", which is fricking delicious. I always thought they would taste like mud, but I was very, very wrong. This new hobby is gonna get expensive.
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Post by Junior on Sept 25, 2021 0:41:29 GMT -7
Well, apparently my photos didn’t attach to my first post, so let’s try again.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 25, 2021 7:01:29 GMT -7
Waterfowl and bison hunting is big business for the large farms in the Delta area. Remember when shooting steel less choke is more. Choking for steel is opposite of lead. Great doings with the 10 YO lad. Reminds me of your first rabbit when I told you when you could keep all your shots on this small target you were ready and by golly you were making a head shot (all you could see) on your first rabbit. The reward to the mentor is also priceless. That is why I saved that moose trophy for so long that I recently sent you from our first moose together.
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Post by Junior on Sept 25, 2021 8:02:44 GMT -7
And that is now mounted and displayed proudly over my reloading bench.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 25, 2021 8:20:33 GMT -7
Jr, first good on you for taking the time and effort to help a young kid get into guns and hunting! That’s some of that good Karma that’s gonna come back to you, believe me my friend it really does work when you least expect it! I’ve fired more shotgun rounds than anyone I know and that’s quite a few, up in AK I was even a member of the two man team that won the Pacific command Skeet and Trap championship(don’t know if you ever remember seeing it but I gave your dad the jacket I won🤣) as you seem to have found out I never was hooked or very good on the over/under style shotguns, you will be much happier with the semi auto and it going all the way up to 3.5” shells you don’t need a 10ga, trust me! A 3.5” will do anything a 10ga will do and the shells are cheaper also, if you don’t reload shotgun rounds. Sand hill cranes are know as the filet mignon of the sky! They aren’t very pretty to me but they are fantastic eating! Good luck and keep us posted!!!
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Post by Junior on Sept 25, 2021 15:47:23 GMT -7
I worked on patterning the Zastava today. I don’t read Russian very well, but best I can make out is it says “choke 1” on the top barrel (rear trigger) and “choke 1/2” on the bottom barrel. The chokes measure out to .695” and .674” so I’m guessing full and extra full. It patterns very tight with #8 target loads, but the #3 steel loads barely hit the 30” paper at 25 yards. Looks like it will be a good skeet gun, but the extra full is probably too much for shooting game with lead shot, and too tight for steel.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 25, 2021 15:55:48 GMT -7
Next time look at guns with removable choke.
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Post by Junior on Sept 25, 2021 17:51:08 GMT -7
Normally I would have, however I got the Zastava for $100 and as I didn’t really expect to use it much, I couldn’t really justify being picky about it not being threaded. However, I’ve come to like the thing.
The new mossberg will have a threaded choke.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 25, 2021 18:47:34 GMT -7
I'll give you your money back on the Zastava .
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Post by missionary on Sept 25, 2021 19:34:00 GMT -7
A reamer will open shotgun chokes nicely.
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Post by Junior on Sept 27, 2021 1:26:32 GMT -7
For shooting skeet with #8 shot, I actually really like the choke set up on the Zastava. It takes a little better aim to hit birds, and rewards with it nice dusted bird and that is quite satisfying.
I bought another case of 12ga #8 shot shells today. My friend and I went through about 3 boxes Saturday night shooting skeet with his son. at around 9 bucks a box per 25, I think it may actually finally be justifiable to hand load shotgun shells, since I can load them for about 20 cents each, or $5 per box if I'm doing my math correctly. Shotgun components are still readily available too.
I priced out factory 3.5" shells today, and I think I will defiantly be loading those for waterfowl.The price difference between 3" and 3.5" is astronomical.
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Post by Junior on Sept 30, 2021 14:36:47 GMT -7
The new Mossberg 935 finally showed up. Pretty nice shotgun I think. I looked at a lot of other guns before settling on the Mossberg, and the Mossberg was the only one in the price range that was American made. Almost every single other one was made in Turkey. Anyway, the first order of business once getting it home was to see if it would cycle cheap 2.75" target loads. I figured with the gun being designed for heavy waterfowl loads, it wouldn't cycle the light stuff, but was pleasantly surprised that it had no hiccups with the shorter lower powered shells. The next order of business was to adjust the stock. Out of the box the gun hit noticeably high for me. It came with a set of stock spacers to just the angle of the stock. A .250" drop fixed me right up and got my POI to my POA. Finally the final order of business was to pattern a few loads. I had two different brands of BB 3" shells, Remington 1 1/4oz pushing 1400 FPS and Kent 1 1/8oz advertised at 1560 FPS. I had read online that after 1400 FPS most loads start to open up on patten a bit. I did find the Remington loads to put a few more pellets on paper, however it also holds more shot. The Kent rounds had noticeably higher recoil. Patterning was done on 24" squares of paper at 35 yards, and results are as follows. I tried all three chokes that came with the gun with these loads. Numbers are pellets in paper at 35 yards. Improved Cylinder Remington - 47 Kent - 35 Modified Remington - 60 Kent - 53 Full Remington - 58 Kent - 48 Both of the BB loads performed best with a modified choke. The next load I tried was a box of Federal Black Cloud 2.75" shells firing a 1 1/8oz load of #3 steel shot at 1500 FPS. This load surprised me as it liked the full choke the best, and was a drastic difference between modified and full choke. The full choke put 132 pellets on paper at 35 yards, where the modified only put 54 pellets on paper. I did start to test of #4 load shot, but the ammo I had was old and I had a case head rupture and decided to not shoot any more of that ammo through my brand new gun and risk harming a extractor or something. For what ever reason the forum is not letting me post photos again. I will try to get back on later and post photos. I am just getting over a cold so probably won't be out doing much bunting any time soon, but I might. Never know. Attachments:IMG_1253.heic (896.16 KB)
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 30, 2021 15:36:15 GMT -7
Question, will shooting steel shot ware out a full choke and if yes in how many rounds is it no longer a full choke ?
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Post by Junior on Sept 30, 2021 17:11:20 GMT -7
Thats a interesting question, and leads to the next part of this discussion.
I found it interesting that the Federal Black Cloud ammo patterned so well in my Mossberg full choke, but patterned like complete crap from the full choke on my Zastava. So I broke out my calipers and measured the chokes on the Zastava, and they were .695" and .680" which according to the sizing charts I can find, puts the chokes at full and extra full, which is what I thought the gun had.
Now, the Mossberg full choke is marked "Full 730" and I didn't think much of it until I measured it and it measures .730", which is bore diameter of a 12ga and listed as a cylinder bore on the choke chart I have. The Mossberg modified and Improved cylinder measure .750" and .765" which is actually bigger then what the bore on a shotgun should be. According to Mossberg their barrels are supposed to be bored a .730" +/-.001"
So, I'm guessing that Mossberg, and probably other brands as well, are marking chokes that come with guns designed primarily for water fowl much different then that old standard for chokes designed for lead.
Unfortunately there really isn't a lot out there about shotgun chokes and what causes them to do what that I have found on the internet, and I think that has to do with most people just buying shotguns and going duck hunting vs actually spending some time getting to know what the gun will do with what loads. Back in the day when lead was the standard it may have been common knowledge that a tight choke meant tighter patterns, but this does not seem to be the case with modern loads and chokes. Many new loadings, like the Black Cloud from federal use different types of wads, and I suppose that would make chokes behave different too. The black cloud ammo has a interesting wad design that opens from the rear instead of the front and is supposed to help keep the shot tighter.
Anyway. I would think that shooting a high volume of steel from a true full choke may over time open it up, but I don't think a box or so a year will hurt it.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 30, 2021 18:44:10 GMT -7
That is interesting and explains my confusion on why your full choke patterned so well with steel shot when to my thinking it should not have. The answer as I now see it is that it was not really a full choke as a traditional full choke is. So with that in mind I wonder do they offer a traditional full choke diameter but call it something else ?
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Post by Junior on Oct 1, 2021 1:26:33 GMT -7
Yes, it seems that the more traditional size chokes are now called “Turkey” chokes. So a Turkey full is the same as what a old full would have been. At least with mossberg. Other brands may be doing something different.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 1, 2021 6:04:44 GMT -7
That can get confusing. I guess you need to add a choke measuring tool to your key chain.
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Post by Junior on Oct 1, 2021 11:36:08 GMT -7
Well, we can blow that whole theory out of the water.
I was getting ready to order a couple of extended choke tubes for my shotgun, and was gonna get one for my friends Benelli while I was making a order. When I opened up the page for Benelli chokes, I noticed that the choke numbers for his gun where much closer to the traditional choke numbers on my choke chart. So then I looked up chokes for a regular old Mossberg 500 pump action, and they were right on with the traditional numbers as well. So I started doing a little more digging.
The Mossberg 935 magnum waterfowl guns are over bored. How much, I can't find a definite answer, but I'm thinking around .035". Why do they do this you ask? I found this on the Browning website about their back bored shotguns.
Better patterns and increased shot velocity help you hit what you're shooting at. A back-bored barrel is a shotgun barrel that has a bore diameter increased beyond maximum specifications. Increasing the bore diameter of a shotgun barrel greatly enhances its performance. A larger bore diameter reduces friction of the shot charge against the barrel wall. Instead of trying to overcome friction, powder gases expend more energy on the wad base, resulting in an increase in shot velocity. Because there is less constriction or pressure from the barrel walls on a shot charge, there are fewer deformed shot pellets. A greater number of ballistically superior round pellets in a shot charge gives you exceptionally uniform patterns -- delivering more shot pellets in the effective part of your pattern. The effortless transition of a shot charge through a barrel with a larger bore diameter results in a reduction in perceived recoil. Every reduction in recoil results in an increase in shooting comfort. Therfore, less felt recoil makes your shooting more enjoyable. Who benefits from back-boring? A first time hunter, seasoned wingshot or competitive target shooter all benefit from a back-bored shotgun. More uniform patterns result in better hits and more smoked targets.
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Post by Junior on Oct 1, 2021 11:47:30 GMT -7
And I just found this on the Mossberg site.
"All smoothbore 835 and 935 models are overbored to 10 gauge dimensions, which reduces pellet deformation for exceptionally uniform, dense patterns."
Also, doing some more reading and research, it appears that the Mossberg is over bored .044"
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 1, 2021 12:00:31 GMT -7
I call BS to about half of what is in that statement from the Browning site. First of all the barrel exerts no pressure on the shot column. That is completely backwards it is the shot column exerting pressure on the barrel. Now think about what they are saying. What they are saying is that a 12 bore is no longer a 12 bore but a 13 bore. If you apply the physics a 13 bore will produce a lower chamber pressure than a 12 bore with the same loads. Lower pressure means less felt recoil. Lower pressure also means less deforming of the shot resulting in more dense patterns. Apply the same logic ( physics) to the 12 bore and achieve the same results by simply reducing chamber pressure equaling that of the 13 bore with 12 bore loads. To me the whole thing smells of smoke and mirrors to sell a product that is not needed. All you really need is a 12 bore loading press and components and to DEVELOPE you own loads that give the same results. One mans opinion based on the applied physics.
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Post by Junior on Oct 1, 2021 12:46:49 GMT -7
Interestingly enough, after reading about the over bore and blah blah blah, one of the things that caught my attention was their claim to higher velocities from the over bored barrel. So I put this to the test. Both the Mossberg and my Zastava have 28" barrels. I put my full choke in the Mossberg, and used the full choke barrel on the Zastava, and fired 3 rounds from each of several different 2.75" 12 gauge rounds I had on hand. The Mossberg consistently got about 30 FPS higher velocity then the Zastava did.
My friend has a Benelli SBE3 that is very similar to my Mossberg, 28" 3.5" chambers and the works, but his has a standard bore. I just ordered a extended choke set for my gun, and he already has th same brand extended choke set. Once my chokes come in, I think I am going to attempt to do a more scientific study between the two guns, testing velocity and patterning with the two guns with a variety of loads, including the 3.5" magnums that supposedly the Mossberg is supposed to do better with.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 1, 2021 13:21:37 GMT -7
When I look at load data I like a source that includes chamber pressure. The reason is that I am looking for the highest velocity at the lowest pressure. Just by powder choice you can often juggle chamber pressures by a couple thousand psi but not sacrifice much for velocity. Remember too that powders that deliver equal velocity at lower pressure are also capable of delivering higher velocity at equal pressure.
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Post by Junior on Oct 1, 2021 13:28:48 GMT -7
I'm looking into the equipment and supplies to load shotgun shells, however most places seem to be out of stock on shotgun components as they are more focused on rifle and pistol products.
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Post by Junior on Oct 2, 2021 16:26:15 GMT -7
Finally got the stupid photos to upload. mossberg 935 on top and Zastava M80 on the bottom.
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Post by Junior on Oct 4, 2021 23:38:15 GMT -7
My Carlson extended choke tubes for the mossberg showed up today. I got a set of three, which include a improved cylinder, modified, and full chokes for steel shot. I only tested the full and modified chokes, and only tested with the ammo that performed the worst, the Kent 3” BB loads. The ammo still performed the best with the modified choke putting 96 pellets on the 24” paper, and 60 pellets with the full choke. Compared to 48 with the factory full choke, and 53 with the factory modified, I say it was a definite improvement
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 5, 2021 17:29:19 GMT -7
A local scrounger that brings me stuff to trade for ammo brought me something interesting today. One of those things is a package of choke tubes and wrench. There are 4 total choke tubes but they are duplicates of two. There is a small chart in the package and that is what is interesting and pertains to this thread. The chart reads, Rim markings ----- Patterns with lead ----- patterns with steel * ----- full ----- do not use ** ----- imp. modified ----- do not use *** ----- modified ----- modified-full **** ----- imp. cylinder ----- modified-full ***** ----- cylinder ----- imp cylinder-modified
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Post by Junior on Oct 7, 2021 6:28:21 GMT -7
Well, I had to go to Fairbanks today. I picked up 20 different boxes of 12ga Ammo to try in this Mossberg, Mostly 3" steel shot, but also some 2.75" steel, and some heavy lea loads, 3" #4 shot and the likes. I still haven't managed to find any 3.5" shells. However, I've seen no shortage of 10ga ammo this year.
Got steel shot, I got everything from #7 all the way up to F shot. I believe T is the largest shot allowed to be used for waterfowl, but I got a good deal on the box of F so I figured what the heck.
For lead, I grabbed some heavy game loads in both 4 and 6 shot in 2.75" shells and some 3" #2 lead.
I also grabbed 200 patterning papers. My shotgunning buddy thinks I'm crazy, but I'm determined to find out the best load for this gun, and what exactly is supposed to be better about the over bored barrel.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 7, 2021 7:38:41 GMT -7
In my opinion and I would think backed by the physics involved and by your description of back boring what is being done is increasing the bore diameter so in tern increasing expansion ratio. The physical effect will be to reduce chamber pressure of any given load. In my opinion reducing pressure can not increase velocity. I will confess there are physical properties that I am not aware of dealing with the coefficient of friction of the wad to the barrel. In the Browning explanation you posted they said it reduces the pressure the barrel exerts on the wad but that is backwards as the barrel is exerting no pressure but the wad is exerting an equal amount of pressure to the chamber pressure that is propelling the shot column down the barrel. So there may be some physical relationship between the shot cup material and allowable pressure in relation to the coefficient of friction between the barrel steel and the wad material that has some effect on velocity. Going again to the Browning info they state that back boring reduces drag or friction in the barrel and I am with that because that is the physical relationship across the board increased bore diameter equals reduced pressure equals reduced drag. As for the wad material and its coefficient of friction variability at different pressure I do not know but in the same situation when applied to lead alloy bullets reduced pressure translates to reduced velocity not increased velocity as Browning has stated for back boring. I really just don't get it !
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Post by Junior on Oct 7, 2021 9:04:17 GMT -7
I haven’t gotten a real chance to test velocity again a standard bored gun. I tested 1 load in my Zastava and the mossberg and with that 1 load, the mossberg did get about 35fps higher average. Both are 28” barrels, but the mossberg is gas operated.
I think that the big bore diameter on the mossberg will come into play with patterning with the heavy 3.5” loads with big shot. I was reading that the shot cloud can be as long as 10 feet long with the bigger shells as tight bores, and the over boring is supposed to help keep that shot stream shorter, but I have no idea how to even begin testing that. Pattern testing is easy. Shot cloud length? That’s a tough one.
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Post by Junior on Oct 7, 2021 19:56:15 GMT -7
Well, I gotta say, I do shoot the Mossberg very well. We went out and shot skeet tonight, and I went 25/25 on my first round. So I had to go again, and went 25/25 the second go around too.
Shooting cheap factory 8 shot loads, with the Carlson "Close Range" choke, which is kind of between the factory improved cylinder and modified.
I almost grabbed the Zastava on the way out the door because the Mossberg is a bit heavy for continued shooting, but decided to grab the auto loader just for a chance to get it broke in a bit more.
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