question about the 25-20 wcf and case fillers
Sept 17, 2020 8:18:54 GMT -7
todddoyka and shootist---Gary like this
Post by Bullshop on Sept 17, 2020 8:18:54 GMT -7
question---- I’ve been reading in some of the online forums that some guys use Dacron filler to keep small charges of powder in place when loading for the 25/20.
I have never done that with anything I’ve ever loaded and am reluctant to even try it .
I only ask you about it because of your experience with this caliber, what do you think ? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Answer --Well Sir your getting into a touchy subject that has been causing several points if disagreement for quite some time.
In my opinion at times fillers are needed to improve powder ignition uniformity and in cases where it is needed it usually works if properly done.
Now let me qualify the parts of that statement . # 1 if properly done--- Fillers have the potential to cause damage to the firearm if they are not applied correctly. Fillers that leave any air space between the base of the bullet and the filler material can and will caused ringed chambers. Fillers that FILL can greatly improve powder ignition uniformity and greatly improve accuracy. Fillers are not a new idea as all shot gun wads are basically a collapsible filler properly applied.
I do use fillers when needed and my method as usual is my method but works for me. I use Styrofoam packing popcorn and FILL the case so that the PP is compressed when seating the bullet. This has been working for me for nearly 40 years with only positive effect and no negative issues.
#2 When needed.--- Usually for me fillers are reserved for large volume cases most often of which were originally black powder cartridges that made the transition to smokeless powders. This type of case always has a greater volume than needed for smokeless powder as well as being limited to BP pressures of less than 20,000 psi if being used in original vintage arms. This situation dictates a relatively fast powder burn rate which in turn dictates a low volume charge in relation to the case volume. This now you can see would be a “” when needed “” situation.
#3 If properly done --- we touched on this in #1 in that if the empty space in the case is not completely filled and if the filler is allowed free movement ( not compression) between the powder charge and the bullet base the filler can act as a secondary projectile and cause a ringed chamber at the point of the chamber where the filler impacts the bullet base. This is the reason I use PP as a filler because A- it is nearly weightless and B- is easy to fill the case with.
Now more directly to your question about the 25-20. In this case the 25-20 wcf does not fall into the category of “” when needed””. The 25-20 wcf was never a black powder cartridge and is not a large volume case . The normal charges of powders of proper burn rate for the 25-20 wcf adequately fill the small volume case so that powder ignition uniformity is never an issue due to excess case volume.
I treat the 25-20 wcf as though it was two different cartridges one being a traditional type low pressure load for older weaker rifles such as the Stevens model 44 . This type load uses powders in the general burn rate of Unique at about 3.5 to 4 gn charges. Even these small charges of powder fill the case sufficiently so that powder ignition uniformity if very good. The other type of load I use is strictly for strong rifles such as the Winchester model 92 and Marlin model 94 . For these type rifles I use powder charges that give 100 % load density of burn rates starting at about Alliant 2400 and ending at WW-680.
So you can see that in either case there is no need for case fillers in the 25-20 wcf cartridge. In my humble opinion anyone that believes differently has not developed that opinion through experience with the cartridge.
Hope this is helpful for you!
The Bullshop
I have never done that with anything I’ve ever loaded and am reluctant to even try it .
I only ask you about it because of your experience with this caliber, what do you think ? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Answer --Well Sir your getting into a touchy subject that has been causing several points if disagreement for quite some time.
In my opinion at times fillers are needed to improve powder ignition uniformity and in cases where it is needed it usually works if properly done.
Now let me qualify the parts of that statement . # 1 if properly done--- Fillers have the potential to cause damage to the firearm if they are not applied correctly. Fillers that leave any air space between the base of the bullet and the filler material can and will caused ringed chambers. Fillers that FILL can greatly improve powder ignition uniformity and greatly improve accuracy. Fillers are not a new idea as all shot gun wads are basically a collapsible filler properly applied.
I do use fillers when needed and my method as usual is my method but works for me. I use Styrofoam packing popcorn and FILL the case so that the PP is compressed when seating the bullet. This has been working for me for nearly 40 years with only positive effect and no negative issues.
#2 When needed.--- Usually for me fillers are reserved for large volume cases most often of which were originally black powder cartridges that made the transition to smokeless powders. This type of case always has a greater volume than needed for smokeless powder as well as being limited to BP pressures of less than 20,000 psi if being used in original vintage arms. This situation dictates a relatively fast powder burn rate which in turn dictates a low volume charge in relation to the case volume. This now you can see would be a “” when needed “” situation.
#3 If properly done --- we touched on this in #1 in that if the empty space in the case is not completely filled and if the filler is allowed free movement ( not compression) between the powder charge and the bullet base the filler can act as a secondary projectile and cause a ringed chamber at the point of the chamber where the filler impacts the bullet base. This is the reason I use PP as a filler because A- it is nearly weightless and B- is easy to fill the case with.
Now more directly to your question about the 25-20. In this case the 25-20 wcf does not fall into the category of “” when needed””. The 25-20 wcf was never a black powder cartridge and is not a large volume case . The normal charges of powders of proper burn rate for the 25-20 wcf adequately fill the small volume case so that powder ignition uniformity is never an issue due to excess case volume.
I treat the 25-20 wcf as though it was two different cartridges one being a traditional type low pressure load for older weaker rifles such as the Stevens model 44 . This type load uses powders in the general burn rate of Unique at about 3.5 to 4 gn charges. Even these small charges of powder fill the case sufficiently so that powder ignition uniformity if very good. The other type of load I use is strictly for strong rifles such as the Winchester model 92 and Marlin model 94 . For these type rifles I use powder charges that give 100 % load density of burn rates starting at about Alliant 2400 and ending at WW-680.
So you can see that in either case there is no need for case fillers in the 25-20 wcf cartridge. In my humble opinion anyone that believes differently has not developed that opinion through experience with the cartridge.
Hope this is helpful for you!
The Bullshop
