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Post by Bullshop on Mar 10, 2019 20:43:43 GMT -7
I was able to steel away from filling orders long enough to spend Saturday at the Bozeman MT. gun show. At the show I met up with friend and fellow forum member Hombre. There I was welcomed by him to have a seat and share his table which I did. This gave him opportunity for some freedom to wander the show as I watched over the table as well as giving me a place to stash my junk when I went hunting for that mythical GOOD DEAL! There were many interesting deals to be made but good deals seem to be on the endangered species list. I may or may not have made a good deal but at any rate a deal I am satisfied with. I bought the rifle outright for cash at the end but we I and the seller worked on this for quite a while. I had a trade rifle with me a Winchester model 94 rifle in 25/35. The vendor was interested in the trade but since I have the 94 on our FFL books and he refused to do a paper on it the trade was off. As my departure time came to begin the 150 mile journey home I made one last attempt to purchase the rifle. The obstacle was that the vendor was asking substantially more than Tina had allotted me for the show. I remembered her telling me she had put $1,000.00 cash in an envelope that rode in an ammo can carrying ammo for the 25/35. I had told the vendor this earlier and he said he just couldn't sell it for that price. On the last attempt before heading home I brought the ammo can to him and told him that we would count the contents of the envelope together because I had not yet counted it because at that point I had not. First I started counting from my gas fund envelope that contained about $50.00 in one dollar bills. Then he noticed another envelope in the ammo can so he said count that one. We counted it together and it had $1.005.00 . I don't know what changed his mood but at that point he said he would take the $1,005.00 for the gun. He was asking half again what I paid but well we all know about gun show asking prices. I was not really trying to get him to lower his price but I was being absolutely honest about the money. Without my trade gun I was well short of what he wanted but persistence paid off. I spent the day today Sunday after finishing off existing bullet orders getting acquainted with the rifle. Its an 1886 Win light weight in 33 WCF. Its always a gamble until you try it but in this case there were no surprises. Its a nice clean rifle that has proven to function well and shoot well too. I had enough daylight to try three different loads with our .340" 200gn flat nose gas check bullet. I didn't have time for chronographing but that will come soon, Lord willing. Three different loads I tried were 20gn Alliant #410 and 45gn IMR # 7383, and 40gn IMR 4895. All loads shot well in informal shooting and all seemed quite energetic throwing great gobs of frozen goo toward Heaven on impact with the frozen backstop berm. Any of these loads would seem hunt worthy but were really only some quick test loads just to get a feel for the gun. The three powders tried cover the full range in burn rate of from very fast to mid range to very slow in rifle powders. The difference in powder burn rate was quite apparent in 100 yard POI with the faster powder printing substantially lower on target than the slower powder. Penetration into pine block was about 15" with all loads and bullet weight loss was about 50% just judging from the length of the recovered bullets. I am now satisfied that I did not get a lemon that has issues and that was todays quest. From here I will work at developing loads with our 200 gn cast bullet that mimic factory load performance with a 200gn jacketed bullet at about 2100 fps. Once I have all load data charted and am satisfied with performance we will add the 33 WCF to our list of ammo available from our shop. I tell Tina that on these purchases once I have the load data charted I can then sell the rifle and move on to something else to add to our ammo list. I remember hearing myself saying that but am having trouble imagining myself letting go of this handsome light weight fast handling ballisticaly well balanced cartridge that's easy shooing and able to cleanly handle any game opportunity the American continents north or south may offer. I think I will much prefer it becoming a part of my estate and something for someone else to worry about when I have no more worries! Attachments:
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Post by FromTheWoods on Mar 11, 2019 21:39:49 GMT -7
Sounds as if you made out just fine. Maybe Tina could mail me one of those magic envelopes for my next gun show adventure...Pull the envelope out of the box...Presto! The prize is yours!
Yes, you may just have to save that rifle for yourself. Sometimes the feel and feelings that come with certain rifles are worth changing one's plans on reselling.
Happy for you, Daniel.
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Post by missionary on Mar 12, 2019 14:24:30 GMT -7
Howdy Brother Dan Reads like a good deal on the good deal ! It blesses my heart to read this. I rejoice with you ! I am kinda fond of the old 33 Winchester. Certainly has enough power with a good heavy flat nose to do a heavy thump on whatever it wacks into. Maybe God permitting you can pop your next elk with it.
And please do continue to work up those loads. I am always looking for another reason to get ours out and try something new.
Now all you need to do soon is post a photo or dozen. I do enjoy looking at a Winchester 1886 !
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Post by todddoyka on Mar 19, 2019 18:26:58 GMT -7
nice deal!!!!
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Post by Bullshop on May 26, 2019 11:05:29 GMT -7
Having had this rifle for a few months now I have had time to learn its quirks. I have done a good bit of shooting with it with the only bullet we have had available for maybe 20 years the RCBS 33-200 FN-GC. We sell a good number of this design specifically for use in the 33 Win. Judging from sales the 33 wcf is more popular than one would think. I suppose though that some might be used for cartridges like the 338 Federal and 338-06 also very popular chamberings for all around big game use.
Anyway I just was not getting the accuracy I had hoped for with the RCBS design from this rifle. Many years ago I had temporary possession of another model 1886 in 33 wcf and it shot the rcbs bullet great.
I had been thinking about adding another 338 caliber design to our inventory but the one I wanted was designed by Walt Melander of NEI Tool-dine and unfortunately NEI has now closed its doors for business, BUMMER!!! I guess 20 years of procrastination might be a bit of overkill. Anyway a design being offered by Old West molds caught my eye as being usable not only in the 33 wcf but at 245gn well suited to other 338 caliber chamberings. This design has a very wide flat nose safe in tube fed lever actions as well as being very efficient in terminal performance, IT MAKES BIG HOLES !!!
I had the idea that a bullet with more bearing length may help with accuracy issues but this bullet too was disappointingly in-accurate. What then? The bore is very good so I doubt that is the problem. I did notice in my haste to get shooting with this rifle that the hammer spring was weak and the hammer energy low. Thinking back on some cold weather testing I did in Alaska and its affect on primer ignition I was reminded of similar accuracy issues caused by inadequate firing pin energy causing wide variations in primer ignition I recalled that when any liquid lube was present on the firing pin and spring that at -30F I would get 50% misfires and the rounds that did fire some had very long hang fires. In chronographing at this temp with lube oil on the firing pin and spring I got up to 800 fps extreme velocity spreads before I decided it might be a dangerous practice so stopped the testing.
I did find the cure for cold weather shooting was to first remove all liquid lube and re-lube with dry lube in this case molly. In addition to switching to dry lube I also changed the firing pin spring to a higher energy spring and these changes cured the cold weather shooting issue. Its kind of a bummer when trying to fill caribou tags with a Mauser 35 Whelen and when you pull the trigger you can watch the firing pin striker ever so slowly move forward and gently come to rest on the primer with no effect and is what set me in motion to solve the problem.
Now getting back to this 1886 in 33 wcf as I mentioned earlier seemed to have very sluggish hammer action. The question was then was this causing a similar issue with primer ignition as was the extreme cold weather and I now believe the answer is yes. On removal of the hammer spring what I discovered is that at some point in this rifles life the spring had broken about in the middle and had been brazed back together. The braze appears to be holding but when they re-aligned the two halves they didn't get quite the right angle to duplicate the original curve and the result was very weak hammer energy. I checked into replacing the spring but at $50.00 thought I would first try to fix the old spring. It took a couple tries to get just the right curve in the spring then re-heat treat it to the right temper but it was worth the effort. With the right bend in the spring the hammer now has an energetic snap which gave me hope.
After now running about 50 rounds through the rifle with each of the two bullet designs it seems my new hope was well founded and the informal accuracy seems to have perked up substantially. Time and more shooting will tell for sure but if the rifle continues to shoot as it did today I will be quite pleased
Oh I forgot to mention earlier that another indicator that firing pin energy was an issue was that when magnum rifle primers were used there were some misfires but when large pistol primers were used there were no misfires. I know I know I should have detected the problem right away and corrected it but I was so excited about finally getting another 1886 in 33 wcf I just wanted to shoot it. Now tell me who among us after picking up such a treasure at a gun show and getting it home is not guilty of the same thing. For me, GUILTY AS CHARGED !!! on multiple offences !
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Post by missionary on May 27, 2019 10:50:13 GMT -7
That is a happy ending ! And yes I am also guilty of not getting "things" quit right in a rifle before taking it out to fire some rounds.
I did enjoy your cold weather test with a "slow" firing pin. I once had a Marlin 336 in 32 Special back in 1968 fail to fire on a fox just 10 feet away. It had always shot fine until that very cold February morning. Needless to write that relaxed standing fox got very wide scared eyes as he noticed that the barrel was pointed at his red body. He did the fastest ski-daddle I ever saw a fox do across a frozen river bottom. A later bolt teardown showed a good coating of thick oil that worked well until 10 below... an unusual SW Michigan temperature.
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Post by Bullshop on May 27, 2019 17:57:16 GMT -7
With the freedom from work responsibilities on the holiday weekend I spent some more time with the 33 trying different powders and loads with the new to us 245gn Old West bullet. After firing about another 60 rounds today I am confident that the weak hammer spring was for sure the root of my accuracy problems. The gun is shooting good now or at least as good as I can shoot it with the buckhorn rear and bead front sights.
My groups are vertical at about 3 minutes but the vertical dispersion is in nearly a straight up and down line. I know this is dew more to my vision than to how well the gun is shooting. I just cant see the sights well enough against the target to have a consistent vertical hold. Horizontal is tight but I just cant consistently place that large bead front sight on the target vertically. So anyway 3 minutes is good with me at any range I will attempt a shot at game with this rifle 3 minutes is acceptable.
As for loads as is my usual practice I have tried powders that run nearly the full range of the burn rate charts. Burn rates from 2400 to 4831 have been tried and most gave good results. I thought I was seeing a pattern with the rifle showing a preference for powder burn rate on the slower end and still feel that when highest attainable velocities are in order the slower powders 4350 in particular get you there with good accuracy.
Today though just for the sake of trying new different things I tried a powder from the faster end of my two extreme limits. This powder Alliant Reloader # 10 will fall about between 4198 on the fast side and 3031 on the slow side. Its too fast in burn rate to get a good load density and just guessing by visual inspection I would say between 40 and 50 %. For this reason I developed the load using Styrofoam packing popcorn as a case filler.
The load is 25gn of Alliant Reloader # 10 and the remainder of the case filled with PP toped with the 245gn OW bullet and sparked by a CCI#200 LR primer. This is an easy shooting load that proved very accurate. I had my chrorno set up in the morning but the light rain forced its removal. I got to chrono a few loads but this was not one of them I am going to guess something close to 1700 fps
Now 1700 fps may sound anemic but consider this. A load chronographed with 43.5gn of IMR 7383 clocked at 1764 and 1754 for two rounds fired over the Ohler sky screens. This load with 7383 penetrated 17" end grain of dry lodge pole pine, exited, then passed through one side of a steel 50 gallon drum. The recovered bullet shows some expansion and good weight retention. If you have ever fired factory soft point ammo from cartridges like the 30-06 into dry hard wood what you get on average is 9" to 10" of penetration. The hard dry wood just tears up soft point bullets and it seems to not matter what the caliber is until bullet weight gets to about 250gn and above. 270's , 30-06, 243's all seem to get about the same penetration in dry wood. Shooting across grain is even tougher and the 1750 fps with the 245 gn bullet sailed right through about a 12" diameter piece of firewood.
Point is that the fast burn rate and reduced charge weight of the Reloader-10 powder does not relegate the load to plinking status. If it shoots through 17" hard dry wood then a steel drum there are few animals offering enough resistance to stop one.
Here is something to consider, while working as an assistant guide hunting caribou I had occasion to use a Ruger Bisley 45 Colt to stop a wounded caribou. The range was maybe 40 yards and the caribou was walking straight away. The 45 was loaded with a 300gn Saeco Keith style bullet to a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. At the shot the caribou bull crumbled. When my packer came over to help he told me he had watched the shot through his binoculars. He said that at the shot he saw the hide on the chest stretch way out then erupt into a puff of hair.
The 300gn bullet starting at only 1000 fps penetrated the full body length of the caribou bull and still had enough energy left to exit the elastic hide at the far end of its travel.
If a 300gn 45 can do that starting at 1000 fps then I believe a 245gn 33 cal bullet starting at 1700 fps will easily do the same. Just speculation of course but Lord willing maybe come November an elk may offer itself to test the theory.
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Post by missionary on May 27, 2019 18:31:59 GMT -7
I know for my hide and well being I would not want either of those slugs to smack me at any range.
I guess that is one of the joys of reloading... you just never know how any powder / bullet combination is going to work until you try.
Good to read more on the simple hammer spring fix results. Nothing like a good wallop in the rear to get things moving along.
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Post by Bullshop on May 27, 2019 18:40:43 GMT -7
"" Nothing like a good wallop in the rear to get things moving along. ""
That is the absolute truth! Until I did the cold weather testing I had never realized that the release of the latent energy of a primer is variable and dependent upon the amount of and consistency of the energy transferred to it by the firing pin.
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Post by Bullshop on May 27, 2019 18:54:11 GMT -7
"" Nothing like a good wallop in the rear to get things moving along. "" That is the absolute truth! Until I did the cold weather testing I had never realized that the release of the latent energy of a primer is variable and dependent upon the amount of and consistency of the energy transferred to it by the firing pin. This is exactly the reason I came to my conclusion about the 22 hornet and why most people find that it shoots better with small pistol primers. I wrote about this in another thread here somewhere. My reasoning is that most 22 hornet rifles are built on 22 RF actions and lack in firing pin energy to give consistent ignition with small rifle primers. When actions such as my 1898 Springfield a military action with robust firing pin energy is used the SR or SP primer difference is not an issue. A not only energetic firing pin strike but also consistent strike has so much to do with consistent accuracy. That is the reason that cleaning primer pockets between loads gives more consistent accuracy or at least more consistent ignition because the residue left in a dirty primer pocket acts as a cushion under the primer resulting in a variable firing pin energy transfer so results in inconsistent primer ignition. Little things we over look ! |
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Post by missionary on May 28, 2019 6:52:49 GMT -7
It is for sure the Hornet can be a problem sometimes. Next time north I will give Pistol primers a try. Not like there is much pressure with cast to be concerned about.
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Post by Bullshop on May 28, 2019 7:47:39 GMT -7
Pistol primers are designed with thinner cup material than rifle primers for the very reason that some rifles work at higher pressure but also most rifles have more energetic firing pin energy than do most conventional hand guns. Magnum pistol loads will run in the low 40 K chamber pressures where magnum rifles loads can run in the low 60K chamber pressure range. Military rifles of the WW-I and WW-II era generally have very robust primer energy that often times will pierce the cup material of pistol primers.
Even so pistol primers are for the most part proofed for chamber pressures slightly in excess of 40,000 psi. There is though wide variation between primer cup material between manufacturers. Some are just way tougher than others. In my experience the SP primer with the thinnest cup material and so easiest to ignite with moderate firing pin energy is the RP # 1 1/2 SP but for the same reason is also the easiest to pierce. For use in any small caliber CF rifles using small primers and having indications of weak or very low firing pin energy such as can be the case in many 22 hornet rifles for use with chamber pressures substantially reduced from max I like to use the RP # 1 1/2 SP primer. When chamber pressures approach max I go to a tougher primer such as the CCI # 400 SP and when running pressures at near max using ball powders such as H-110 I go to the CCI # 450 SPM as long as the launch platform has adequate firing pin energy to consistently ignite the thicker cup material of the magnum primer.
Add up all the little things that lead to good uniform primer ignition and you are well on the road to producing accurate ammo. Our departed friend who's knowledge on accuracy loading I admired greatly once told me "" there are three things involved in loading accurate ammo and they are ignition, ignition, and ignition""
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Post by todddoyka on May 28, 2019 12:39:52 GMT -7
I had the idea that a bullet with more bearing length may help with accuracy issues but this bullet too was disappointingly in-accurate. What then? The bore is very good so I doubt that is the problem. I did notice in my haste to get shooting with this rifle that the hammer spring was weak and the hammer energy low. Thinking back on some cold weather testing I did in Alaska and its affect on primer ignition I was reminded of similar accuracy issues caused by inadequate firing pin energy causing wide variations in primer ignition I recalled that when any liquid lube was present on the firing pin and spring that at -30F I would get 50% misfires and the rounds that did fire some had very long hang fires. In chronographing at this temp with lube oil on the firing pin and spring I got up to 800 fps extreme velocity spreads before I decided it might be a dangerous practice so stopped the testing. I did find the cure for cold weather shooting was to first remove all liquid lube and re-lube with dry lube in this case molly. In addition to switching to dry lube I also changed the firing pin spring to a higher energy spring and these changes cured the cold weather shooting issue. Its kind of a bummer when trying to fill caribou tags with a Mauser 35 Whelen and when you pull the trigger you can watch the firing pin striker ever so slowly move forward and gently come to rest on the primer with no effect and is what set me in motion to solve the problem. i had a savage pump gun in 20ga. i was one those guys too, i didn't remove the gun oil. i think i was about 16y.o.+/- and it was in January. there was about 6 "+/- of snow and the weather was sun and about -20 degrees. (boy, i was stupid!!!). there were stars out in the in the pre morning when me and my buddy trounced into the woods. when it was light enough to shoot, i was too shaky to shoot. when a 16 y.o. boy goes out to shoot some squirrels in -20 deg, theres something wrong about that boy!!! i was bundled up but the cold got to me. shivering and shaking and stammering, i was there. for 2 hours , i was only thing left alive. then all of the sudden, i see a grey squirrel come down out the tree. i pick my gun up, push off the safety and ..............slowly thunk. what?! i shuck the action, putting a fresh round in the chamber, line up the squirrel and................slowly thunk. i won't type the vulgar words i've used, but even a drill instructor won't say that!!! (i was in the US Army and the DIs' swore up a storm) back at home, when i got myself thawed out, i looked at the gun. empty of course, i rack the chamber and hear click.....i do a couple of vulgar words and rack the gun again...click. i figured out( all on my own  ) that i had too much oil in the springs and action. way too much oil. so i wipe it out, much like late cold, cold wintry squirrel season!!!
i had a firing pin break on my win m94 but that was quickly remedied. all in all, i can't really complain on my guns......except, used to be my rem m700 mountain rifle in '06. that thing was d!@#$% to h-e double hockey sticks.
4 or 5 years ago, i was browsing thru the Traders Guide, i seen a 33 win (don't remember the model) in it for $300. i should have bought it, but at the time i didn't have the money. "should've, would've, could've" is my life.  |
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Post by Bullshop on May 28, 2019 14:49:39 GMT -7
I think Marlin chambered some model 1895's in 33 wcf and I think Win besides the 1886 also chambered the 33 on the model 1885 High Wall and possibly even the 1895 but not sure on that one. Any of those four in anything like fair condition at $300.00 would be a steal.
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Post by missionary on May 29, 2019 5:35:45 GMT -7
Yea... any Model 1886 for $300 is a rare bird !!! Even the repros are double that. Just actions get sold fast for $300.
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Post by todddoyka on May 29, 2019 11:39:37 GMT -7
i'm a day late and a dollar short.
at least i gots me a '93 spanish an' '98 mauser ta belay me grief.
for the life of me, i can't remember the model. i'm thinking it was a lever action, but don't quote me on it!!! i just remember the 33 winchester and could i get reloading dies for it. i think(shouldn't do that) that the 33 win is made up of 45-70 cartridge? i don't know if it is or not. i should've have begged, borrowed and stole the money for it. but "should've, would've, could've" is my life".
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Post by Bullshop on May 29, 2019 12:24:49 GMT -7
You correctly assume that the 33 wcf is based on the 45-70 case at 2.105" length. Loading dies are available from Lee Precision so fairly inexpensive. Case forming can be done using the 33 wcf FL sizing die if done in two or more steps or if an intermediate die is used such as the 38-56 or 40-65 to start the neck down process but its faster if you have forming dies. Annealing case necks before starting the process is a must!
Many years ago I picked up a set of Lee loading dies and RCBS form trim dies at a gun shop I visited for a very good price. At the time I had no need of them but the price was right and who knows what the future holds.
The first rifle I had in 33 was another 1886 win and it had slight issue with rim thickness on the 45-70 brass I used at the time of which I can not remember the brand but likely RP as it was my preference at the time. The rims were thick enough that they caused tight chambering and I felt undo stress on the lever getting the locking lugs fully engaged.
At the time I discovered that Star-Line 40-65 brass had thinner rims than what I had been using and that did solve the problem. Currently I am using Star-Line 45-70 brass and there is no problem closing the action but they are snug with zero excess headspace a perfect fit to be sure.
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) that i had too much oil in the springs and action. way too much oil. so i wipe it out, much like late cold, cold wintry squirrel season!!!