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Post by Bullshop on Apr 19, 2021 12:06:14 GMT -7
Last weekend I was able to visit a gun show the first in a very long time. It was in Butte where the Missus does her bulk shopping. She went shopping which gave me the opportunity to visit the show. This show brought together the perfect storm of events in that there were good deals and I had money and permission from the war department to spend. WOW !!! I found some powder at $10.00 per pound and a milk crate with three loading presses and an never used RCBS uniflow powder measurer at $70.00 for the crate. I didnt need anything in the crate but I can recognize an opportunity when I see one. The powder was Alcan that no one knew what to do with as there is no available load data for it. The cans were in pristine condition so likely well stored and having had developed data in the past for these powders I just could not turn them down at $5.00 per 1/2 pound can. They are AL-8, AL-5, and AL-101 I have already use some of the AL-101 in light 38 special and 44 special loads and I see no problem with its function so the appearance of being well stored is probably correct. Now the highlight of the weekend. I bought a Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 rifle. Not that I needed another but the condition is very good and the price was very reasonable. This rifle though is not just another Trapdoor but is a unique Trapdoor. This rifle appears to have what I believe is an experimental front sight. The rifle is the late 1884 with the spike bayonet. The stock has initials carved into it but I am overlooking those in favor of the over all condition and the unique front sight. I have read a little bit about a designated sharp shooter model and this may very well be one of those. Ove this past weekend we had a birth day girl and decided to have an outing at the lake where I can also shoot long range so you know the lake got my vote. Ken if your reading this you know the spot ! I found a piece of steel plate that is roughly 3.5' x 3.5 ' that we painted black with a contrasting white cross in the middle. This showed up very well through the sights at a lazered 597 yards. After repainting a few times the picture shows the last few shots of the day. The load is with an old Ohaus mold for a 500gn copy of the original arsenal design. The load is 63 grain scale weight of Graffs FFG powder a card wad over the powder and ignited by a Federal #215 mag rifle primer. Anyone familiar with shooting a Trapdoor with original sights will know that in the down position the standard battle sight will hit nearly 2 feet high at 100 yards and zero at about 250 yards. That makes precision shot placement at closer ranges difficult. Once ranges are out to the lowest settings on the sight things are more predictable. The great advantage in the sight on this rifle is that the cross hair is set higher than the standard post front sight which by the way is still in place but being set higher can zero at 100 yards precisely when held in one position and go back to the original battle sight zero when held in another position. This allows precise aiming at all ranges from 100 yards to the longest setting calibrated into the sight. I like it ! It seems to me that for long range shooting the cross hair front sight adds precision to aiming over just the v post standard front sight. This sight is mounter just behind the standard sight. The way it is mounted is that there is a bronze split ring mounted on the barrel that is possibly soldered to the barrel I am not sure and I dont want to mess with it to find out. Over the bronze ring there is a steel ring with a knurled set screw that locks the assembly into place. Unlocked the outside ring is free to swivel left or right of the standing post or align with it. On top of the mounting ring in a figure eight pattern is another smaller ring which houses the cross hair. This is a very robust arraignment not at all flimsy as any military sight must be. This sight is totally new to me as I have never seen it or heard of it specifically mentioned in any historical writings I have encountered on the subject of Trapdoor rifles. It is unique, interesting, and eminently usable as the target shows. |
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 19, 2021 12:17:28 GMT -7
and the rifle Attachments:
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Post by missionary on Apr 19, 2021 13:04:16 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
That was a providentially blessed gunshow ! Powder for $10 a pound !! A crate for $70! Very good swapping items .
Beautiful place to go launch lead slugs ! How is the fishing there ?
I am rather found of Trapdoors also ! Never met one I did not get interested in. We could outfit a light squad. Never have owned a Bayonet rod model either.
Front sight.. That has me wondering. My first observation is that sight has not aged like the barrel? Next I know there were several cross hair sharpshooter sights made for caliber .58 and .50 Muskets. That brass bushing maybe is to fill the barrel diameter difference... I would think the Army would have made a proper fitting sight... My 2c on that
But as far as a long range sight tool... far better than a post that is too fat for fine aiming.
Finger Grip addition.. Again not the same color.
I would guess someone wanted a BPCR for competition and did some upgrades which are nice.
Does look to have good potential to be a fine cast shooter.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 19, 2021 14:06:42 GMT -7
I think maybe the reason for the bronze bushing under the mounting ring is to have a softer than steel for the locking set screw to bite into rather than the barrel steel. If that was not the idea it was a good after thought.
The picture in the second post shows the trap butt that can hold a cleaning kit or two loaded cartridges, handy ! That same picture also shows the target at 600 yards. If you follow the trail to where it goes up and over the top the tiny black dot nearly touching the lower side of the road is the target. That three shot cluster at the bottom of the target is far less than MOA so the rifle will shoot .
I found I had to use a sight setting of 625 yards to be on at 600 yards range. Very possibly because of the slightly reduced powder charge that what the sight are calibrated for. Going to FFFG over the FFG I used may well make the difference.
I remember reading in Spence Wolf's book on the Trapdoor rifles that ammo being submitted for purchase by the ordinance department had to produce between 1270 fps and 1330 fps to be accepted for purchase. That because outside those velocity parameters the trajectory would deviate unacceptable far from the sight settings. I have not chronographed this load but suspect it will be something slightly less than acceptable for contract. Something I need to work on because it is really nice to be able to use the sights as intended. Definitely lots of fun !
Oh yea and the fishing at the lake is very good. Ten pound rainbows and browns are very common . Also some very respectable size Burbot which is by far my favorite eating.
Oh and one more thing, the rifle has been re-blued to a non standard finish color. The sight though is the same color as another 1884 I have that has the original finish. The other 1884 I have is the earlier model with standard slip on and twist mount bayonet .
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 19, 2021 15:26:13 GMT -7
In case someone thinks we are being unsafe shooting at the road where it comes up over a hill, the road dead ends at the bottom of the hill you can see it going over and we can see the dead end from the shooting position. Anyone coming from the location we are shooting from has to go by us so its quite safe. It is a very low traffic area especially in the spring before tourist season begins.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 20, 2021 8:57:18 GMT -7
There is another interesting feature of this rifle in that it has no stacking swivel. All Springfield rifles ( not carbines ) Have a sling swivel at the front of the trigger guard and then two at the front barrel band. The forward most one at the front band is open not closed as the sling swivel. The open one is for stacking. Guns were stacked in teepee stacks connected by this open swivel.
Now I have to ponder the reason why this rifle is complete in every way accept for its stacking swivel. Coincidence ? possibly but just as likely possibly not. If this is a sharpshooters rifle it will have been assigned to a specific person so kept from general population. Lacking the stacking swivel would have kept it from being stacked together with general population rifles. I have to wonder ! The rifles accuracy is certainly capable.
Who knows ?
It really doesn't matter either because its a shooter grade rifle that is unique and fun to shoot and it shoots well so Colonel Whelen would also find it interesting.
I just cant help to have a fondness for historical shooter grade and unique arms that don't loose value from use. They are decorative furnishings in the home but on your day off provide pleasure afield. There certainly is a nostalgia to shooting an original model of the first cartridge rifle ever adopted by the US armed services. Not in the original chambering but in a variant of the first model of non muzzle loading US army rifle.
The history of the development of the arsenal loading of the 45-70-500 is just as fascinating. The long range ballistic improvement of the 45-70 over the 50-70 was no less dramatic than the 30-40 over the 45-70 or the 30-06 over the 30-40.
If anyone like myself enjoys learning about the ballistic advancement of such cartridges try doing a search for the Sandy hook trials and prepare to be amazed.
At one time in my ignorance I thought the accuracy of these rifles was little better than King David's sling or maybe even not as good judging from historical records of each. Reading the sandy hook trials will put that in true perspective when you learn the ranges the Springfield TD and the 45-70-500 load was tested to.
All interesting history that I become part of when on my day off I am out there accurately lobbing chunks of lead to great distances that at one time I thought nearly impossible with the most modern scoped high power rifles of that time.
It still amazes me that the Roland/Pope group of 10 shots into 3/4" at 40 rods shooting black powder and cast lead stood as a world record for three quarters of a century well into the development of such high power rifles.
Now I realize that the final development of the Springfield rifle in 45-70-500 was cutting edge for its time and still a very potentially accurate delivery system only due to time of flight of its projectiles perhaps a bit more difficult to shoot as accurately as modern high power rifles. Not less accurate just more difficult to shoot accurately at long ranges.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Apr 20, 2021 11:19:28 GMT -7
WOW !! How about me going to Forsyth by way of Dell this year? Maybe with your new addition, I would have a chance to hit all of the targets. Just kidding, of course, but congratulations on your new find. I really like shooting my 1884, & if I do my part, it is a good shooter also. Mine was made in 1887, & also for the old style bayonet. My ex son in law has a Cadet Model, along with it's original bayonet, frog & scabbard. It is an earlier model without Buffington sights.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 20, 2021 11:52:47 GMT -7
Gary I have been thinking about spotting for you but cant commit at this time. Having a good spotter calling your shots and corrections makes all the difference in the world.
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Post by missionary on Apr 20, 2021 13:10:03 GMT -7
Whatever that Trapdoor is it is a fine shooter.
I am still hunting for info on a Sharpshooter Trapdoor. If they were made or even Post altered someone must have wrote about them.
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Post by missionary on Apr 20, 2021 14:07:23 GMT -7
So far the best info I have read is on Trapdoorcollector.com
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 20, 2021 15:17:13 GMT -7
Mike they may possibly be referred to as a marksman's rifle as such proven accurate rifles were reserved for the company marksman the few known to be the best shots in each company. I think it was common practice for all modern armies around the world to do so.
I watched "" saving private Ryan last night and the designated marksman shooting an 03-A3 with era optic made his performance believable, mostly.
Like you said though no matter its an entertaining pastime learning just how good our military rifles could shoot at about the last three decades of the 1800's
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 20, 2021 15:32:17 GMT -7
Gary I went to that sight and had to chuckle when I saw on the main page a picture of a beautiful rifle being called a marksman's rifle after I just wrote that in my previous post.
Also I found something else interesting in the picture for the 1884 spike bayonet model in that it has a front sight shaped much like my sight. It is not a picture of the standard front sight cover as I have an example of one of those here. The sight pictured is in a figure 8 pattern one half circling the barrel and one half circling the sight aperture just as my sight is. Interesting !
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Post by todddoyka on Apr 20, 2021 18:44:45 GMT -7
we need a smiley that is drooling!!!!!
great deal!!!! esp the 45-70!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 21, 2021 10:36:40 GMT -7
My B-Day is in a couple days and Tina had ordered me a trapdoor collectors book for it and the book arrived today but she was unable to hide it from me. So with a very enthusiastic quick review I think I have to come to the conclusion that the sight on my rifle was never an issue sight. Experimental possibly but never issued.
Something else I quickly learned is that I have much to learn about all the different variations in all the component parts of all the models of the trapdoor rifles.
I did see a figure eight type front sight cover but that is something different and is likely what I was seeing at the site Gary led us to in the view of the 1884 model with spike bayonet. There was also another front sight cover the type I have on a different rifle which slips over the standing front sight blade and has a split bottom with a draw screw that tightens onto the barrel. Its a very good looking very solid arrangement but definitely not the sight in question on this rifle.
Its looking like Mike is wright and that this is likely a custom sight built by a serious target shooter. As such it was probably too late to be summited as a prototype for evaluation and potential gov. purchase. Too bad because it is a better sight.
As for the rear this rifle has the later Buffington type sight but since those tiny peep holes are so far from the shooters eye I cant use them so only use the v type notches for sighting. For this reason I prefer the 1873 model rear sight type with a stairway type adjustments for short to mid range the the stand up leaf with slider for longer ranges. This sight uses the v type aiming notch in both positions so eliminates some of the clutter on the Buffington sight. The Buffington has to have two sets of range marks on the slider one each corresponding to either a peep hole or a v notch. The 73 sight may be a bit simpler and faster to use.
The Buffington may well have greater accuracy potential but it requires perfect vision to realize the advantage. No matter though I will happily keep plugging along using the v notch in the Buffington sight as it shoots well enough to please me. Now I have some reading to do in my new B-day book !
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Post by shootist---Gary on Apr 21, 2021 14:05:01 GMT -7
Keep on acquiring these types of weapons & sharing what you are learning about each one with us. These are the kinds of guns that I have always been partial to. I'm not a high velocity, bottle neck, bolt action type of guy, as I shoot left handed. From when I started buying, collecting & informally shooting, muzzleloaders, lever actions, cap & ball pistols & S.A.A. Colts have been my favorites. Oh, by the way, 2 weeks ago, I became the proud owner of a Uberti 1851 Colt London Model, .36 Navy, with 2 cylinders, original box & papers for $400. It was originally sold by Dixie Gun Works in 2010, & looks like it has never been shot. This goes very nicely with my Uberti 1847 Walker Colt .44. Best wishes on your upcoming Birthday.
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Post by todddoyka on Apr 21, 2021 18:49:47 GMT -7
happy upcoming birthday!!!!!!
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Post by missionary on Apr 22, 2021 6:00:22 GMT -7
That was a fine birthday present ! Your kind wife has done you well..
That book is a treasure of accumulated knowledge and history of an accurate rifle that served our military well for 30 years.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 22, 2021 14:52:40 GMT -7
My first cruise through the book I only looked at pictures of the various sights that were issued. Not seeing the one on my rifle I may have wrongfully assumed it is not original. I barely got started on the books foreword and this paragraph just jumped right out,
"" the ordinance department also designed specialized variations of the 45-70 Springfield like the officers model, model 1881 shotgun, various experimental rod bayonet rifles preceding the adoption of the model 1888, and long range, and marksman's rifles. These variations are beyond the scope of this text and will be treated in a companion volume."""
I must now search for the companion volume!
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