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Post by Bullshop on Aug 27, 2019 12:34:39 GMT -7
Why you might ask do I refer to my 25-20 as twisted. I am glad you asked because I am anxious to explain. First I use the term twisted to describe the strangely different nature of the rifle. Most folks I believe when they hear mention of the 25-20 cartridge they automatically think lever action of either the 1892 Winchester or the 1894 Marlin. Some might even conjure up visions of the old Savage 23 series bolt action rifles. I think it safe to assume though that most folks will be reminded of their favorite small frame lever action rifle when the 25-20 is mentioned and is how it should be since those rifles were the ones that at a long lost time ago brought popularity to the cartridge. Why then in this regard would I consider my rifle twisted, because it is built on an action that few would ever imagine when conversing on the cartridge. My rifle is built on an 1898 Krag receiver. This was a popular depression era conversion to 22 hornet but I personally have never seen another in 25-20. I have another very early conversion in 22 hornet which I enjoy immensely and when I got this one it was in 22 K hornet. Unfortunately its K hornet barrel had seen better days and I simply could not get it to shoot satisfactorily so decided to re-barrel. I had on hand a used 25 caliber barrel that has been chambered in 257 Roberts. This now brings me to the second reason I refer to this as a twisted 25-20 in that the Roberts barrel used the standard for the cartridge a 1/10" twist. Since the standard twist for the 25-20 is 1/14" going to the much faster 1/10" twist is quite a departure from the norm. On the heavy end for bullet weight for the 25-20 with standard 1/14" twist the limit is 85 to 87gn for jacketed bullets and perhaps a few grains more for cast bullets depending on the length. Enter the twisted 25-20 with 1/10" twist and now we have a whole different animal that can handle the full range of 25 caliber bullet weights from 60gn to 120gn. This following the trend for long heavy for caliber bullets at sub sonic velocities for sound suppression reasons may have something going on in that regard. Not so for me though as I have no funding for such amusement but adding to the whack factor does pic my interest. My beloved brother mike on this forum has several times told me that he was told that the two other smaller calibers on the 32-20 case lacked the whumpum to anchor the larger varmints like badger, and coyotes and such but this rifle puts a different spin on things, (pun intended). If you can make out the target you will see that with the load shown using a 117gn bullet at an average velocity of 1743 fps the rifle is capable of impressive accuracy. In comparison my Lyman 4th edition cast bullet handbook is showing a 115gn bullet in the 32-20 at a shade over 1300 fps and this in the rifle section. Now I know that in a sound platform the 32-20 can produce more snoosh but I doubt it will better the twisted 25-20's 1743 fps by much. So then in regard to paper ballistics the twisted 25 seems to lack little compared to its 32 caliber sibling. There is though that difference in diameter that will most certainly show itself on large varmints. The larger caliber without question will add to the whack factor but because of in comparison its poorer sectional density it will not penetrate as well nor will it maintain its terminal velocity as well as the much longer 117gn 25 caliber. To keep the terminal ballistics simple I will only here say that terminal velocity has an effect on permanent wound channel. For this discussion I want to keep terminal performance simple because it will require a whole nother very lengthy discussion to cover it adequately. So there you have it a case for the twisted 25-20. A very close friend now passed on to his reward used to tell me, "" poor folks got poor ways"" For a time I was slightly offended by that remark until I realized what he meant by it. This rifle did not come about by intension but rater by the desire to put it back into use but lacking funding for a proper barrel. I cant at all be disappointed with the outcome and so am quite content to refer to this handy fun little rifle as my twisted 25-20. Pic to be added soon Attachments:
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Post by todddoyka on Aug 27, 2019 16:55:35 GMT -7
that is a most "awesomest" 25-20 krag that i have ever seen!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 27, 2019 17:59:46 GMT -7
And likely the only one any of us will ever see. I am very tempted to give it a go at early season coyotes. Early season shots are usually close, sometimes very very close but often moving. This carbine length should be fast handling for such up close shots and have plenty of smack down for coyotes.
Another feature I like about this rifle is that when slung over the shoulder the muzzle is lower than the top of my head. This makes it ever so much easier getting through brush as if you can walk under limbs without bumping your head there is no need to bend over.
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Post by missionary on Aug 28, 2019 6:35:35 GMT -7
Good morning
Godly contentment is a wonderful gift. May come about through a varied path but it is the end of the journey that makes it a jewel.
That is a unique Krag ! Obviously the magazine is altered or removed... Is there a single shot "platform" installed ? That is a fine Krag ! If one of those had been available 60 years ago in SW Michigan it would have stirred the pot of all the old ground hog shooter arguments. The old 32-20 shooters (and now I am one) would have had a lot of snorting to contend with.
Certainly a simple solution to the issue of turning the 25-20 into a real "thwapper" down range. I am impressed ! A 117 grain zipping along at 1700+ fps with good 100 yard accuracy ! That will do the trick. A good flat nose should give the energy transfer you want to "plant" those pesky critters. At that zipper speed a soft enough RN should work nicely.
I would for sure give it a try on Yotes as they are no more "tough" than a big ground hog or racoon. Smack those shoulders and they are not going far.
That is one fine Krag !
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 28, 2019 7:59:24 GMT -7
Yes Mike as you suspected the mag is removed and blocked off to make a single shot. My Krag hornet is the same way. They are very easy to load even to load quickly though because of the large opening at the breach and the fact that the breach is farther back in the receiver than a dual opposed front locking bolt can be. Very quick and easy to chamber a round even without looking.
The bullet that this Krag has shown a fondness for the 117gn bullet is designed for the 25-35 wcf so is a flat nose so well suited to varminting. Most 25 caliber cast bullet designs are flat nose but there are exceptions for sure. Most though are designed for either the 25-20 or 25-35 so are flat nose. Interestingly 25 caliber bullet sales lead most other calibers with the exception of perhaps 45 caliber but 45 caliber should be viewed as two different calibers because as you know diameters for 45 cal handguns are different than diameters for 45 caliber rifles.
As we developed our market I found the popularity of 25 caliber very interesting. Most sales in this caliber are for bullets on the lighter end more suited to the 25-20. That tells me that even though the 25-20 gets very little publicity it is still popular with shooters especially re-loaders. Some of these sales are for the 25-35 as well as some being for the 25-20 SS but for the 25 caliber to be a best seller has my attention so we offer a better selection in 25 caliber than any other commercial suppliers, but then we do the same in most calibers.
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Post by missionary on Aug 28, 2019 11:20:46 GMT -7
I do know this about 25-20... When new Winchester brass appears it promptly gets purchased so there are for certain reloaders out there who do like it.
We have a 25-20 single shot. If I can find the photo I will get it here. It works very well on smaller critters with the 75 grainers. Would be reliable for head shots / spine-neck shots on larger ones but I am very fond of punching through both shoulders. That was how I was taught years ago and it just stuck.
So when I am going to be in close quarters I take either caliber as those shots (slinking through drain ditches and field edges or bottoms) are normally under 25 yards. Sometimes half that if I can be still long enough. But usually there is a Dan Wesson 32-20 revolver with me (1-10 twist .308 barrel) with 125 grain FNGC slugs on the hot side for anything big that gets sent my way. Rare but sometimes a 40 plus pound ground hog gets lazy in the sun or careless.
One day down in the bottoms I was sitting still myself being lazy. Wandering along came a medium sized ground hog. I was getting lined up on the shoulders but saw movement in a tree above and a bit behind. Well I got curious and looked up in the tree and there was a big Red Tail Hawk jumping from limb to limb following the groundhog. I hoped ol Red Tail would do his swoop down but never did. I guess he figured being prudent was better than tackling a ground hog that was double or more his fighting weight.
That was one of the few ground hogs I have not popped. I never told the farmer about that one as his standing orders are shoot everything that digs holes so his cattle do not slip into some critter den.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Aug 28, 2019 19:13:47 GMT -7
Mike, last year after having fun at the almost rained out quigley shoot at Forsyth, MT., I took 2 days to drive over to a small place called Dell, MT to eat at the renowned Calf-A schoolhouse restaurant. Upon leaving there, & following a local road for a quarter mile or so, I stopped at a rustic looking home that lo and behold, belongs to a very smart lead bullet caster. I was privileged to be able to spend a few hours with Daniel & his daughters. Even one of their dogs liked me well enough to try tasting my blood. Daniel had told me a while before, to bring something with me to go gopher hunting with, so altogether, I had about a dozen toys with me. He liked my 1921 round barrel Model 1892 Winchester .25 W.C.F. (.25-20), but didn't want to drain his wallet to keep it. I offered to leave it there, & let him make payments, but he didn't want to do that. I bought that rifle in Salem, Ohio during the late 1960's for $65, to shoot crows & groundhogs on our farm with. It is very accurate with standard Winchester ammo, & then I started reloading for it, but that was a long time ago, & I've lost my loading data. I still have the rifle, & have taken it to local gun shows, but buyers want bigger calibers for cowboy action shooting clubs.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 28, 2019 20:10:37 GMT -7
Gary Sir that is a fine old Winchester 92. I still have bouts of the jitters and cold sweats knowing that I willingly let it leave here. Got the fix in though for a 25-20 with this Krag. The girls have been after me to hunt rabbits. I keep telling them we cant eat rabbits until the ber months come, September, October, November. They already knew that but they are anxious as am I. We all enjoy fried cottontail. Jacks get ground up and mixed with deer and elk for sausage.
Joy one of the girls you met 11 years old now has become a crack shot and is still convinced that I let her win our little shooting competitions but truth be told she often beats me fair and square. She likes this little 25-20 and is trying to convince me it should be hers. I feel a bit like the witch on the Wizard of Oz, "" all in good time my pretty all in good time.""
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Post by missionary on Aug 29, 2019 6:30:07 GMT -7
AWWW popping rows ! That is one past time I do enjoy. Flintlocks are my favorite. Full camo and blowing out my lungs with the row call. I also use a double 12 Fox B on wet days. Have even used a 22 handgun. Many shooters will go through life never knowing what they have missed not having a small caliber rifle.. or revolver. We have a Dan Wesson in 32-20 that is great fun to go off plinking with  |
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 29, 2019 7:36:25 GMT -7
That Dan Wesson 32-20 should be a dandy revolver giving the old 32-20 magnum potential. I had a customer in Nome Alaska that had a large frame Freedom Arms revolver in 32-20 and he reported some extremely high velocities as being just the norm for that revolver.
I have a confession that may surprise you in that I have never ever even fired a flint lock. The desire has always been there but so far I have been unable to move past my ignorance of how to use one. I need some guidance there so put a flint lock on your list of things to bring when you visit.
I know as always the best way to learn is to just do it but not knowing what to look for as being good or bad and why that would be so has kept me from shopping.
Now cap locks I do know and do enjoy shooting. I have been looking for a light 32 caliber cap lock for the girls, something they will enjoy shooting and not be afraid of to learn loading procedures with. I found with a 32 I previously owned that it is a ballistic twin to the 22 wrm (22 mag). The 22 mag will push a 40gn bullet to 2000 fps from a rifle. In 32 caliber a round ball weighs 40 gn and using a 38 special case as a powder dipper for FFFG I got right at 2000 fps from the 32 cal ML. I thought that quite interesting that even before cartridge guns became available that 22 mag ballistic performance was available to small game hunters. Of course the 22 mag will have a range advantage but within the limits of the sights the 32 caliber muzzle loader was equally capable.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Aug 29, 2019 9:27:37 GMT -7
Daniel & Mike, I must be getting soft in my old age, (will be 77 in Dec.), as we buy mixed bird seed & carrots to feed the 4 or 5 cottontail rabbits that come to the yard behind the house, where I put the feed for them. Also, 1 of them likes cookies & peanut butter sandwiches that we make for the squirrels. The half grown bunny will let me walk around in the yard, & have been within 10 or 15 ft. of it before it moves a little farther away. When I was in school, & lived on the farm near Youngstown, Ohio, rabbits, pheasants, squirrels & groundhogs all got rolled in flour & fried like chicken. Now, I shoot starlings & blackbirds with my scoped Crosman 760 with a rifled barrel, that my mother had on the farm to shoot starlings off her bird feeders with. This gun was purchased during the 1980's, & has never been re sealed yet. I commonly get birds at 30 to 40 yards with it. The only thing I hunt to eat now is white tail deer, with either my 1884 Trapdoor .45-70, or one of my .50 cal. T/C Hawken muzzle loaders. I didn't get a shot last winter--saw 6 the first day, 3 while in my van pulling in the hunting area driveway, & 3 does, 15 min. later going thru the neighbor lady's yard. The rest of the season, 12 more days, never saw one.
I really enjoy reading your stories & informative posts about all of your experiences over the years. Some of the guns & cartridges don't interest me, but I like to read your stories about testing & trial & error results. I wish I lived closer than over 2000 miles, so I could see firsthand, & maybe even participate in the trigger pulling exercises. Oh well, you already have home grown assistants ready & willing to help you. Take care, my friend.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 29, 2019 9:36:29 GMT -7
Yesterday Wednesday was a slow day as usual. For some reason with our mail system we never get mail orders on Wednesday all we ever get is junk mail. Since I got caught up on orders early I had time to shoot the 25-20 Krag a bit more. A load that has worked well in other 25-20 rifles is 13gn of WC-680 (AA-1680) with the 80gn Ranch Dog bullet. Also having found a long forgotten stash of Sierra 75gn hollow point bullets I tried both of these the Sierra 75gn and Ranch Dog 80gn using the 13gn of WC-680 load. Both loads shot to about the same POI accept the Ranch Dog bullet shifted its group about 2" left of the POI of the Sierra bullet. Both loads went slightly over 2000 fps velocity. I will have Tina add a picture of the three targets fired one each with the 117gn NOE, 80gn Ranch Dog, and 75gn Sierra HP. I have included a few loaded rounds as well as the unloaded bullet respectively fired by each. These targets will demonstrate the versatility of the rifle as to usable bullet weight. Enjoy ! Attachments:
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Post by todddoyka on Aug 29, 2019 11:11:49 GMT -7
AH HA!!!!!!!! i knew it!!!!!!! the pictures that you post are Joy's targets!!!!!!ahem......i'm in the same boat but with a son. justin(21yo) can shoot rings around me.
and whats this about a flintlock? i have been shooting a 50 cal lyman lh deerstalker since i was 14 yo. well, recently i haven't been(5 or so years). i want a tennessee valley ML in southern rifle( www.tvmnatchez.com/southern-rifle ) but the cost (around $1500) of it really makes me wonder why? my dad has a fl tc hawkens?(i think) that he built in 1979-80. its stock is wonderful to behold. he used linspeed oil ( www.lin-speed.com/linspeed-instructions/ ) to finish it.
anyway, i can't wait for the ber months, esp octoBER!!!! the month archery for deer happens. ....now that i think about, i haven't killed a deer with arrows for about 7-8 years. i guess that i am waiting for The One.
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Post by missionary on Aug 29, 2019 16:15:19 GMT -7
Flintlocks are just like a cap lock except the one has a hard sharp rock that makes sparks. There really is not a whole lot to learn though. All sorts of good U-tube programs that can get you shooting good. Then there are some other U-tubes that are barely OK
Did you know you can shoot .32 in a .36 by using a thick patch. For that matter a .72 rifled barrel will shoot down to .58 round balls pretty well. It is just like paper patching except you ram the patch slug down instead of from the breach.
The long Ber" months archery season is a joy. When we schedule our time north we do so as I do enjoy November with a recurve. In ILLinois we get 3 months minus a few days when the revolver and shotgunners get their few days. And for years it has been unlimited bag for archery. Just buy more tags.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 29, 2019 16:41:51 GMT -7
"""AH HA!!!!!!!! i knew it!!!!!!! the pictures that you post are Joy's targets!!!!"""
UT-OH busted!!! I feel like a puppy that just got caught in the garbage.
Brother Mike, I was at a BP rendezvous one time and had in my possession a low end Spanish made flint lock rifle. The ""EXPERT "" there told me the best thing I could do with that rifle was throw it in the river. Since I didn't understand why he would say that I felt there was much I didn't know and needed to learn. It may well have been that he was an ML snob as he and his entourage all had fine and expensive custom rifles. After that I sold the FL and never again attempted to try one.
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Post by missionary on Aug 29, 2019 17:30:09 GMT -7
Unfortunately there are those who seen to go out of their way to drive others away. Granted there are some imports that are lower quality. But they will shoot. Maybe ignition will not be on par with a lock that costs $300 but no corn cruncher would ever know the difference.
It disheartens me every time I read of similar situations. Some seem to make it their goal to see how many individuals they can tear apart. And those same "experts" wonder why there are fewer shooters interested in running around in buckskins.
Well Brother be of good cheer. Anyone who can make excellent cast bullets can master a rock lock. Nothing more than being exposed to the proper information.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 30, 2019 6:15:08 GMT -7
Well then with your enlightenment you can easily guess where this may lead to.
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Post by missionary on Aug 30, 2019 7:51:55 GMT -7
We just finished our once a year Bougumbilia cleanup. Best thief barrier for a wall top I know of.. Nasty thorns that have a resin that burns like a bee sting. But a dirty plant that collects all the old leaves and dust. Have to shake them like terrier does to a snake.
Well I hope it leads you to a flintlock !
Just to throw a little more encouragement your way for years I had wanted a double flintlock smoothbore for hunting with shot but also round ball so a thick barrel. Learned real fast they were beyond my budget. So decided to be patient. Took a couple years but came across a double Belgium that had cheap locks and wood. Shot it a few times after working the locks and hardening the frizzen (the spark lever the flint sparks against). But I bought it at a good price just for the heavy RB barrels.
Saved and bought a pair (left & right) L&R locks. After two times up north have it near done. Always left it in shootable shape even if a bit buba ugly. So now like your 25-20 it is a fine double flinter but only 1/4 what they sell for. And I have a big smile happy watching how God put it all together.
So be pondering what type of flinter would be useful A smoothbore caliber 60 is very useful as a shot or roundball shooter out to 50 yards or so Longer reliable shots are rifled barrel. In that photo above the light stock is a .60 smoothbore and will take crows out to 40-45 yards. The one with the walnut stock is the double soothbore and also a .60. It will throw patched RB out to a deadly 50 yards. Plus a very reliable shot shooter out to 40+ yards.
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Post by todddoyka on Aug 30, 2019 14:20:21 GMT -7
i never got to shoot fl smoothbore. back in the day(12-16 yo), i hunted grey and fox squirrel with my marlin m25 22. what i wanted was a 36 cal fl muzzleloader to slay the squirrels and whatnot. i gave up on hunting the squirrels when i was 16 -17 yo and when my old squirrel eater died. he was 86yo and nearly blind, but i sure did like stories of hunting squirrels and deer he told.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 30, 2019 17:08:48 GMT -7
You know that now we are the old guys with the hunting stories but there just aren't many young folks that want to listen.
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Post by todddoyka on Aug 30, 2019 19:07:26 GMT -7
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Post by missionary on Aug 31, 2019 3:08:13 GMT -7
Well at least we have each other's stories to enjoy.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 31, 2019 8:21:53 GMT -7
That is true and at some point all the old stories we have heard many times seem like fresh new ones because we don't remember ever hearing them before.
Often I will ask my girls if I have ever told them the story about such and such and they most often respond, "" yes Dad many times". They are very kind about it though saying go ahead and tell the story we really want to hear it again. Don't ya luv um !!!
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