The 25-20 load that Col. Whelan would find interesting
Jun 12, 2021 13:39:55 GMT -7
todddoyka and shootist---Gary like this
Post by Bullshop on Jun 12, 2021 13:39:55 GMT -7
Some of you will remember that a short time back I found some old Alcan powder at a gun show priced at $5.00 per can. Having some experience with Alcan powders and having developed an appreciation for them I bought all the vendor had. There were three different Alcan powders most of which was AL-101 which I am about to reveal my discovery of an excellent load with in a Winchester model 92 in 25-20.
I have been messing with the #101 powder because that is what I got the most of in that purchase so I can develop loads and still have a good supply to load from. I first found it to be a very good choice in the 45 acp at 4 gn charges with a 265gn bullet from a Freedom Arms mold for a truncated nose design with gas check shank but in the 45 acp the GC is not needed. That load makes my sloppy old 1911-A1 shoot like a Colt Gold Cup.
Today I was messing with the 1892 I got from a member here and the Alcan 101 powder and some odds and ends of bullet orders that I either had to throw back into the pot or get shot up. Since Saturday the seventh day is my God given day off I decided the latter was a more desirable choice so I began to do so.
First up was some small amount of our 60gn custom flat nose plain base. Starting at 3 gn and working up in .2gn increments at 4 gn they were shooting darn good, good enough in fact that I stepped out with about a dozen so loaded rounds and eliminated several gophers from the pasture around the reapers roost. That was great to find a good shooting load for the 60gn PB bullet which to be honest has so far not given acceptable results otherwise. That right there should have made a good day of it but I was still edged on by the several small lots of Lyman # 257420 I had on hand. I dont like to mix lots in orders so anything shy of 100 is for me to use up and there were several.
First thing I did was to try the 257420 without a gas check. That was OK but not as good as the 60gn PB. It also showed that the 4gn charge was nearing max with the slightly heavier bullet at about 70gn. The small pistol primers being used also were showing that a 10gn increase in bullet weight was getting me near a max load. I assumed that the slightly lower chamber pressure with the slightly lighter bullet that shot good at a 4gn charge was going to be about the limit for a bullet without a gas check
Next of course I had to try the 257420 with a gas check but in an attempt to lower chamber pressure slightly I seated the bullet with the lead drive band flush with the case mouth where as before I was seating the full band out in front of the case mouth where it would engage the rifling on chambering. That seamed to work well for its purpose and staying with the 4gn charge with still a heavier bullet made so by the addition of the gas check showed no increase in or abnormal chamber pressure signs.
Now the kicker is that this load of 4gn AL-101 and the Lyman # 257420 with gas check sparked by the CCI small pistol primer is looking like it will be the most accurate load so far in this old Winchester rifle. When I checked on the first three shots from 50 yards with this load my heart must have skipped a beat when I got close enough to see all three touching. Follow up groups are maybe not one hole like the first but all easily stay on the area of a gophers head which aint very big.
A small game gun that can be counted on to hit the eyeball of any small game target at 50 yards is sitting right well with me and I think Col. Whelan would find that acceptably interesting too.
It is really hard to precisely peg the burn rate of any of the Alcan powders because they have been out of regular use for quite some time and as such they are not included in any current powder burn rate charts. I would put the burn rate somewhere close to Hercules/Alliant Red Dot but that is difficult because some charts list Red Dot as faster than Bullseye and some charts list it as slower . In my personal experience and application I have always considered Bullseye to be substantially faster burning than Red Dot and the Alcan certainly not faster than Red Dot but by the same token not a heck of a lot slower either.
There is still some old shot shell load data available off the net that gives identical loads using both Red Dot and Alcan 101 giving about identical performance so there cant be a whole heck of a lot of difference between the two. I am pointing this out to myself as much as to anyone else because when my small supply of Alcan 101 runs out I will be on the hunt for its replacement for the 25-20 and in that regard it looks like Red Dot will be a strong contender.
One disappointment that I think I may discover is that the Red Dot may not burn as clean as the Alcan 101 powder in the same application. I have found this to be true of other comparisons of burn rate matches of each brand of powder. Simply put the Alcan powders were very clean burning powders when used at near there optimum chamber pressures for consistent burn. Just why they were ever discontinued I cant for the life of me figure because as stated I have always found them to deliver consistent results and clean burning. There must have been good reason why the first 44 mag ammo produced by Remington used Alcan #8 powder in spite of the fact the Elmer Keith was telling them to use Hercules 2400. Just chalk it up to another of the unexplainable shooting industry mysteries.
You can bet though that when I see any Alcan powders at gun shows I will be very interested.
I have been messing with the #101 powder because that is what I got the most of in that purchase so I can develop loads and still have a good supply to load from. I first found it to be a very good choice in the 45 acp at 4 gn charges with a 265gn bullet from a Freedom Arms mold for a truncated nose design with gas check shank but in the 45 acp the GC is not needed. That load makes my sloppy old 1911-A1 shoot like a Colt Gold Cup.
Today I was messing with the 1892 I got from a member here and the Alcan 101 powder and some odds and ends of bullet orders that I either had to throw back into the pot or get shot up. Since Saturday the seventh day is my God given day off I decided the latter was a more desirable choice so I began to do so.
First up was some small amount of our 60gn custom flat nose plain base. Starting at 3 gn and working up in .2gn increments at 4 gn they were shooting darn good, good enough in fact that I stepped out with about a dozen so loaded rounds and eliminated several gophers from the pasture around the reapers roost. That was great to find a good shooting load for the 60gn PB bullet which to be honest has so far not given acceptable results otherwise. That right there should have made a good day of it but I was still edged on by the several small lots of Lyman # 257420 I had on hand. I dont like to mix lots in orders so anything shy of 100 is for me to use up and there were several.
First thing I did was to try the 257420 without a gas check. That was OK but not as good as the 60gn PB. It also showed that the 4gn charge was nearing max with the slightly heavier bullet at about 70gn. The small pistol primers being used also were showing that a 10gn increase in bullet weight was getting me near a max load. I assumed that the slightly lower chamber pressure with the slightly lighter bullet that shot good at a 4gn charge was going to be about the limit for a bullet without a gas check
Next of course I had to try the 257420 with a gas check but in an attempt to lower chamber pressure slightly I seated the bullet with the lead drive band flush with the case mouth where as before I was seating the full band out in front of the case mouth where it would engage the rifling on chambering. That seamed to work well for its purpose and staying with the 4gn charge with still a heavier bullet made so by the addition of the gas check showed no increase in or abnormal chamber pressure signs.
Now the kicker is that this load of 4gn AL-101 and the Lyman # 257420 with gas check sparked by the CCI small pistol primer is looking like it will be the most accurate load so far in this old Winchester rifle. When I checked on the first three shots from 50 yards with this load my heart must have skipped a beat when I got close enough to see all three touching. Follow up groups are maybe not one hole like the first but all easily stay on the area of a gophers head which aint very big.
A small game gun that can be counted on to hit the eyeball of any small game target at 50 yards is sitting right well with me and I think Col. Whelan would find that acceptably interesting too.
It is really hard to precisely peg the burn rate of any of the Alcan powders because they have been out of regular use for quite some time and as such they are not included in any current powder burn rate charts. I would put the burn rate somewhere close to Hercules/Alliant Red Dot but that is difficult because some charts list Red Dot as faster than Bullseye and some charts list it as slower . In my personal experience and application I have always considered Bullseye to be substantially faster burning than Red Dot and the Alcan certainly not faster than Red Dot but by the same token not a heck of a lot slower either.
There is still some old shot shell load data available off the net that gives identical loads using both Red Dot and Alcan 101 giving about identical performance so there cant be a whole heck of a lot of difference between the two. I am pointing this out to myself as much as to anyone else because when my small supply of Alcan 101 runs out I will be on the hunt for its replacement for the 25-20 and in that regard it looks like Red Dot will be a strong contender.
One disappointment that I think I may discover is that the Red Dot may not burn as clean as the Alcan 101 powder in the same application. I have found this to be true of other comparisons of burn rate matches of each brand of powder. Simply put the Alcan powders were very clean burning powders when used at near there optimum chamber pressures for consistent burn. Just why they were ever discontinued I cant for the life of me figure because as stated I have always found them to deliver consistent results and clean burning. There must have been good reason why the first 44 mag ammo produced by Remington used Alcan #8 powder in spite of the fact the Elmer Keith was telling them to use Hercules 2400. Just chalk it up to another of the unexplainable shooting industry mysteries.
You can bet though that when I see any Alcan powders at gun shows I will be very interested.
