|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 23, 2021 14:59:16 GMT -7
Anyone tried loading 22 RF ? I recently found an outlet for primed 22 RF brass at about $20.00 per 1000. I wanted to test a theory. Looking into it I find that loading precision 22 RF is quite a thing. Being as I am I didn't want to find a way to pay even higher prices for 22 rf but instead wanted to try to get them down closer to what we were used to paying for a long time at about $10.00 for a brick of 500. The idea I had was that maybe a 22 cast bullet designed for a gas check the gas check shank could act as the heel on a 22 rf bullet. Well I got some of the primed brass a few days ago and made some perhaps crude tools to seat and crimp bullets. Turns out that it was not at all a far fetched idea and is working pretty darn good. The single load I have developed so far is using the NEI #2 design at 45gn without the gas check. The powder charge is .9 (point 9) grain of that Alcan powder #101 I picked at the Butte gun show this pas spring. That .9 is max for that powder with that bullet. One thing for sure with loading this small case is 10th gn increases in powder make a way big difference in pressure so you take it real slow with this one. I have not chronographed this load yet but I did shoot it and two other factory rf loads into a lead plate. The factory loads were the really cheap Federal plain lead and a Federal HV hollow point. The HP load had more of a crack than the others maybe due to it being supersonic I dont know as I said I have to chrono the load. At our elevation 6000 ft speed of sound is about 1100 fps. All loads penetrated roughly the same with the HV - HP maybe ever so slightly more. I really need to play with powder burn rate to find how I can kick up the velocity at a safe pressure. I tried a few rounds loaded with the Ranch Dog bullet and they shot well but the 5 gn additional bullet weight require a drop in powder charge to .8gn max. The wide meplate on the RD bullet should make it a dandy for putting the smack down on small game Anyway I am having fun with this as I am moving into uncharted waters which is really the attraction for me, learning. Like I said I have found an entire industry dedicated to loading 22 rf ammo and like any other hobby the sky is the limit for tools and associated equipment. My goal besides having so much fun is to just get the cost of 22 rf ammo down and that the ammo will shoot as well as other factory 22 rf ammo from my gun. Oh BTW my gun is a Stevens model 44. The 44 has some camming power to chamber rounds and as I am finding as for bullet diameter fatter might be better. .225" is shooting pretty good as compared to the .223" of factory ammo. Auto loaders are very likely out because of the increased over all cartridge length. Some clip fed bolt guns may be OK I dont really know as I am just starting out in my learning curve and I have a very long way to go to have a handle on the who, what, and whereabouts of loading conventional cast bullets in the 22 rf. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 23, 2021 19:05:19 GMT -7
After work today I had a chance to mess with the 22 lr loading . For sure this is going to be a learning experience because my formerly perceived ideas have already proven wrong. I had wrongly assumed that factory 22 rf used the fastest smokeless powder available but today I think I have proven that wrong.
So far I have now tried three different powders with assigned burn rates numbers of #3 AA Nitro 100 @ .7gn , #7 Alcan 101 @ .9gn , and #61 IMR - SR 7625 @ 1.6gn on the burn rate chart of a total of entries from fastest #1 to slowest #246.
I had thought the fastest powders would give the highest velocity with bullets in the 40gn range and that slower powders would be beyond optimum burn rate but judging from the lead plate penetration test the slowest powder so far tested IMR-SR 7625 has given the highest velocity. Judging from the apx 50% larger diameter entrance crater and the hefty bulge on the back side of the plate the slow powder load of 1.6gn SR -7625 is so far the velocity winner. The 1.6gn load is max for this powder. I judge max by any noticeable increase in extraction force over factory ammo.
This is getting interesting now because the 1.6gn load of SR-7625 that seems to give increased velocity over the factory ammo tried has the case at about 50% volume so there is plenty of room left for still slower powder.
If I were to take a wag at what burn rate will be the slowest usable before velocity begins to drop even at 100% load density I will say somewhere between AA#5 # 51 on the chart and AA#7 # 93 on the chart. These powders both being fine grain ball powders will be the ones to get the most weight per volume over any flake type powders tried so far.
Well its not much but its a start and I do have a much better idea of what I am working with now than two days ago which was a big zero with a question mark. In the end I should have several purpose built loads for target and hunting. Not having that ability is what has kept me from the 22 lr but now learning that I can changes the whole game.
|
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Sept 23, 2021 20:09:02 GMT -7
sorry, i don't know about the rimfires. i stopped buying them (500 a brick) when they got over $20. i have 1500-2000 rounds but i don't use them like i used too. the ranch dog bullet is similar to the ones i've built. i "used" to have a steel block that would be drilled to accept a 22 lr. i could take one 22lr round and put it into the block and file the bullet tip off, basically poor man wfn and it did shoot!!! i would put the smack on grey and fox squirrels, literally. i also used to it take groundhogs and red foxes. i wonder what i did with steel block? its been 25+ years ago, so i don't know where it is. i think i made it when i've read about the steel block in a gun rag.
in my marlin m25, i have to shot 100-150 rounds(after i clean it) before it becomes accurate. right after i clean it, it will go 2 1/2 +" at 50 yards and after i shoot it, 3/4 to 1 1/2" at 50 yards. i used to use cci mini mags(i forget if it was 32gr hp or 36gr hp) for squirrel and it was 1/2 - 5/8" at 50 yards(7 shots) then i don't clean it until the case is pried out or the 22 cleaning rod is pushed out. i've never slugged it, but i think it oversized.
anyway, good luck!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 24, 2021 8:26:41 GMT -7
I have modified my loading procedure a couple time but am now getting it refined to where its quite consistent and precise. My first step is to flare the case mouth and for this I am using the small tapered punch from a Lee universal case neck flaring tool in conjunction with the anvil base from a Lee hand primer de-cap. With the correct thickness of spacer (washer) under the anvil and the tapered punch on top with the primed case inserted into the fairly close fitting hole in the anvil and that assembly set onto an arbor press gives an absolutely consistent case neck flare that accepts the gas check shank of the bullet.
Powder charging is done on a Lyman powder drop as it has the better fine tune adjustment over the RCBS that I normally use. For bullet seating I was using the Lee decap anvil and a close fitting bullet sizing top punch for the RCBS lube sizer and set on the arbor press. That system was not getting a good bullet to case alignment so there was the added procedure of then running the crooked cartridge into a Lee .225" push through bullet sizer die with a close fitting punch inserted at the top and using a tack hammer to tap the now straight cartridge out of the die. This worked pretty good but was inconsistent in the amount of tapping required to push the finished cartridge out of the die which resulted in different diameter meplate on each cartridge. These cartridges so loaded shoot good but the inconsistency just bugs me so I kept trying to figure a better way which I think I have.
The better way is that now with the charged case and the bullet started with thumb pressure the cartridge is inverted and using a top punch the fits the case rim is pressed into the RCBS lube sizer press with a .225" sizer die in the press. In this way the depth adjuster can be set to precisely seat the bullet to an exact repeatable depth resulting in a consistent meplate. This revised seating system also has the cartridge in a perfect alignment between bullet and case so there is no need for the Lee push through sizer die used in the other system as this new way seats and aligns the bullet in one step.
So my learning here may be in baby steps but it is steady and I am reminded of the race between the tortoise and the hare where slow and steady is the winner.
|
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Sept 24, 2021 8:40:45 GMT -7
Very interesting Brother Dan ! This may well be another chapter in your book.
I have read articles about pulling the factory slug and swapping it for a better cast or jacketed bullet.
But my ambition with .22 RF is way down on the scale of "dispatch wounded corn crunchers, pigs and crows" which is always under the 10 foot zone for our feathered pest and real personal for the table fare.
But keep at it as you will surely master this new road.
|
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Sept 24, 2021 8:58:32 GMT -7
Hello my friend! I was wondering which weapon platform you were using to test and develop the 22RF you are working on now and I was also wondering if this is something you might be willing to offer as loaded ammo for purchase? I would really like to have some of the heaviest cast loads you develop and minute of squirrel or bunny head will be more than perfect for my needs. I’m also curios how these rounds might perform in something like a Ruger single six or a Ruger Mark one target, only 22 handguns I own right now but they are both handy and plenty accurate to a little survival handgun. Have you ever done this same experiment on 22 mag ammo? This is all very interesting to me as I’m ashamed to say I didn’t know you could even handload 22 RF ammo. Keep up the interesting work my friend!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 24, 2021 15:35:04 GMT -7
Today we made more progress on this quest so for this my fourth installment I will use the Bible format and give you numbers. I will list the powders so far tried in this order, first the assigned burn rate number, then the powder charge weight, then the powder name #3 -- .7gn -- AA Nitro 100 #61 -- 1.6gn -- IMR-SR-7625 #93 -- 2.6gn -- AA#7 #111 -- 3.2gn -- H-110 #108 -- 3.2gn -- H- Lil-gun Of those powders I have used so far have cronographed two the IMR-SR-7625 at 1225 fps average, and Lil-Gun at 1257 fps average. These both with the NEI bullet powder coated at 46gn. I have for comparison also chronographed the two factory loads I have on hand the Aguila with 40gn bullet at 1086 fps and the Federal HV hollow point with 31gn bullet at 1393 fps. Of the three loads I fired 5 shots each at 50 yards from rest ( tire pile) and got these numbers, BS -- 1.732 for 5 shots Federal -- 2.515 for 5 shots Aguila -- 2.027 for 5 shots Since my ammo had an obvious flyer I also measured the tightest 4 shots of all three an got, BS -- 1.014 Federal -- 2.306 Aguila -- 1.667 So from that even with the flyer my hand loads beat out the others on both counts for accuracy. Now to look at other important numbers those of cost. Calculating powder cost at $40.00 per pound and lead cost at $1.00 per pound with the cost of the primed brass at $40.00 per 2000 and using the 46gn weight of the NEI bullet and the 3.2gn weight of the powder charge I get a total cost of $13.07 per 500 rounds, a brick. I will get Tina to post a picture of the target because for several reasons it is interesting. One reason is the size of the holes the fairly wide flat nose bullets are making. Another interesting feature in the picture is I tried to get the lead test plate in it and if you look closely just above and right of the center BS target is an expanded bullet recovered from the lead plate when a second shot was close enough to another to dislodge the first without damaging it. Rob I will try to answer your questions in a follow up as at the moment my mind is completely cluttered with these numbers so I have to erase that chalk board before I can concentrate on another line of thought, please forgive me !  |
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Sept 24, 2021 17:09:42 GMT -7
You never need to apologize to me for anything my friend! Very interesting information!!👍
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 25, 2021 9:40:00 GMT -7
Our Stevens model 44 is the only 22 rf we own but it is a good platform for doing this testing. The weak link in the system is that there is a small area at the extractor cut in the barrel that is unsupported so at the hint of higher than normal pressure you begin to see a bulge at that point. At the slightest hint of a bulge there I consider absolute max for pressure of that load.
As for offering these for sale I am a long ways from that point but it is a possibility depending on the availability of the primed brass at a cost effective price.
I think for the most part these will be out for autoloaders because of the increased over all cartridge length with all but the lightest bullet I have tried the Lyman # 225107 at 37gn powder coated.
So far I have tried 3 different bullets and 5 different powders. The three bullets are starting with the heaviest the Ranch Dog at 50.4gn the NEI #2 at 46gn and the Lyman #225107 at 37.2gn.
What I have so far learned about powder is that # 108 on the burn rate chart Hodgdons Lil-Gun is very close to optimum for the two heavier bullet weights. This because with a max load for each load density going by visual inspection is in the mid to high 90% range. This is good because as in any cartridge loading high load densities usually give more uniform ignition which leads to improved accuracy. I say usually because I did run into an exception with this that being with the use of H-110 powder. H-110 is in the right burn rate range at # 111 on the chart and Lil-Gun at #108 so both very close in burn rate. The problem there is a quirk with H-110 that it need to be at or above about 80% of max pressure for uniform burn. Max pressure for magnum handguns is around 40,000 psi and H-110 is a top performer for that purpose but when loaded in 22 rf at maybe 15,000 psi it is impossible to get uniform ignition with H-110.
Also I said the Lil-Gun seems about optimum with the two heavier bullets tried but judging from the smoked up cases with the 225107 it would seem that when going to that light a bullet that a slighter faster powder might be closer to optimum for that lighter 37gn bullet. Going slighter faster than Lil-Gun would put us somewhere around Alliant ( formerly Hercules) 2400. Yup good old 2400 the original hornet powder.
Using the Lil-Gun powder as a standard what I found and what you would expect is with more bullet you use less powder and with less bullet more powder. The max powder charge for the three bullets are ,
225107 @ 37gn @ 3.6gn
NEI @ 46gn @ 3.2gn
Ranch Dog @ 50.4gn @ 3gn
What I think I will find is that bullet length will be critical for in flight stability and the RD bullet is likely approaching the limit at least for my rifle with assuming a 1/16" twist. Other traditional designs such as the 225415 Lyman at about 55gn may be too long but I do hope to try some. The fairly new 22 cal design from Lee Precision is also about 55gn but a wee bit more compact in length and it does shoot good in my 22 hornet also with a 1/16" twist. The thing there is the 22 lr cant shoot it near as fast as the hornet and stability from a certain rifling twist can be increased marginally by increasing velocity so I guess we shall see. All good clean fun though !
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 26, 2021 16:31:58 GMT -7
I just want to add a couple things to this then I have to put it to bed for awhile because I am getting swamped with orders and I also have much to do to get ready for hunting season. This year I hope to camp in a bit more comfort than what I am used to hope being a key word dependent on how much I can get done to bring my plans to fruition.
Ok back to the 22 rf. I didn't mention lube so I wanted to do that. First I was using conventionally lubed bullets but that creates a problem. The problem is in practical use everyone wants to throw some 22 ammo in their pocked and go shooting. Conventional lube being somewhat tacky will pick up all manner of dirt and grit that can be damaging to the barrel. For the second try I loaded the bullets un-lubed then holding the case rim between my fingers dipped the bullet into melted bee's wax in a small tuna can. That yielded a product close to factory 22 ammo but the bee's wax is still soft enough that it too picks up grit. I think factory 22 rf bullets are coated with carnauba or Japan wax which is very hard so will not pick up grit when carried in a pocket.
So on the third try to cure the problem and because I like to carry 22 ammo in my pocket I powder coated the bullets and that worked out quite well.
Another point I failed to mention was that when I pulled the bullets from the factory ammo to weigh the bullets I checked the powder level and found both to be at about 50% density. That may be one reason for inconsistency in cheap 22 ammo. It would be interesting to pull a bullet from some hi end 22 target ammo to see at about what density they are loaded to.
Oh yes and another development that seemed to reinforce what I said about bullet length and the Ranch Dog bullet being about all the bullet I could get in a 22 rf case to shoot well. The issue was that the 3gn charge of Lil-Gun that I was using was shooting very well indeed but I felt that it might be too much on the warm side so dropped the charge to 2.9gn. With that reduction groups opened up which didn't surprise me but what did surprise me was that the bullet holes in the target paper seemed to show some bullet tipping. If that is so the next bullet I wanted to try the Lee 55gn being substantially longer than the Ranch Dog will be a waste of time and will likely just tumble. That is of course directed at my barrel with its ? twist. I understand people are building fast twist 22's and shooting long heavy VLD type bullets in long range competition, long for 22's anyway.
Hope yall enjoyed this so far I did. I am not done yet either as evidenced by the fact that I just purchased another 2000 primed cases.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Sept 27, 2021 1:16:43 GMT -7
I really don't see the hassle worth the reward, since 22 ammo can still be had for under 20 bucks a brick if you watch for deals. You guys can buy online and have it shipped to your door, so the cost would be even less.
And factory ammo that will shot in the .5" range out of my 22 rifle is good enough for me.
I don't even like loading 223 though. I don't like hassle.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 27, 2021 8:48:39 GMT -7
For me and I suspect others there is more purpose to loading ammo than to just produce ammo. You have to love it and maybe being old helps.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Sept 27, 2021 10:50:00 GMT -7
I enjoy reloading, just not the small stuff.
On a side note, and getting off topic here, I finally broke down and bought a scope for my 22. As much as I hate to admit it, my eyes are starting to get worse, and I was having trouble with the irons on my Zastava, which are not really of the best design with a V notch rear sight and bead front. I bought a vortex diamondback 2-7x35 rimfire scope for the rifle and it fits the bill nicely. Makes getting those headshots on grouse so much easier.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Sept 27, 2021 10:50:53 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Sept 27, 2021 11:16:28 GMT -7
I enjoy reloading, just not the small stuff. On a side note, and getting off topic here, I finally broke down and bought a scope for my 22. As much as I hate to admit it, my eyes are starting to get worse, and I was having trouble with the irons on my Zastava, which are not really of the best design with a V notch rear sight and bead front. I bought a vortex diamondback 2-7x35 rimfire scope for the rifle and it fits the bill nicely. Makes getting those headshots on grouse so much easier. on a side note, my eyes were messed up for 2 or 3 years until i went to the eye doctor. i am told, you should go see the eye dr when you turn 40yo. because thats about the point your in life that says the eyes ain't what they used to be. i should have gone to him years ago, instead of being stubborn old fart.  |
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Sept 27, 2021 11:55:21 GMT -7
dan,
was you stevens model 44 have a old scope on it or do you just do open sights?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 27, 2021 12:31:55 GMT -7
The Stevens 44 has an original Stevens tang mounted peep sight and that is the only sight on it right now. The rear barrel sight is missing so I am looking for one. This rifle while I have it will not have a scope sight because it is not drilled and tapped and I just cant bring myself to do that.
|
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Sept 27, 2021 18:50:17 GMT -7
i thought so. i am envious of you and your shooting great groups. |
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Sept 27, 2021 19:05:46 GMT -7
So far the winning load has been with the NEI #2 bullet at 46gm and 3.2gn Lil-Gun.
Two weird things that happened when I fired the factory ammo for group. # 1 is that the Aguila ammo has a foul odor that made me think there might be something wrong with it. #2 I dumped the factory powder charges because I had no idea of their burn rate and I was shooting heavier bullets than was loaded in them.
I did however use the primed cases. For whatever reason the Federal gave a long hang fire with my load, weird huh !
|
|
