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Post by Bullshop on Mar 19, 2019 15:56:02 GMT -7
Recently I have come across a couple very nice old rifles that I liked very much but was hesitant to make any effort to acquire because of the brass availability or rather lack of for their chamberings. These were the Stevens 44 1/2, Winchester 1885 low wall, and the 1922 Springfield rifles. These rifles were chambered in 22-3000 Lovel and 25-20 single shot.
With the absence of Jamison brass the supply for 25-20 SS brass is limited and expensive at about $5.00 each. For this reason I have done a small bit of investigating into the hearsay of some folks making them from 223 Rem brass. I ran across a couple people claiming to be doing this but when pressed for the procedure no information is forthcoming accept well its a lot of work.
I recently was in touch with Steve Shrader of Shrader bullet works about acquiring more of his 22 CCM brass. While on the phone we asked about 25-20 SS brass and Steve said he did have some available. Steve's price was substantially less than half the cost of the other source so we took what he had. Steve is recovering from surgery and just now slowly getting back to making brass so he may or may not have more available in the future.
I am not sharing this to give a heads up of availability because it may not be but what I am giving a heads up on is what Steve is using as a base case to make 25-20 SS from. When I received the brass from Steve I was curious to see what he made them from fully expecting it to be some specific brand of 223 because of those rumors to such that I had dug up. I know he is particular as he long ago told me that for the 22 CCM brass he will only use Remington 22 Hornet for the parent case for what ever reasons I am not sure but he must have some.
Anyway checking the 25-20 SS brass I was quite surprised to find that the parent case he has used is the 357 Max case. I was totally caught off guard with that because of all the info digging I did that case was never mentioned as the parent case to form 25-20 SS brass from.
Not earth shaking information but something I thought I should share with the group here. When your learning curve is beginning to resemble a circle these little tidbits of information can be as gems extending the curve still closer to a closed circle. With mine I have to keep the gap on the top side because its still big enough for stuff to fall out, har har !!!
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 19, 2019 18:57:53 GMT -7
the 357 max strikes again!!!
i think(i really gotta stop that) that starline has 32-20 brass? i guess that you could form that to 25-20, but i don't know. i know that they have 357 max brass.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 19, 2019 20:48:09 GMT -7
Because of the price difference I make 25-20 wcf from 32-20 wcf. Very simple and can be done in a 25-20 wcf full length sizing die if done in steps. It is quite some mystery to me just why Star Line makes 32-20 but not 25-20 or 218 Bee for that matter !?! The Starline 32-20 brass is about $00.15 while on-line price for any 25-20 is about $1.00 and 218 even higher. All three are the same basic case so its a mystery! Making 25-20 SS is more difficult and requires turning at the rim, web, and neck area as well as pressure forming of the body. The turning at the neck is likely due to uneven neck thickening after being sized from 35 to 25 cal. I have not done this but just a visual of the Schrader brass shows evidence of it. I have attempted to make 22 CCM from 22 hornet but as of yet have been unsuccessful. The brass from Steve is excellent quality and lasts a long time. I have some 22 CCM cases that have to have been loaded 100 times. I kept count until it hit 50 then quit counting and that was quite a number of years and re-loads ago. The trick to making them last is to re-anneal after every three or four shots and keep chamber pressures well away from max. The 22 CCM works at about the same max pressures as the hornet and there is not near as much brass around the primer pocket of the 22 CCM as there is the 22 hornet.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 19, 2019 22:08:52 GMT -7
Daniel, I still have that Model 92 Winchester .25-20, with ammo, brass, some bullets & the loading dies, if that would make you happy.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 20, 2019 0:23:39 GMT -7
Making 25-20 SS is more difficult and requires turning at the rim, web, and neck area as well as pressure forming of the body. The turning at the neck is likely due to uneven neck thickening after being sized from 35 to 25 cal. I have not done this but just a visual of the Schrader brass shows evidence of it. eeeehhhhhhh...i try real hard not to do any of that. i'm a neck-up or down kinda guy. my 9.3x57 brass is a 8x57 prvi brass and my 20 vartarg brass is a 221 rem fireball brass. even my 270 brass is a necked down 30-06 brass. i did the neck turning on 100pcs of 20 vartarg brass, i could get .1 - .2" groups at 100 yards all day, but i got tired of neck turning, so i get .2 - .3" groups at 100 yards. groundhogs don't seem to matter . a 9.3x57 norma brass is going for $35 per 25 cases. a 8x57 prvi brass is going for $26 per 50 cases. i ain't the smartest guy in the room, but i'll take 50 8x57 prvi brass and my $9 home . if i had a 25-20 ss and i needed brass, then steve shrader is the guy i want!!!
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Post by missionary on Mar 20, 2019 6:02:51 GMT -7
Well the simple solution is we start writing Starline about making 25-20 SS brass. It only took 5 years of writing to get the first run of 38-55. 357 Max was 3 years. 414 Sm about 3-4 years. 444 marlin was a long wait it seemed. But if everyone with a 25-20 SS started asking and pleading and maybe throw in some grubbling they just might run a million. Why they make 348 and there are fewer of them than 25-20 SS rifles out there.
To start the ball rolling I just wrote Starline. There are others writing also. I also added 40-63 Ballard (40-70) to my request list. That is a real long shot.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 20, 2019 12:53:42 GMT -7
even tho i don't own one, i'll write them immediately. i was writing them for about 5 years to do the 444 marlin.
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 21, 2019 10:11:41 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2019 11:39:37 GMT -7
Loadxammo does not list 25-20 SS brass. They do list 25-20 wcf brass. These are not the same and not interchangeable. The 25-20 SS brass has been obsolete for 100 years. It was all pretty much scrounged up before the advent of the 222 rem for use in the 22-3000 Lovell cartridges, 22-3000, R-2, and Maximum. The first blow to popularity of the Lovell was perhaps factory production of the 22 Hornet but the death kneel was the introduction of the 222 Rem both having essentially the same ballistics . If the 222 had not come out when it did the Lovell cartridges may have kept 25-20 SS brass in production. It looks as though for awhile we would have a steady source in Jamison brass but they were brought down by legal issues dealing with export. Now we are back to having very limited availability and very expensive at $5.00 each. The Shrader brass was $1.50 each and is why I bought it. At a time long gone I once had a Stevens model 44 1/2 in 22-3000 Lovell topped with a 15X Unertal scope. This was a depression era rifle and a very dependable performer on varmints. My brass was from the last batch run for Griffon an Howe and was so head stamped. The brass was old and well worn and I was frustrated with unavailability so traded the gun for something modern (idiot!) If I had only known I would find some brass 40 years later !!! I would really enjoy having that old Stevens back even for a short time just to play with for a bit !!!
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Post by Junior on Mar 22, 2019 9:13:54 GMT -7
That would make sense to me. A friend and I have been playing with a AR15 in 357 max rimless with the parent case being blown out 223.
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Post by Gene on Jun 16, 2022 5:53:15 GMT -7
Recently I have come across a couple very nice old rifles that I liked very much but was hesitant to make any effort to acquire because of the brass availability or rather lack of for their chamberings. These were the Stevens 44 1/2, Winchester 1885 low wall, and the 1922 Springfield rifles. These rifles were chambered in 22-3000 Lovel and 25-20 single shot. With the absence of Jamison brass the supply for 25-20 SS brass is limited and expensive at about $5.00 each. For this reason I have done a small bit of investigating into the hearsay of some folks making them from 223 Rem brass. I ran across a couple people claiming to be doing this but when pressed for the procedure no information is forthcoming accept well its a lot of work. I recently was in touch with Steve Shrader of Shrader bullet works about acquiring more of his 22 CCM brass. While on the phone we asked about 25-20 SS brass and Steve said he did have some available. Steve's price was substantially less than half the cost of the other source so we took what he had. Steve is recovering from surgery and just now slowly getting back to making brass so he may or may not have more available in the future. I am not sharing this to give a heads up of availability because it may not be but what I am giving a heads up on is what Steve is using as a base case to make 25-20 SS from. When I received the brass from Steve I was curious to see what he made them from fully expecting it to be some specific brand of 223 because of those rumors to such that I had dug up. I know he is particular as he long ago told me that for the 22 CCM brass he will only use Remington 22 Hornet for the parent case for what ever reasons I am not sure but he must have some. Anyway checking the 25-20 SS brass I was quite surprised to find that the parent case he has used is the 357 Max case. I was totally caught off guard with that because of all the info digging I did that case was never mentioned as the parent case to form 25-20 SS brass from. Not earth shaking information but something I thought I should share with the group here. When your learning curve is beginning to resemble a circle these little tidbits of information can be as gems extending the curve still closer to a closed circle. With mine I have to keep the gap on the top side because its still big enough for stuff to fall out, har har !!!
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Post by Gene on Jun 16, 2022 5:55:11 GMT -7
Recently I have come across a couple very nice old rifles that I liked very much but was hesitant to make any effort to acquire because of the brass availability or rather lack of for their chamberings. These were the Stevens 44 1/2, Winchester 1885 low wall, and the 1922 Springfield rifles. These rifles were chambered in 22-3000 Lovel and 25-20 single shot. With the absence of Jamison brass the supply for 25-20 SS brass is limited and expensive at about $5.00 each. For this reason I have done a small bit of investigating into the hearsay of some folks making them from 223 Rem brass. I ran across a couple people claiming to be doing this but when pressed for the procedure no information is forthcoming accept well its a lot of work. I recently was in touch with Steve Shrader of Shrader bullet works about acquiring more of his 22 CCM brass. While on the phone we asked about 25-20 SS brass and Steve said he did have some available. Steve's price was substantially less than half the cost of the other source so we took what he had. Steve is recovering from surgery and just now slowly getting back to making brass so he may or may not have more available in the future. I am not sharing this to give a heads up of availability because it may not be but what I am giving a heads up on is what Steve is using as a base case to make 25-20 SS from. When I received the brass from Steve I was curious to see what he made them from fully expecting it to be some specific brand of 223 because of those rumors to such that I had dug up. I know he is particular as he long ago told me that for the 22 CCM brass he will only use Remington 22 Hornet for the parent case for what ever reasons I am not sure but he must have some. Anyway checking the 25-20 SS brass I was quite surprised to find that the parent case he has used is the 357 Max case. I was totally caught off guard with that because of all the info digging I did that case was never mentioned as the parent case to form 25-20 SS brass from. Not earth shaking information but something I thought I should share with the group here. When your learning curve is beginning to resemble a circle these little tidbits of information can be as gems extending the curve still closer to a closed circle. With mine I have to keep the gap on the top side because its still big enough for stuff to fall out, har har !!! I have dies and brass, if anyone is interested, gm545776@yahoo.com
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 16, 2022 6:49:02 GMT -7
I might be, PM me
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jun 16, 2022 12:11:27 GMT -7
Hi Daniel. Weren't there a few pieces .25-20 s.s. brass in with the box that I sent you in the deal we made a few years ago? Hopefully you can use them.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 16, 2022 13:37:30 GMT -7
Yes Sir there sure was and I am clinging to those like white on rice.
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Post by grasshopper on Jun 16, 2022 18:18:22 GMT -7
Don’t have anything new or special to add other than the fact I did actually learn something here today. I had no idea at all there was a difference between 25-20 ss brass and 25-20 eco brass!! I’m always happy learning new information!!
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 16, 2022 20:13:58 GMT -7
The 25-20 ss was the parent case for the three 22 caliber Lovell cartridges, the 22-3000 Lovell , the 22- 2-R Lovell, and the 22 maximum Lovell. Before the 222 Rem came out the bench rest guys were either shooting one of the Lovell cartridges or the 219 Donaldson wasp. The 25-20 SS was obsolete before the Lovell cartridges came out and the Lovell cartridges pretty much used up all the original brass. At sometime just post ww-2 Griffen and Howe contracted a large run of 25-20 SS and I believe that was the last commercial run of brass. That brass went fast to all the Lovell owners. I once had a 22-3000 Lovell on a Steven 44 1/2 action using a Winchester model 52 barrel topped with a 15x Unertl scope and it was a great rifle but I let it go because of the brass situation that pretty much has not changed. In its original form the 25-20 ss was a well respected BP small game and varmint round. I occasionally see a Stevens model 44 in 25-20 ss but without casting the chamber its hard to tell because Stevens chambered several 25 caliber cartridges on the model 44 and didnt really make much effort to distinguish between them stamping many with just 25 Stevens and that could have meant a rim fire or one of the several different center fires. The 25 rim fires are pretty easy to convert to center fire but the problem is that the rim fire barrels used a .251" groove diameter like the 25 acp where as the center fires used a .257" I have considered converting one to CF and chambering for the 25 acp but the problem there is that the 25 RF case was twice as long as the 25 acp so not just a simple rechamber. You would have to cut off the threads and rethread and rechamber. There would also be the issue of the forend hanger. It will have been set back by the amount the barrel was shortened so too would have to be redone. If it was a half round half octagon barrel it would no longer fit the inletting so thats another problem that all adds up to not being worth the effort.
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Post by todddoyka on Jun 17, 2022 8:09:16 GMT -7
i would luv to have a 22 2-R Lovell, but i can't afford it now. i am glad to see that someone still writes about the Lovell.
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Post by eddiesouthgate on Aug 20, 2023 16:00:22 GMT -7
Contact info for Steve Shrader ?
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 20, 2023 20:01:41 GMT -7
I believe he has retired. Its been more than three years since I last contacted him and at that time he was selling off what shelved brass he had and he told us he was done. Maybe I am wrong but that is what he told us then.
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Post by eddiesouthgate on Aug 21, 2023 7:27:56 GMT -7
Thanks.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 21, 2023 11:01:21 GMT -7
There was a guy on the assra site that was very recently selling some 25-20 ss brass
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Post by grasshopper on Aug 21, 2023 15:44:55 GMT -7
Wow! It’s great to learn those four or five boxes of vintage 25-20 ammo I’ve been packing around all these years not only have value as ammo for a rifle or pistol but now they also have maybe even more value after I get to shoot them! What a deal! Just one of the many reasons I love the people here and this site! I’m for sure not the sharpest knife in the drawer but now I know this little secret I feel really really smart! Now all I have to do is find a “test platform” in 25-20 as my pard would call it!!
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 21, 2023 15:58:14 GMT -7
Daniel, I still have that Model 92 Winchester .25-20, with ammo, brass, some bullets & the loading dies, if that would make you happy. Wow I didnt know this thread was this old ! I just saw this from Gary and know that rifle has been staying here with me for several years now. Hint hint Rob ! You can borrow it any time but it cant leave here.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Aug 21, 2023 17:32:59 GMT -7
Daniel, when I found out that new 50 round boxes of Winchester ammo was selling at a local gun shop for $65 a box, I quit shooting that rifle just for fun. If I remember correctly, there were 2 full boxes, & some of my reloaded rounds, plus quite a few empty brass. We both did ok on our deal, as I had bought the rifle in the late 1960's for less than $100.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 21, 2023 20:30:19 GMT -7
Less than a hunert !!!! Well Gary I have no regrets about what I paid for it. No shortage of ammo either. A few months ago at a gun show in Idaho I bought a bunch of different brass from an estate that was a sporting goods store. I got a bunch of 25-20, 32-20 and 218 Bee and others all at 30 cents per round. I bought everything they had in the calibers I wanted. I spent a couple thousand dollars but the current value of the brass is several times over what I paid. I am slowly selling it in loaded ammo on GB and making a tidy profit. Last week we got almost $200.00 for a box of 20 rounds of 50-70, and so it goes. It is my business to know the market and recognize opportunity and seize upon it. Some folks couldnt recognize opportunity if it hit them on the head. They always seem to have to ask someone else if its a good deal or not. By that time its already in my car.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Aug 22, 2023 8:21:58 GMT -7
Daniel, when I priced the rifle to you, & only to you at that price, it was less than it was appraised at by Rock Island Auction, on my way back home from when I visited with you, & as I probably won't have another .25-20, included everything that went with it. If someday, you sell it & make a profit on it, that is what you are in business for. I have owned many collectible guns, that I bought during the 1960's & early 1970's, before I got married, that I only kept for maybe a few months, then either sold or traded them for another one that struck my fancy at the time. I had 6 Civil War carbines, 4 .58 cal. muskets, 4 different C.W. pistols, an 1873 Winchester .44 W.C.F. military musket with triangle socket bayonet, (paid $100 for it, & sold it for $500), a museum quality .30-40 Krag, 2 M-1 Garands, 4 M-1 .30 carbines, at least 10 Lugers & P-38's, & many more. Also had some WW 2 German helmets, an Artillery Officer's flag, also, a Nazi banner that hung on walls at their big parades. It was probably triple the size of a king size bed. I have been selling stuff for the last 10 years, & while entering my latest purchase in my record book, (a Uberti 1848 Colt Dragoon, 3rd Model-round trigger guard, my wife asked me to make a list of what I currently have. I told her that I have sold over $10,000 worth of guns & old ammo in the past 5 years, but have spent almost $3,000 on new "toys". My last "old" holdouts are a Colt S.A.A. "Frontier Six Shooter" .44 W.C.F. in 5 1/2" barrel, I think, made in 1911, & my 1884 Springfield "trapdoor .45-70, made in 1887, & a U.S. Postal Meter .30 Carbine that I bought for $70 back in 1968. It is the first one that I bought, & the best condition, also the most accurate of the 4 that I've owned. I shot a groundhog from a rest, between the eyes at a witnessed 197 paces, back in 1971 using my reloaded ammo. I have had a lot of enjoyment over the years, & met many wonderful people, (including you) while having fun with my hobby.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 22, 2023 17:10:59 GMT -7
When ever I tell Tina about a gun I want to buy she sometimes gives me "THE LOOK " I always tell her it is money saved not money spent. I also tell her when we have some money to spend that it is better to spend it on something rather than spend it on nothing because one way or another it always seems to go. Seems like with the rate if inflation and no end in sight its better to invest in things rather than to keep money that rapidly shrinks from inflation but things increase in valuer for the same reason. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Post by lkydvl on Aug 22, 2023 17:38:13 GMT -7
sound financial advice
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Post by missionary on Aug 23, 2023 4:47:22 GMT -7
... And a 3rd on that !
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