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Post by grasshopper on Sept 1, 2021 6:04:44 GMT -7
Good morning all! I had an interesting conversation when I was in my local gun shop yesterday. I’m not sure how we got on the subject but I had a guy tell me there’s no way a Mauser type action could ever be as accurate as a push feed action like on the Remington 700. I thought this was a very uninformed statement. Whether or not a rifle is accurate(and interesting) depends on many things I was always told and what type of action it had was probably near the bottom as far as importance goes.
So what do you guys think? I’m pretty sure I have a good idea but I’m really curious to see what you think and what are some of the most important factors that go into a rifle being accurate or not.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 1, 2021 7:22:46 GMT -7
You are correct. The difference between controlled feed and push feed by my thinking has nothing at all to do with accuracy. I suspect that the person stating otherwise does not really understand. Both types use the same breaching system with dual opposed locking lugs. There is little behind that breach face other than trigger and bedding that affects accuracy as long as the breach face is square to the bore but that too applies to both types.
One thing to consider that I have always felt can be a detriment to accuracy with a push feed action is the off center ejection detent. This system has the tendency to push out of alignment with the bore a cartridge that is dimensionally smaller than the chamber as when using factory ammo. It is for this reason plus the fact that it makes it easier to recover brass as it will only extract not eject that In my push feed Remington type actions I remove the ejection detent and spring . In this way the fully retracted bolt pulls the empty case from the chamber and hold it at the ejection port to be plucked out with fingers and dropped into a pocket. In a speed situation the rifle can be tipped toward the ejection port side while retracting the bolt and the momentum and gravity will allow the empty to drop out.
The controlled round feed has no such off center pressure against the case head of a chambered round with the extractor and ejector not in solid contact the the case head until extraction and ejection is activated.
Other than that potential accuracy is dependent on quality of components and craftsmanship in the construction of the rifle quality of ammo being a separate ussie..
Now there are other considerations when deciding on what type of action to use such as dependability of feeding for a repeating rifle and dependability of extraction. In this regard I will always choose the coned breach of the Springfield/Mauser type action and strong extraction over the square breach weak extraction of many push feed actions but this has absolutely nothing to do with potential for accuracy and is only a preference fueled by past experience of desiring a dependable fast second shot.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 1, 2021 11:38:57 GMT -7
Thank you for your reply sir, I couldn’t agree more. I believe the guy in the shop was just another case of a wanna be sniper or some such. He’s probably watched a few movies or something and now he thinks he knows what it takes to make that 1,000 yard shot. Most people have absolutely no idea what it takes and what is involved to call and make a shot at that distance. I found the fact you remove the ejector from rem 700 type bolts interesting because I’ve always wondered if it being off center and in contact with the base of a cartridge had any effect on accuracy.
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Post by missionary on Sept 1, 2021 12:33:34 GMT -7
I would think if controlled feed was an issue it would have died out at least 70 years ago when the 700 was being accepted as a viable competitor.
Rifle matches are still won by lowly controlled feed rifles when other types are well used also.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 1, 2021 12:34:07 GMT -7
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 1, 2021 14:57:27 GMT -7
I agree Pastor Mike! If it was such an issue I would think they would of gone the way of the Doo Doo a long time ago! Especially with all the interest in accuracy and long range shooting day in the last 10-15 years.
Todd, sure glad I could make you laugh out loud for a minute anyway! Sorry about losing the coffee though!🤣 hopefully it was worth it! One of my pet peeves is all these “gun store commandos” they all have the latest greatest kit, they had 5K or more invested in their latest AR variant and the latest optics and clothing but they haven’t spent $100 bucks worth of ammo learning how to run said AR machine! Ugh! My head is starting to hurt!😩
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 1, 2021 18:11:00 GMT -7
The major factor in the popularity of the Rem 700 action is production cost. The Rem 700 receiver is a cylinder that requires far less machining. The Mauser receiver is milled from a billet of solid steel so requires more machining to complete. That is the reason newly manufactured Mauser actions are expensive although CNC machining has narrowed the gap. That fact made the Remington cheaper to produce so sticker price WAS more attractive. When the Marine's scrapped the model 70 (Mauser action) and adopted the Rem 700 that was a boon for the Rem on the civilian market. Also when Rem tricked out the 700 to the 40X the accuracy crowd took notice of the fact the a model 700 could also be tricked out for a lower cost 40X. Those things working together at the right time put the 700 at the top of the heap but I don't think they have held that position for some time now. There are other options in factory accuracy rifles that take a back seat to none in accuracy potential.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 1, 2021 19:09:45 GMT -7
I agree with your assessment of some of the reasons the 700 action became so popular and widespread in a fairly short period of time. As you said they have much more competition these days and I’m not sure there are even the front runner in shooting platforms any longer.
It never bothered me that most folks seemed to prefer the 700 action, for some reason I’ve most always been lucky and usually go against what seems to be the popular trend, years ago it was a boon to me to go to different shows or shops even and be able to find FN supreme actions and complete rifles for next to nothing compared to the other actions. One of the most accurate rifles I ever owned and somehow let slip away was a JC Higgins rifle with a FN action in 7x57, it was such a light and handy little rifle and it shot like a dream. Writing about it now brings back some great memories but again sure makes me wonder how I ever let it slip away.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 1, 2021 19:57:12 GMT -7
If there is an action that has been so overlooked for accuracy but to my mind has greater potential at least in factory form it has to be the Savage action with the barrel nut system. It is also the most copied today with many of the major players using it.
The Savage system works opposite all others in that the barrel is not screwed tightly against an internal shoulder inside the receiver ring as are all other but instead is pulled away from the receiver in tightening. This reverse torque tends to self align with use. The other system where the barrel shank is torqued against the inner shoulder in the receiver ring can not do the same. If that type is not trued in the threading. barrel face, and internal shoulder face as well as the receiver ring and barrel shoulder the barrel will never be in line with the receiver and bold face. The savage changeable pivoting bolt head also has some small amount of movement that also works to align itself with the chamber when a round is fired and the case head is thrust against the bolt face. The cheap old Savage that everyone poo-pooed is now the most copied action of all time in that most rifles made even by Remington now use the Savage barrel nut system. Build it right and it will shoot as proven by the many Savage F-class rifles being used in long range competition. The Savage F-class right bolt left port action with accu-triger is now what the 40-X was.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 3, 2021 10:31:08 GMT -7
i always forget about savage. i've owned many 110's, 116 and 112 and they all were accurate. i got rid of my last savage, m112 in 223, last month or two. it had a accu-trigger, which i cannot use and the black "plastic" stock. my dad and my oldest son were shooting it a couple of years ago, but i decided to sell it. my son has a 243 in savage axis and it is accurate too. dad had a 110 in '06 years ago and it was accurate. grasshopper, i had enuff of m16a2 (or the semi ar-15) to last me four lifetimes(i was in the US Army). me and a sergeant used to do headshots at 300 meters with aperture sights in the prone and kneeling unsupported position. 400 meters with a headshot makes it challenging, well my eyes ain't what they used to be  !!! now everybody has a ar15 with a scope and i doubt that they can hit a 1/2 man target at 100 meters let alone a headshot at 300 meters. i bet that 90% of guys using a ar15 bought it just because they were afraid the ar15 would be banned. now it just sits there in the closet with a pallet load of ammo. oh, i forgot, they got bump stock too. spoiler alert...on auto(or bump stock) anything over 3 shots is going into the air not the target. boy am i the party pooper!!!!! although i'll take a m60e3 in 7.62x51 any day and twicet on sunday, instead of m240 in 5.56x45. i'll just be here with my old rifles and complaining that the '06 is too much gun(rofl) , the 7x57 is better!!!! |
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 3, 2021 11:56:15 GMT -7
Hey Todd! Well I gotta say and I promise I’m not sayin this to brag at all but I have more “trigger time” on M16A1, M16A2 and M4 out of all the people I know, I’m retired from the Army and spent most of my time as a special operations medical NCO, being the medic did have some advantages as no range could be run unless there was a medic on site. That meant I had to stay there from start to finish so many times in between guys coming to qualify I would get all the time I wanted to shoot, plus the ammo was free!
When you were talking about taking those head shots at 300 meters it brought back a memory a hadn’t thought about in a long time. I was stationed at Hunter Army Airfield at the time in the first Ranger battalion 1/75. We went on a training mission to Ft Bragg and jumped in to Holland drop zone. My platoon sergeant at the time broke his ankle on the jump and had a compound fracture and blood was actually leaking out of his jungle boot! We road marched 17 miles to the M16 qualification range and he shot expert all the while never letting me touch his ankle or take the first aspirin. When he was done with his qualification he went to one of the lanes not being used and laid in the prone, used my aid bag for a rest and started to knock down pop up targets out to 800 meters! I’m not kidding either. Some may say, a 5.56 at 800 meters with open sights? No way! I’m telling you I promise it’s the truth! He was a hard man and never saw that line between hard and stupid!! He went on to join Delta Force and then retired after working many years on the elite security team of the Department of Energy!!
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 3, 2021 19:17:03 GMT -7
i believe it. if i can(unsupportive) shoot at a target that is 600 meters away and hit it, then everybody can. all it takes is confidence in your weapon. the m203 was my confidence builder. i could lob a a 40mm HE and hit a 2'x2' target at 400 meters every time. i don't know why, but i could. the m60 was a joy to shoot, but a female dog to clean. and yes, i hate cleaning guns!!!!!!! thats why i use cast boolits!!!!!!!
i was a 12 boo with a 51B(carpentry and masonry specialist) on the side. i ended up in 458th engineer battalion hhc (reserve) .
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 3, 2021 20:00:45 GMT -7
Todd, I enjoyed reading you post about the M203, I believe you could hit a 2x2’ target! I’ve seen guys hit a car window at several hundred meters every time they tried! I also started out with the M60 also but the Ranger Regiment transferred to the M240 not too many years after I was in, it’s a heavy piece of kit no doubt but man! That thing can run all day without a malfunction provided it’s fed correctly and kept lubed.
The only thing more awkward than carrying it say on a road March would be the 90mm recoilless rifle aka the “stovepipe”! It’s gone now as well replaced by the Carl Gustof. I’m not sure if I remember correctly but was a 12B a cannon cocker or a combat engineer? Almost all the MOSs have changed now. I started as a 91A then a 91B and finally a 68W all the same basically except for the identifiers behind it and even thst depends on the job you work, like I had a P,V,F,H,E all different specialties but you only use one at a time anyway, looks good on paper and for promotion but nowadays that and about $10 bucks would get me a cup of Joe at Starbucks if I knew how to order it!!
Keep posting those stories about when you were in brother! I really enjoy hearing them! Maybe Pastor Mike and some of the other guys that chose to serve or were given a greetings from Uncle Sam letter will share there stories as well! I think everyone would agree they are fun to hear!!
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 4, 2021 10:17:43 GMT -7
12B is a combat engineer. i luved to blow stuff up!!! det cord and the appropriate amount times two(or 3 or 4... ) of c4 and a m57 with a deternator and you're good to go. i hated finding mines in the field. i did help the 12C(bridge builders) but i never was. we would go ahead of infantry to take out obstacles(minefield, bunkers, razor wire and other good stuff) and clear the way in or we can do a defensive position. 1997 was my last year and the unit had the m60 while it trying to go to the m240. i said at the time,would you rather go and take out a ma deuce or an m60 or a m240? most, if not all, guys would say the m240. why? i would ask. cause the ma deuce and m60 sounded mean and it was about to chew you up!!!! like i said, i luv the m60, but she is a female dog to clean. it was sure fun to go out with the pig and take 9 round bursts at 1200 meters. boy, that was fun!!! i wonder if they still do that with m240? i never got chance to try. we didn't have any carl gustavs to carry, just the law and the at4. i remember that the law was like candy. everybody got one or two or three!!!!!! they were about as bad as the claymore. although, i liked claymores, i carried 3 or 4 of them over my shoulders. the one thing i miss has to be the army coffee!!!!! i'm not talking about the crap that the mre does, but the mess' brewed coffee. it came a aluminum can, either 3 or 5 lbs, and it said coffee. i tried to find it on the commercial markets, but it was a no go. if the enemy ever got hold of that recipe and poisoned it, we would be done!!! in my unit i got from the mess a 3.5 gallon coffee percolator and i don't know how many pounds of coffee in our platoon area. we take it everywhere we go and not have to bother the mess sergeants. i'd get 3 or 5 lbs of coffee everyday when we were in the field. the old man(CO) would come to us for a cup or two of joe. didn't matter the time or the weather, you always had a cup of hot coffee to cheer you up. yes, i was the unit scrounger, give me three of there and i get one of those. i was the Radar of MASH!!! |
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 4, 2021 11:22:40 GMT -7
Being the scrounger is a God given talent.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 4, 2021 11:52:47 GMT -7
Ha! Like Dan said it’s a gift and there’s nothing wrong with it at all, I always made it a point to find out who the guys like you were when I got to a new unit. We had claymores and I know it sounds silly now but I remember getting to blow my first live claymore in the field when we were doing ambushes. When you got to blow one you got to keep the bag it came in, I used mine as a shaving kit bag the whole time I was in and still have and use it to this day thirty something years later! It was just kind of a status symbol you had been in the unit for a while and not a “cherry”🤣
Speaking of claymores, our 1SG would get really mad at us when it was cold and we would pick out a quarter size piece of C4 from inside the mine to use like a heart tab to get water hot to make coffee or to shave(how dumb is that? Shaving when the water in your canteen is frozen?) anyway I remember this new guy that saw some of us doing it, so he thought he would too. Only thing about C4 is you either let it burn out or smother with dirt or… anything but what this guy did. When he was done and wanted to put it out he just took his jungle boot, with foot inside and stomped on it to put it out. Well next thing you know there’s a bam! And the guy ended up losing one big toe and the toe next to it! So, lesson is don’t stomp on C4! Ever!!🤣
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 4, 2021 13:07:47 GMT -7
we used lit c4 to heat up our mre's, now a days they use flameless heaters. but i guess i was in slim minority of eating it cold.
i was lucky in not to shave in the field. the CO didn't care if you were shaved, he cared if you do your job. but back at base, you'd better shave and your crew cut better be high and tight.
i remember one time in basic training when we were in field for several days, the drill sergeants told everybody to shave and then form up. we did shave and we form up. then there was pop-hiss that we all knew was CS gas. then the platoon (3 platoons) donned our gas masks while the other 2 platoons broke and ran. when the guys that had broke and ran were round up, they were MOP4 and smoked till the last guy puked. we glad that we stayed and put the gas masks on, because we didn't "learn the lesson" as the other 2 platoon did!!!
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 4, 2021 15:53:45 GMT -7
Oh my!! CS is no fun no matter when you deal with it, much less right after shaving! Like I said before my first duty station was at Hunter Army Airfield with the first Ranger battalion 1/75. It always drove us crazy having inspections, like first formation Monday morning was for PT. We were required to have a fresh high and tight and be freshly shaved. My platoon sergeant was so bad he would bring a cotton ball and if he thought a guys beard was too long or he shaved the night before he would take the cotton ball and rub it on the guys face and if it pulled any fibers out he was smoked until like you said he about puked.
Ah! The good ole days!🤣 I suppose that’s why they train 18 and 19 year olds to jump outta planes and charge machine gun nests after running 100 yards with no cover! An older guy with wouldn’t do it or he would at least been smart enough to call for indirect fire! Seems like there was a commercial back then showing troops jumping and on the drop zone a guy handed the 1SG a cup of coffee saying “morning first sergeant!” Then a voice would say “In the Army we do more before 9 than most people do all day” we always changed it just a little saying “In the Army we do more stupid $&@$ than most people do all day!”
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 7, 2021 7:33:09 GMT -7
i almost got to try to get my wings, but i decided i was sane enuff to NOT jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane. |
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 7, 2021 10:02:33 GMT -7
Ha! Your last sentence is incorrect my friend, well as far as the Air Force goes anyhow, they don’t have any perfectly good planes!🤣
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Post by missionary on Sept 7, 2021 10:25:56 GMT -7
My last duty station was at Sullivan Barracks outside Manheim, Germany. That was home for the 8th (behind the 8 ball) Infantry(ex-Airborne). I was with 5/68 Armor attached to some leg unit. We got to sing all the Airborne phrases during PT. Somewhere along one trail I started with "Chairborne Tanker". CO took offense as he had an Airborne tab. He came a huffing along side of me and said, "Troop you do not like like our Airborns songs?" I replied.. "no Sir" He told me to come see him after the run.
Later I came to attention before him and said Specialist Fester reporting Sir. He said Fester what is your problem with our Airborne songs? I said, Sir I am Regular Army. I am a trained Armor Crewman. I have been through Tank Commander school. I have viewed more than once the Army tests to airdrop the lightest tank our Army has every procured and every time we tank crewman get a good laugh about the end results which I am sure you have also seen Sir. That main gun barrel twisted like a pretzel is still a fond memory. So Sir when a US Army battle tank can be successfully air dropped from any height I will sing your songs and volunteer to shuffle out the door to man my armored vehicle.
My CO looked at me a short moment and said.... Get out of my sight Troop !..
Never heard another word about the songs. General Patton always told his tankers to be bold and attack.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 7, 2021 16:33:17 GMT -7
Great story pastor Mike! I believe the eighth had a shoulder patch in the form of an eight with an arrow running up thru it? It’s been a long time but I think that’s correct. Believe it or not the very first airplane I ever flew in I jumped out of about an hour later! True story, I have taken off on many more planes than I’ve ever landed in. When I was at Ft Bragg(soon to be changed to who knows what) in the 82nd Airborne we had an armor unit believe it or not. It was the 3/73 Armor and they had the Sheridan tanks. I’m not sure if the Army ever experimented with dropping those but they did do quite a few LAPSE exercises. I’ve forgotten what the acronym stands for but if you have access to YouTube I’m sure there are videos showing how it was supposed to work anyway. I got to go observe several of them and they were all extremely violent. Imagine a C130 just barely touching the tarmac with the ramp down and wind just starting to catch several huge parachutes that pull the tank off the rollers it’s sitting on inside the bird! Once those chutes get filled with enough air it pretty much just jerks tons of Steel out of the plane. You can really tell the plane is a lot lighter because what was level flying now looks like he’s almost vertical after all that weight is gone! I also remember one or two times I had to stand in front of one of my commanders. I found like you, that if you just gave a half way plausible answer they usually just chuckled a little and told you to get out of their AO! Better than an Article 15 any day!😁
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 8, 2021 17:01:57 GMT -7
jump wings or wings, they all go splat!!! |
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