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Post by Bullshop on Jan 4, 2021 11:34:26 GMT -7
I would appreciate hearing opinions on a quandary I am experiencing. I am looking at a Ruger revolver in 44 magnum with a 4" barrel. My first thoughts were that with such a short barrel in 44 mag that the recoil might be terrible.
Then pondering the fact that the 4" barrel was the preferred barrel length of the father of the 44 mag Elmer Keith. The well known Keith load with a stout charge of 2400 and his 250gn bullet is no slouch but still Elmer did some fine shooting even long range shooting with his 4" barreled model 29 revolvers. Actually his first two were pre model 29's with no identifying marks made in the S&W tool room in the early 50's
I know because I have handled one of the two owned by my former boss Erv Malnorich given to him by his former partner Elmer Keith in a packing freighting business but that is another story for another time.
The question that has come up in my mind is one of the physics involved regarding revolver barrel length. It occurred to me that the revolver grip is a fulcrum in a lever system the barrel being the lever. I am now thinking that a longer barrel/lever may have greater effect on barrel whip than a short barrel. Remember Archimedes ? "" give me a long enough lever and I can move the world ""
There are other factors that will work into the equation such as barrel weight, bullet weight, powder burn rate, powder weight, and bullet dwell time some of which may well cancel each other out.
The basic question of my quandary is in and of itself will the short 4" barrel, #1 cause less barrel whip, #2 cause mare barrel whip, or #3 make no change in the degree of angle in the rise of the muzzle on firing the revolver with equal loads over barrels with greater length ?
Go ahead educate me !
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Post by missionary on Jan 4, 2021 13:15:30 GMT -7
Howdy Dan Short of hacksawing S&W barrels to shorter lengths, it would be easy to use those fine Dan Wesson revolvers and in 2 minutes change barrel lengths. The issue I can see is how to actually measure the barrel flip / whip. We humans can muddy statistics real fast just by the grip as we can alter it even in minute applications.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 4, 2021 13:28:22 GMT -7
Maybe what I meant to say was , " bloody knuckles or no bloody knuckles ""
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Post by missionary on Jan 4, 2021 14:46:18 GMT -7
Bloody Knuckles !! That would sure be a rough test bed. Our first Ruger, a Super Blackhawk 44 mag 7.5 inch, seemed to take great pleasure in bashing my right middle right finger knuckle. So much that I took up shooting it like a 44 Special until I got a leather glove. And still I loaded our 240 grain cast under the speed of ear busting. It was at that time (1978) I found our first Dan Wesson. And Mr. Ruger went down the trail.
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Post by Junior on Jan 5, 2021 2:37:32 GMT -7
Seeing that I own 44 mags ranging from 2” to 10” I would say that there is. Happy medium. The short barrels drive straight back into the hand, smacking into the palm very sharply. The longer barrels do pivot more in the hand, busting the knuckles on the trigger guard. My all time favorite is a 5” model 29 I have. It shoots heavy loads quite easily, much easier shooting then any of the other 44 mags that I own. It doesn’t bust the knuckles, but it also doesn’t make your palm feel like you dropped a anvil on it. This target is one that I recently shot with the pistol. 30 rounds are various ranges out to 20 yards, off hand. Load was a 300gn less cast from WW over 20 grains of H110. Water http://instagram.com/p/CJqJFIdL4ML If you have the hankering for a 4 and 5/8 Ruger, I have a 45 colt I would sell cheap.
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Post by missionary on Jan 5, 2021 5:08:35 GMT -7
Thank you !!!
Now we need someone with a Dan Wesson (same frame same grip) to pop up.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 5, 2021 12:49:42 GMT -7
with a heavy heart, i sold my ruger srh (7.5" barrel) in 44 mag when i had the stroke. it was too long of a barrel for me(using one hand). then i got the ruger sbh (4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag. i didn't try using win296/h110 but i did try 2400 using a 255gr kieth type boolit. at 50 yards, i would go about 4-5" group(5 shots) using my tripod. then i tried using unique and my groups shrink to about 3-4"(4" group was avg). now i use a 44 spl and a skeeter load that goes around 3" at 50 yards and thats good enuff fer me. when i had the srh(7.5" barrel) and a 200 and 240gr xtp with a hot load of win296, it would go about 2 - 3" at 100 yards using a rest. i don't remember about the recoil, it was 20+ years ago for the srh. the sbh(4 5/8" barrel) that i have now, doesn't have a bad muzzle flip, or "no bloody knuckles". but i am using unique in a 44 spl case. i never had "bloody knuckles". it may have been grip and my hand placement? i don't know, i have never been to a handgun instructor. the revolver always "rolled" ( i don't know if thats the correct word?) in my hand when i fired it. and my arms weren't locked in the elbow. its probably a good idea that i never went to a handgun instructor, he'd look at my form and say God, why do You punish me?
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Post by missionary on Jan 5, 2021 14:41:28 GMT -7
Hey if it works for you it is the right way for you. When I shot the Silly wet steel critters I did not lay on my back like everyone one else did. I used my two hands on the revolver. All sorts of guys chuckled because they said I had no head support. Well they stopped when I was shooting 40x40 with our Dan Wessons.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 6, 2021 10:42:03 GMT -7
I think the equation is really simple, more bullet + more powder = more pain. I have Ruger knuckle. The pain over rides my concentration and makes me a flinching fool. Mayhaps I should just stay away from the 44 mag. I too have come to the conclusion that for a sporting carry gun a 5" barrel is about right. It is right about in the middle for leverage but still offers enough sight radius for accurate shooting. I just have to come to grips with the fact that Elmer was a better revolver shot than me . Something I have learned is that if it dont hurt I can shoot it pretty good. I have developed a fondness for a Ruger Bisley flat top 44 special with 5" barrel. With a 180gn full wadcutter from a Lyman mold and 4.2gn Red Dot this gun/load is extremely easy to shoot well and at 25 yards very accurate. Unfortunately at 50 yards the accuracy falls apart which is typical of full wad cutter bullets. At 25 yards though it is a confidence builder proving that when I do it right I am rewarded with accuracy. On the rare occasions that I have to go to town this is the gun/load I carry. I have absolute confidence that in a close quarters situation where a perp is hiding behind a hostage that even an exposed eyeball is a fair target. I do mentally rehearse this type situation because of my love for my daughters and the ever increasing possibility. The only possible acceptable outcome in such a situation is BIG MISTAKE for the perp ! I see too many cop shows with a perp hiding behind a hostage and at a few feet distance armed men seem helpless. They say chance favors a prepared mind so I am prepared.
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Post by missionary on Jan 6, 2021 13:11:51 GMT -7
My wife and I have discussed that scenario often. She knows that when I say "on three" I will be firing on two. All she needs to do is close her eyes.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 26, 2021 17:59:19 GMT -7
What's up, I log on to your new stuff regularly. Your humooristic style is witty, a Thank you. Your welcome any time to join right in even on the dull boring stuff.
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Post by Junior on Jan 26, 2021 22:32:05 GMT -7
I’m guessing that is a scammer judging the profile. Do not clink the link. He will be removed.
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Post by Hombre on Mar 6, 2021 19:01:13 GMT -7
A bit late to the dance here! In 1969 traded into a Ruger Super Blackhawk, only used cast 250 gr Keith n' 22.0 grs 2400. A splendid shooting setup. The negative side was the tip of the barrel tended to wear a hole in my jeans down around my knee! Too big, long and too heavy, for 'my' use as a trail gun, it found a new home. In 1972 came up with a 1958 Colt SAA 5 1/2 .44 Special. Felt right for what I wanted a trail gun to do. It went to Alaska with me and seeing as how, thanks to Dirty Harry, a S&W Model 29 was pretty much 'unobtainium'. The Colt SAA got fed a 250 gr Keith ahead of 17.0 grs 2400 (aka: Elmer load). Using a Bill English Pak Tool, could reload .44 Spcl in the bush. One day, in the middle of Alaska (180 air miles north or Fairbanks) a NIB 6 1/2" blued Model 29 came my way. A friend also got one of the same. I fired both, one in each hand, with factory Remington 240 gr ammunition. Was kinda a hoot! Just had to do it! I carried the Model 29 for 3 days on foot in the bush - then sold it. Too big; too heavy. Back to the Colt SAA it was. With the Elmer level loads in .44 Special, felt it was at least as effective as a .41 Magnum would be...and at close range the load is effective. When working at King Salmon, Alaska in 1989, S&W came out with the Mountain Revolver (first 5,000 were called Mountain Revolver, after that run the were/are called Mountain Gun). Being close enough to the same weight as the Colt SAA, though slightly larger, I began using that model, in .44 magnum. That has been my go to .44 magnum ever since. Still have the original Mountain Revolver, and have another Mountain Gun as well. I look at the Mountain Gun as a .44 Special I am able to shoot .44 magnums in if want to/need to. I find the 4' barrel convenient and suitable for my wants/needs. A change I made with the Mountain Revolver/Gun was to set aside the finger grooved Pachmayr rubber grips and install the Pachmayr Compact Grip. Why? The Compact Grip allowed the revolver to set lower in my hand by 3/8" to 1/2", thus bringing down the centerline of the bore closer to being inline with my forearm. With the factory finger groove grip holding the revolver higher in my hand, it intensified the torque upwards/back in my hand. Using the Compact Grip, the felt recoil was more inline with my forearm, thusly less muzzle torque upwards/back. The original Colt SAA in .44 Special still gets use in the field. If feel the need for more thump, a S&W .44 magnum Mountain Gun is called upon. If more thump is wanted, then a Ruger Bisley Super Blackhawk 4 5/8" in .480 Ruger, using Bull Shop 410 gr cast, is available! Like if I require to hit something on the other side of a Kenworth semi truck!! The choice of the Ruger Bisley Blackhawk .44 Special is well chosen I'd say. Blackhawk frame being smaller than Super Blackhawk frame size. Wouldn't mind adding one like it to the 'herd' myself. Here's an article by Ross Seyfried, that may be of interest (if you haven't already read it). www.gunsamerica.com/digest/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/
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Post by missionary on Mar 7, 2021 11:48:49 GMT -7
I do like the choice of the 44 Special. Only 44 I still enjoy to carry about. That 5 shot 3 inch Ruger came out with is another fine addition to an all day woods revolver. Strong enough for any 44 Special+ P load.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 10, 2021 16:38:14 GMT -7
Thanks Ken ! I had not read that article by Ross Seyfried . I enjoyed it immensely. My feelings were on par with his in that it is as close to a Keith's special #5 as I will get. There were times in the past when they were available that I was close to ordering a Grovers special #5 from Texas Long Horn Arms but could never quite swing it. The Grovers #5 had an odd twist from the Keith #5 in that it had its loading gate on the left side . Other than the loading gate it was a good copy of the Keith #5 I have not seen those available for a long time.
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Post by Junior on Mar 11, 2021 11:16:44 GMT -7
I’ve always felt under gunned with a 44 special. Even my little 2” Taurus sees a steady diet of full bore 44 magnum ammo, and I don’t think I’ve ever fired a 44 special through any of the revolvers I have now. My favorite of my various 44 mags is a Smith 29-5 with a 5” barrel with full under lug. This pistol is almost always on my hip if I’m not working. When working, I carry a 1911 commander in a shoulder holster I can hide under my hi-vis vest.
I like a double action 44 magnum since it allows pretty quick follow up shots if need be. I have a Toklat 454, but I find it too big and heavy for general carry, and the recoil is nearly as heavy as a X-frame smith in 500. So I stick to the 44 mag for most use, loaded with a 300gn Lee and 20.5gn if H110. Heavy enough to handle anything I need, accurate enough to still put small game in the bag.
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Post by Junior on Mar 11, 2021 11:32:07 GMT -7
Couple of photos of grouse I took while out moose hunting last season.
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Post by missionary on Mar 12, 2021 5:22:44 GMT -7
Popping grouse with a revolver is great fun ! Those are some good looking birds. Baked and stuffed with onions sound right good abut now. We have a "grouse" type down here but they are well cammoed about the color of the brush your second picture contains.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 12, 2021 8:45:33 GMT -7
The Francolins are easy they sit there like they want to be killed. The roughs not so easy even with a shotgun. Most often you only hear the roughs take off. Sometimes you hear and see them take off. On rare occasion you see them sitting still or walking slowly. Even when walking slowly the head is a hard target because it is constantly and quickly darting up and down. If you aim at the head and squeeze off a shot just as the head darts down its a high miss and you seldom get a second chance. Of all the grouse the rough is my favorite eating. They have a white flesh were as all others are dark. Enjoying a rough grouse meal is a rare and well cherished occasion for me. The ones I got the most in the Delta area were sharp tails. They are good eating but not as good as a rough.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 12, 2021 12:09:27 GMT -7
the ruffed grouse are a real (fill in the word)to shoot. i think i was 1 bird = 5 or 6 shotgun shells. in comparison, a ringed neck pheasant was 1 bird = 1 - 1.25 shells. but i gave that up long ago.
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Post by missionary on Mar 12, 2021 13:46:43 GMT -7
I never saw any grouse until we arrived down here and I started wandering the deserts. Ours have the white meat and tend to run unless they have to fly. I never have shot one with a shotgun but our 38 Special revolver accounted for several. One I got as it was just flushing straight up at maybe 10 yards. One running and others after they scooted to a bush.
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Post by Junior on Mar 13, 2021 1:01:58 GMT -7
That bigger rough grouse is the biggest one I’ve ever seen. I have the fan here over my gun bench and it’s a full 13” from edge to edge. I actually was riding the four wheeler out and saw his strutting around as I rode past. Stopped the wheeler and walked back and popped him with the 44, and that’s when the second one flushed and I dropped her on the wing.
That 5” model 29 points better for me then any other pistol I’ve ever shot, I’ve I can almost always hit targets from the hip as well as moving targets. It’s also my most accurate revolver and will shoot better then I can. I fired about 3000 rounds through it last year, but unfortunately I haven’t been shooting lately since I can’t get components. With the way things have been since I moved back, I wasn’t able to stock up either, and stupidly shot up what I had.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 13, 2021 9:00:59 GMT -7
Everyone seems to be feeling the component pinch. The Trading Post here in Dillon was always well stocked throughout all the other shortages but is now out of everything. Our business is not hurting because we have always stayed well supplied. For the years that we have been in business I have seen the steady rise in component prices so have always viewed it as an investment opportunity. The major suppliers for licensed manufacturers send us their supply inventory list each month which is basically zero. What they do get goes to back orders and they say they can not yet see light at the end of this tunnel. The prices I see on GB auctions are absolutely insane but some very desperate people are paying it. The real down side is that prices seldom go back down even after resupply. I still shoot a lot but have some guilt about it. I just recorded for my 44 special I have had going on one year now just hit 1000 rounds fired this week. Even though the cost to me was slight I cant help think of the value at auction.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 13, 2021 12:58:23 GMT -7
Got this monthly statement from Black Hills Supply this AM ---
Incoming so far in March has been very solid and we have processed quite a few backorders. However, we have not made enough progress to change the status of primers or powder backorders at this time. We will continue to evaluate and let you know through these email updates when this changes for powder/primers.
Thank you, Black Hills Shooters Supply
Sounds a little better than last month.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 13, 2021 17:05:45 GMT -7
Hi Daniel. Yesterday, I received an email from Al Kajin of the Matthew Quigley rifle match. It is scheduled for Father's Day weekend, June 19 & 20. I have been planning to start loading .45-70 rounds with 29 gr. of IMR 4198, but with prices & availability of primers & powder, I might just stick with BP. I have 7 or 8 lbs of Goex & Swiss stashed in steel ammo boxes in my garage. I was counting empty brass a few nights ago, & have between 150 & 200 empties, of which 44 are R-P Nickled. I bought them for .40 each from a friend, back in Dec. I also have been watching prices going up on .45-70 used brass, so, I think I have enough. I have 2 boxes, 40 rounds of Black Hills, 405 gr. lead bullets, that I think are loaded with Pyrodex, that I won't shoot in my guns, so I will "pull" the bullets, & then reload the cases. I might need 100 more 535 gr. .459 Postell bullets, so, let me know how much for them, & 100 500 gr., .458 Gov't round nose, like you made for me before. I joined a local conservation club last Nov., so I now have a 100 yd. outdoor range to practice on, then, my ex s.i.l has about 250 yds. behind his home that I can use at times, but it is about 60 miles away. Have you been shooting your .25-20 lately, & if so, how is it shooting? I'm still trying to find Elmer's "Sixguns" book for you. Take care, Gary
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