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Post by Bullshop on Sept 29, 2018 8:30:23 GMT -7
This year for dear and elk hunting like each that has come before for a surety I will not know until I head out the door to go hunt. Oh sure I have decided several times since spring until now and each time for different reasons my mind has changed. I always seem to start out with the idea that it will be old B00 my Marlin 45-70 just out of familiarity and dependability but then things like acquiring a new rifle or new mold in something seemingly perfect seems to tweak my thought pattern to dwell in other day dreams.
This year has been no different starting out early on with the acquisition of an Husqvarna rolling block chambered in 8x58RD. This handsome well built rifle captured my full focus and attention for a couple months and in that time I developed a respectable amount of load data for several different weights of our cast bullets always with the secondary idea or intent of hunting with it. Just when I had decided this would surely be THE ONE this year shooting what I settled on as a favorite load shooting a 200gn bullet at 2000 fps and regulating perfectly to the sights at 100 yards.
That was it a done deal and decision made until a lovely little 1869 Trapdoor carbine in 50-70 came to stay with me for a time. This is not an original carbine but is a cut down rifle but none the less a handy size hunting rifle that is satisfyingly accurate. So then the process begins anew with load development accuracy testing and sight adjusting to ready this THE ONE for this years hunt. This handy little light weight fast handling carbine has shown me that it has a thing for a Rapine 450gn bullet at .515" diameter at a BHN-9 with our NASA lube and a duplexed load using KIK FFG powder.
So that was for sure going to be THE ONE until a friend showed up at my place this summer with a treasure chest with my name on it yes literally with my name on it as he had picked up these treasures some months earlier at a gun show with me in mind but it took the several months for us to connect. We had a nice visit as he unveiled the treasure trove. In it were 6 never used NEI molds in the original green and yellow boxes from the original location that Walt started the business in Elpaso Texas. These were all appealing to me not only because they were new unused molds from a company that I liked very much and have done much business and is now out of business but also the fact the each design was for something that would be a welcome addition to our bullet design inventory a boon to business for sure.
However none of these welcomed treasures had any effect on the decision I had earlier made that the 50-70 carbine would be the rifle put to use this year, none of them. Buuuuut there was still something in that chest that did have exactly that effect. It was a Tom Ballard adjustable weight for a smooth sided tapered cup base paper patch design dropping a bullet with a .366" base diameter. Now this to me was truly a treasure for more than one reason. One is that I have known Tom Ballard for nearly 40 years and already have several of his molds each being a treasure itself. Tom is a relative neighbor by Montana standards living in Clancy about 125 miles north of me. Tom is now well into his ninth decade and hearing from a friend that recently visited Tom he too is no longer making molds. This mold is intended to make paper patch bullets for 37 and 38 caliber rifles and is something that has been on my must acquire list for a long time. I have patched our 286gn 9.3mm grooved bullet up for use in my 375 Whelen and it works great but I still have for quite some time desired a bonified paper patch bullet design in that caliber and this was it.
Now I am sure you can guess where this is leading and you dear reader are absolutely correct. The acquisition of this gem of a mold once again set things into motion with the intent of this being the one as to the bullet I would use for this years hunting. With a decision change in caliber of necessity there must also be a change in decision of rifle so here we find ourselves once again in the decision making process as to what rifle will be employed. This situation now is compounded by the fact that we have available two different rifles chambered in 375 Whelen one a handy fast handling iron sighted carbine ( there's that again) and the other a long barreled scoped rifle. Oh what a quandary!
This has totally upset the cart again in deciding exactly what THE ONE will be this year but thankfully it happened early enough on that I had time to develop good load for this bullet in both rifles. This will simplify the decision making somewhat to perhaps being what the weather looks like when I am leaving to go hunt. As I said earlier I likely wont know for sure until I am heading out the door. One thing for sure though one of these two rifle for sure will be THE ONE this year, well unless ah I guess you can figure that out !
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 1, 2018 13:37:33 GMT -7
i'm going to use two rifles. they are both tc encore's and 23" MGM heavy factory barrels. they are the 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and 16.5gr of hs-6 and the 444 marlin with 25.0gr of 2400 with a tuft of dacron. it will be my deer/black bear "slayer". next year i will my husky m46 in 9.3x57 and some boolits(270-280gr fn gc) and find a good load for it, 1800fps+/-. i already did a 285gr prvi rn and imr4895(40.0 - 45.0gr)just to check pressure(ok). i still have to take her to my gunsmith to d&t scope mount, put a 2 position safety and move the bolt handle to clear the scope. after that, then i'll find the load. maybe i'll restock it, but i'm not sure. www.simpsonltd.com/products/z24767left is i took an 8x57 prvi and made it a 9.3x57, right is fireformed
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 1, 2018 15:48:48 GMT -7
The 9.3x57 is interesting. I once had a 9x57 that had a .358" groove barrel and after thorough testing found that ballisticly it performed right between the 358 Winchester and the 35 Whelen right where you would expect it to be.
Long ago I read that after ww2 German citizens could not possess any firearms in military chamberings so many of the 8x57 milsurp rifles were bored out to 9mm and 9.3mm.
Since I already had a 358 and a 35 Whelen I re-barreled the 9x57 to a 25x284 because I picked up a $50.00 barrel in that caliber. After wringing out the 25x284 I found that what I had was a short fat version of a 25-06 but with harder to find and more expensive brass. I have been looking for another barrel for that Mauser and just picked up a 30" Palma barrel chambered in 30-06 Ackley. Since I have been running a 190gn flat base 6-s ogive .308" bullets through my old Corbin equipment I will soon be giving that looooong barreled 06 Ackley a run and see what I can make it do.
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Post by missionary on Oct 2, 2018 10:57:26 GMT -7
Greetings Well this being ILLinois we are somewhat cast aside from all practical thinking or freedom. If a center fire was "allowed" it would be a tough choice Was just out to the range today to fire for my first time a German single shot break open that is chambered in a 7.9 cartridge that is a 303 with the shoulder set back giving it a longer neck very cast slug friendly. Or a 1894 Kraig with a real .308 groove that throws the 220 RNGC slugs nicely. Or a …… But alas I waste time dreaming. So in reality it will be a 1826 made Hall Flintlock caliber .54 that will go swamp hunting with me. The intended rifle is the bottom of the two Hall's. Happily bow season is already open but until the corn gets harvested the corn crunchers are happy to stay out there safe and well fed.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 2, 2018 19:33:27 GMT -7
Wow that Hall flintlock is also a very interesting rifle that certainly adds some spice to the hunt. So is that smooth or rifled? If rifled most likely a very gentle twist for patched ball. However primitive I still prefer a rifle any rifle to shooting sticks at them. No offence to you bow hunters just that I am a rifleman.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 2, 2018 19:35:20 GMT -7
i'm going to use two rifles. they are both tc encore's and 23" MGM heavy factory barrels. they are the 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and 16.5gr of hs-6 and the 444 marlin with 25.0gr of 2400 with a tuft of dacron. it will be my deer/black bear "slayer". next year i will my husky m46 in 9.3x57 and some boolits(270-280gr fn gc) and find a good load for it, 1800fps+/-. i already did a 285gr prvi rn and imr4895(40.0 - 45.0gr)just to check pressure(ok). i still have to take her to my gunsmith to d&t scope mount, put a 2 position safety and move the bolt handle to clear the scope. after that, then i'll find the load. maybe i'll restock it, but i'm not sure. www.simpsonltd.com/products/z24767left is i took an 8x57 prvi and made it a 9.3x57, right is fireformed So Tod I meant to ask what twist did you go with on that 444?
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 2, 2018 20:21:55 GMT -7
i use a 1 in 20" twist.
the 300gr saeco fn you have provided is a great shooter!!! i used 10 shots supported by a primos bipod and they went 2.543" at 100 yards. 5 shots supported by primos bipod they go .864" at 100 yards. 3 shots supported by primos bipod they go .432" at 100 yards. i shot the group because i wanted the barrel to be hot, but the barrel was only luke-warm after the 10th shot. needless to say, 2400 is a good powder.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2018 7:28:34 GMT -7
I always got good results from that shoulder-less Saco design too. The shoulder-less design feeds really well in Marlin lever actions. It comes in two weights 265gn for the older slow twist rifles and 300gn for the newer faster twist rifles. Some people have claimed that the 300gn shoots well for them in the slower twist barrels but I never got it to shoot as good as the 265gn in those barrels. 265gn was the bullet weight originally offered in factory 444 Marlin ammo.
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 3, 2018 13:12:59 GMT -7
in my 1 in 20" 444 marlin barrel, i've shot a 265gr hornady fn and it was accurate, never shot a deer with it. i also shoot a 230gr wc, 250gr mihek hp, 255gr keith, 275gr ranch dog and 280gr wfn/lfn gc boolits. every one of them were accurate too. i was using trail boss, unique, 2400, h4198 and rel 7. accurate to me is 3 shots, under 1" at 100 yards/benched. i have killed deer with the 275gr rd and the 280gr lfn gc. also, i don't like recoil!!!!a 30-06 with a 180gr factory round is about it for me!!! i used to stand recoil, but ever since my stroke i don't like it. this is coming from a guy that used to a 460 weatherby mag recoil was "stout but manageable" while smiling!!!! i am a wuss when it comes to recoil. thats why i like my loads to be mild. 1800fps with my 30-40 krag and 165gr rd is about all i need to do. its a real speeder, that one!!!! i still have chrony it yet, but the 300gr saeco(444 marlin) will go approx. 1600+/-fps. thats plenty enuff for the deer i have shoot.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2018 15:13:39 GMT -7
Your 44/300 at 1600 fps way out classes the original 44-40 200 at 1300 fps and that old BP 44-40 load has racked up a goodly pile of game. About 15 years ago in the mountains of SW Montana I stumbled onto one of the logging sites logging mine timbers for Marcus Daily the copper king of Anaconda MT. I found to sets of narrow gauge RR rails with dirt trail on each side for mule teams. I went back some time later with a metal detector and found a few treasures. One is a copper pendent that say's " Anaconda the capital of MT " Well Anaconda has never been the capital of MT but was the base of operations for M. D. copper kingdom. Politics never change ! At one of the cabin sites under worn out cross cut saw blades and broken whisky bottles I found a gold cufflink with a date of 1884 inside. The coolest things I found though were on opposite sides of a natural mineral lick. I jumped a small herd of elk as I entered the mineral lick and going around it with the metal detector I first found an old badly corroded empty 44-40 case. On the opposite side about maybe 30 yards away I found a moderately expanded 44-40 bullet. My guess was that long ago someone shot an elk there with that 44-40 and the bullet passed through but just barely. Kind of a cool find!
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Post by missionary on Oct 3, 2018 15:48:07 GMT -7
The Hall is rifled. I am pretty sure it is a gain twist ending at about 1-60. It will shoot ! Had it out last time north here and it will have no issues popping corn crunchers at 80 yards. But realisticly where I hunt 33 yards is the longest shot I have taken.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2018 18:00:13 GMT -7
Sounds like in spite of your state laws you have no handicap at all. Where I live my house is at the junction of three different game management units. Each GMU has its own rules/laws as to dates , species, and sex of animals as well as antler restrictions. Right at the junction divided by I-15 a couple years ago an elk herd crossed the highway on some state land and it set up an insane cross fire that luckily got no people killed but took f&g several days to clean up the mess of wounded animals. This year for the first time that state land is ML only. For that reason Tina bought me a TC Encore 209x50 but so far I am unable to get it to shoot even reasonably well with full caliber conicals. My research has shown that this rifle is built for sabots with short hand gun bullets but I have not yet tried them. The only other ML I have is a single barrel 12 bore which with patched ball shoots better at 50 yards than what I am able to get with the TC-50. I would much prefer to trade the TC for a more conventional cap lock rifle which would please me greatly if it were a 45 caliber with fast twist to handle 500gn ish bullets.
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Post by missionary on Oct 4, 2018 10:21:00 GMT -7
Makes me wonder why a manufacturer goes out on a rabbit trail with a design that could easily fall into a nitch that few want to dive into. Seems every month at the other site two or more Encore barrels show up for sale like yours. If ILLinois ever goes center fire we have all sorts of nice old military rifles to go hunting with. Been out shooting a Ballard in 50-100 with 385 grainers that would be a joy to use out to 200 yards on cross sticks. But the river bottoms is where I feel at home. All sorts of old carbines in caliber 38 up to 54 would get used real fast. Had a 44 Frank Wesson out yesterday looking for a ground hog to pop. Why I would even consider a Burnside carbine as ILLinois does rightfully call it a case loaded carbine... but percussion ignition.
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 4, 2018 13:24:53 GMT -7
i have a tc encore in 50cal and it shoot a maxiball with 80gr of goex ffg. while i don't consider it accurate at 100 yards, it is around 3 -4" groups(3 shots/primos bipod, open sights). it is good enuff for me if go early mz season. PA season permits a capped mz early season, while flintlock mz is a late season(which i love). i've been "thinking" that i need a new flintlock mz, www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com/southern-rifle. but thats aways away. i bought my 500L because it does what the old 50-70 gov does. it kills game with authority!!! i won't mention the fact but the 50-70 spr armory m1866 is above my pay range.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 4, 2018 14:29:09 GMT -7
My 209x50 is stamped magnum if that makes any difference. Shooting our copy of the white super slug a 460gn bullet cast in pure lead my TC is doing good to stay in 8" at 100 yards. This shooting 80gn KIK FFG powder. In my barrel a .501" diameter is as large as will easily seat in a clean bore.
BTW that 1869 50-70 TD in picked up this past spring I got for $380.00. The seller said the bore condition was poor but I thought it would clean up to fair. I was wrong as it cleaned up to very good. There was a lot of aged hard fouling. It cleaned up nice with a bit of Armstrong cleaner and now slugs at .515".
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 6, 2018 12:10:34 GMT -7
i can never find guns that are priced low. the best price for a 50-70gov (springfield armory breech block) was around $1100. MGM does a 500L for around $360 - 375(i can't remember?).
i tried to do patched round ball in my encore, but it was at best 3 or 4" at 50 yards. powerbelts and encore's is the combination, but they get expensive to shoot!!!!
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Post by missionary on Oct 7, 2018 10:20:07 GMT -7
I would think that Ballistic Products INC would have a proper size "cup" that you could buy bulk saving a few $$$$'s.
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 8, 2018 12:10:40 GMT -7
shop.cva.com/PowerBelt/PowerBelt_Copper.aspthe base of the powerbelt bullet has a "tit" on it. the cup is pointed down, instead of of the way you cup sabots. the big diffence when shooting powerbelts and sabots is the cleanness of your barrel. sabots go thru 2 or 3 shots then you have to clean the barrel from plastic. powerbelts go around 12 -13 times before you clean. i can't remember how many how many deer me and boy killed with powerbelts bullets, but it got expensive. it was $20 per 15 or 20 bullets. i don't the cost now.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 18, 2018 15:12:15 GMT -7
Season opens Saturday !!! BOO my Marlin 45-70 and trusted friend that has pulled me through a few close calls is packed and Lord willing we will head out tomorrow. Gun and gear are packed for an extended wilderness stay. I am maybe getting too old for this type of hunting especially as I hunt alone and I have been thinking/feeling like this might be my last such hunt. It is for this reason that I have chosen BOO this year coupled also with bullets from the first mold I ever bought the RCBS 45-400 FN-GC. This bullet with the load that brought me through 20 years of subsistence living in the Alaskan interior produces 1850 fps from the muzzle of my 20" barreled Marlin.
This load has proven tremendously effective on game pushing 2000 pounds live weight in large Alaskan bull moose to 150 pound WT deer. Even with a non expanding BHN-20 bullet hardness the fairly wide meplate coupled with enough weight to maintain its momentum in terminal penetration produces very large permanent wound channels very deep or completely through most game. Not only does it perform terminally but my rifle shoots this bullet extremely well and with the custom cam adjusted receiver sight on it can be counted on to place shots very precisely to 200 yards as long as I call the range correctly. The range finder will stay home this year and I will hunt as I did as a young man. Possibly the last serious hunt together for me and old BOO I want to enjoy the memories we have together while out alone together making new ones in one of the last wild places we are able to access. This year elk or no elk just being there with BOO is going to be the topper for an incredible life of living, working, and hunting in places few eyes will ever see. I thank God for this life because he created me the person that could live it and love it and it has always been and will always be the desire of my heart. Praise God! Good luck everyone!!! Please let us know how your hunt went!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 21, 2018 16:16:17 GMT -7
After a couple days in the mountains and weather that is just too hot for elk to move I decided to come home and try again Lord willing after the weather cools down. There was just nothing happening no shots being heard and even with very clear moon lit nights no wolves howling. Every time I have taken elk in this area there were wolves howling at night but this time the night was all quiet accept for a mouse scratching or chewing and keeping me awake. This time and the only time I remembered to bring a camera so I got some pictures of the cabin and hunting area. The large panoramic view with the rotting log to the immediate right is from the spot where I sit to glass. Last years elk came from the aspens in the right foreground about 50 yards from my hide. Hope you all enjoy these pictures of my back yard. Click on the picture to enlarge Attachments:
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 21, 2018 16:33:15 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 21, 2018 16:47:54 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 21, 2018 16:51:16 GMT -7
more Attachments:
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 21, 2018 19:37:33 GMT -7
nice pix!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by missionary on Oct 22, 2018 0:54:05 GMT -7
Good morning Thank you for those beautiful views from your area. Would be a fine week to have a good horse and cover that ground with hoof prints.
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