|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 16, 2019 16:08:54 GMT -7
Wanting to work up a bear worthy load for the 45 ACP.
BuffaloBore has their "Outdoorsman" load that pushes a hardcast 255gn bullet at an advertised 925 FPS.
I've worked with the Lyman 454190 in the 45 ACP since it feeds very nicely and the bullet contour fits 1911 magazines very well. Using bluedot I was able to get this bullet to almost 1100 FPS. I expect this bullet would penetrate well, but I know from personal experience that it tends to just poke a hole in and out.
Thinking im gonna work with bullets in the 230-250gn range, and try to find out that will feed reliably from my 1911s, but still have enough meplate to displace a fair amount of tissue and create a good permanent wound channel. I'm also thinking a non expanding bullet may be better for this project, since it will hopefully penetrate better, and a 45 with a large flat nose should still make a pretty good wound channel.
I'll keep this thread updated with my testings and findings.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hombre on Jan 17, 2019 10:25:57 GMT -7
Many are the thoughts on what handgun cartridge would be a good one for bear defense?
The bigger the bore the better seems to be a good choice.
Here's an interesting watch showing what a bear can do and their speed.
go to youtube and enter: SOW DEFENDS CUB! CRAZY BLACK BEAR FOOTAGE CAPTURED!
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 17, 2019 14:42:34 GMT -7
45 ACP probably wouldn't be my first choice for a bear round, but its better then nothing. Figured it doesn't hurt to have a mag full of bear loads for my carry gun, maybe even the spare mag I carry on my belt.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 17, 2019 17:59:24 GMT -7
When I was much younger an acquaintance speaking from experience told me that the average black bear is on average the same size as the average man at perhaps 175 to 200 pounds. In the years since I have gained some experience of my own in the taking of black bears and always remembering what that man told me so making mental note on each kill I long ago came to concur with his assessment.
Stay with me now as I am trying to make a point related to your questioning. 175 to 200 pounds has proven to be average but there have been a few above average to as much as 600 pounds just as there are people.
My point is that for defense loads for those above average bad guys the bear loads may be as appropriate in the city as they would be in the woods.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 17, 2019 19:40:55 GMT -7
Most factory self defense loads are a lot of hype that are designed to look good. I've tested quite a few, and only a couple actually perform well.
I like loads that will meet the FBI protocals for a carry load, which is minimum of 12" but not more then 18" of penetration into calibrated ballistic gel. They also shoot through a few different barriers, including sheet metal and glass, and the loads still must penetrate a minimum of 12"
In 45, the Hornady Critical duty load has held up to every test I've put it through and is what I carry in my 45s.
There are also some big name brand rounds though, such as the Sig Vcrown, that just don't work. The bullets either do not expand, or when they doze they break apart.
Anyway, 12" of penetration on even a big 2 legged critter is quite a bit. One thing about self defense in a human shooting scenario is worry of over penetration. Tou shoot through a bad guy, and hit a pregnant lady behind him, you are going to be held accountable for it.
As for the average black bear, a standard 45 defense load would probably work fine, but there are some Grizzlies around here. I also think that you can say from experience that no matter what fun you have in your hand, its gonna feel small when facing down a charging bear.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 18, 2019 9:41:25 GMT -7
You probably remember hearing about the one bear I had to stop at close quarters with a hand gun. It was very close at maybe three times its body length and by its actions made it very clear that one of us was to die. I had a Ruger Red Hawk 5" 44 mag loaded with the 250gn Keith on 22gn 2400. I got the job done with a single action first shot followed by three more quick double action shots.
No question the 44 was adequate and I believe the first shot to the head did it but I was not going to wait to find out if the bear was still moving from the effects of gravity on the steep slope or under its own power thus the three fast double action follow up shots. When the effects of gravity were halted by a very large 6' diameter tree I had just felled it was obvious that the bear was no longer moving of its own power.
You are right in that at that moment the 44 felt kind of smallish and shortly after that experience I got a 454 Casull. Being a big fan of the original 45-70 load with a 405gn bullet at 1300 fps I developed a load for the 454 that delivered 1330 fps with a 400gn bullet. I had confidence in that load as it was accurate and its penetration was greater than some well respected rifle loads such as the 30-06 180gn.
With this I went merrily on my way making logs of trees until one day on a break I decided to shoot the 454 a bit. To my horror I found that the Freedom Arms revolver would not function. Because those early FA revolvers were made with such tight tolerances to handle the pressures of the factory ammo of 60,000 psi at that time they would jam up from any small amount of debris that found its way into the action from daily carry in the field.
After that experience I went back to the loosie goosy in comparison Ruger in 45 Colt. With that Ruger 45 using it as my daily carry gun guiding for caribou I used it to stop a very badly wounded caribou that was walking straight away at about 75 yards. The load I was using had a fairly hard Saeco Keith type bullet of 300 gn chugging out the muzzle at 1000 fps. The single shot fired at the departing caribou entered the rear end and exited the chest dropping the bull instantly. Before the shot I had noticed my packer glassing the caribou from about 200 yards and in later chatting about that shot he told me he saw the hide on the chest stretch way out then a puff of hair. That 300gn bullet starting out at a mere 1000 fps MV completely penetrated the body length of the large bull and still had enough energy to overcome the elastic effect of the hide to exit.
That is the gun I still have today and even though I am no longer an Alaskan timber faller still have every confidence that the load and arm will perform in any like situation. I no longer regularly shoot the hot type loads in the Ruger 45 Colt but do still shoot it often with 250 to 260gn cast bullets with a charge of 5.8gn of Trail Boss for a nicely accurate very pleasant shooting load. Even so a little digging through my stash of 45 Colt ammo will most certainly turn up some of the bear bashing ammo just because well you never know!
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 19, 2019 15:39:33 GMT -7
I'm thinking that if I can come close to duplicating original 45 colt load I would be standing pretty good with the 45 ACP
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 19, 2019 19:10:06 GMT -7
That would be about 850 to 900 fps with a 250gn bullet. The Lyman 454190 should feed well due to its small meplate and shoulderless ogive.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 20, 2019 18:55:29 GMT -7
I've shot the 454190 in the 1911 and a FNX 45 in the past with good results and some impressive speeds, but am thinking something with a bit more meplate may be a good idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Jan 20, 2019 21:33:02 GMT -7
I think the Lee 250 RF has the same shoulder less design but much larger meplate.
|
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Jan 20, 2019 21:55:46 GMT -7
That may be up the alley. I'm busy playing with the 44 mag now so this project has been put on a back burner.
|
|
|
|
Post by StrawHat on Apr 18, 2024 3:32:50 GMT -7
Old thread but where are you with the ACP?
Kevin
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Apr 18, 2024 7:20:22 GMT -7
We just got a vintage Cramer mold for a 250 grain plain base round nose with crimp groove. The crimp groove is located so that the nose portion of the bullet extending past the case mouth is quite short. When seated to the crimp groove it stays within max cartridge length for the 45 acp. I tried it in 45 acp ammo but I fired them in a revolver not an auto. Accuracy was good. I also tried them in 45 Colt Ruger BH with 5" barrel and accuracy was very good. I like this new old bullet. It has a sort of stubby appearance when loaded in 45 Colt cases but since the bulk of the bullet is full caliber bearing surface it should prove accurate in any 45 caliber revolver or auto. In 45 Colt cases 5.5 grain of Hodgdons American Select is the load.
|
|
|
|
Post by StrawHat on Apr 18, 2024 18:46:13 GMT -7
Somewhere I have a magazine article on “Buffalo Stomper Loads for the 45 ACP”. If/when I find it, I will let you know. Loads up to 300 grains from the 1911.
Kevin
|
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Apr 18, 2024 20:54:34 GMT -7
I have loaded 300 grain bullets in 45 acp cases but they were not for use in an auto loader. They were for a dual cylinder Ruger revolver with 45 acp and 45 Colt cylinder. I wanted to see if I could get the acp to shoot Colt loads. What I was doing is loading heavy SWC bullets to very nearly the same length as in the 45 Colt but in 45 acp cases. When both are loaded to the same length with the same bullet they are both capable of about the same velocity using the same load.
It made for a very long 45 acp cartridge that will only work in a revolver but they did work good. The one issue was that some of the lube grooves were outside the case so not a very good general purpose load. It did answer the question I was asking myself of weather it could be done and the answer was yes. In loading this way the extended bullets had to be sized to cylinder throat diameter or slightly under so the cartridges would load easily into the chambers without having to press them in with a thumb. Normally I like my bullet diameter to be .001" over cylinder throat diameter.
|
|
