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Post by milsurpshooter on Nov 25, 2017 14:45:22 GMT -7
I was recently invited by a gentlemen who goes by the name Bullet Man Dan. The "Man" supplied me with some cast 0.515 bullets for a newly acquired BP cartridge rifle. I'm still somewhat new to BP cartridge reloading, although I've been reloading for some time now (and muzzleloading most of my life). Interested in doing some reading and learning the trade. Glad to be here, lucky to be here.
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Post by missionary on Nov 26, 2017 3:32:20 GMT -7
Good morning
Welcome to this fine little gathering place. I am going to guess and write those .515's are getting stuffed into a 50-70. Fine old caliber to be chunking lead from. We have several Trapdoors and a Roller in caliber 50. But I recon your rifle could be a 50-90.
After you have been here a bit you will notice during winter prep / hunting time there is not much activity about. I look in here once a day but as was yesterday moved along came in from getting some brush chopped and did not get much else done.
Milsurps (primarily U.S.of A.) are high on my list. My dad was a caliber .69 shooter and got me interested when you could buy the clunkers from the back covers of comic books. No regrets though as they are fun to get out and keep the barrels warm.
But we will do our best to help you get headed along firing that caliber 50 and hitting where the sights are pointing.
Mike in Peru
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Post by milsurpshooter on Nov 26, 2017 4:57:14 GMT -7
I am going to guess and write those .515's are getting stuffed into a 50-70. Correct, a M1871 Springfield rolling block. I'm not hunting with it but rather enjoying some range time. - milsurpshooter |
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Post by Bullshop on Nov 26, 2017 9:37:03 GMT -7
G'Day Sir milsurpshooter and welcome! I like that handle, milsurpshooter. I too am afflicted with an undeniable and irresistible weakness for milsurps. A couple current favorites are an 1884 TD 45-70 and an 1898 Krag. My all time fascination with shooting ever since meeting Harvey Donaldson and witnessing him shoot a chuck at 400 yards with a then wildcat 22-250 when I was a kid is long range. My two old milsurp rifles allow me to indulge my passion in vintage style with very respectable and rewarding performance.
I have a little experience with the 50-70 having have had use of an original Sharps conversion carbine and at TD carbine for a time. I took an elk with the Sharps but I didn't have the TD long enough to gain much experience with it. I traded the TD for and 1888 Rem double converted to 45-70 that eventually was sold to a PH from Johannesburg South Africa.
Anyhoo welcome and if you have any questions just ask and expect to receive help from the fine members of this small but friendly group of very experienced and knowledgeable shooters.
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Post by missionary on Nov 26, 2017 11:59:08 GMT -7
Hello again Milsurpshooter
Tell us about that flinter !
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Post by milsurpshooter on Nov 26, 2017 17:15:00 GMT -7
Tell us about that flinter ! It's my first and only flintlock, an original Harpers Ferry M1816 Type 2 (dated 1827). It is a rescue that I took a chance on and found to be very mechanically sound (the lock internals looked brand new even though the outside had rusted). The rust was past the patina stage and just shy of orange peel. Some would argue against a "restoration", and I can understand their point, but now it's fully functional and can be fully enjoyed. I built a stand and "proofed" up to 90g F but only shoot it now at 40-50g F. I've since put about 40-50 rounds thru it. |
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Post by Bullshop on Nov 26, 2017 17:37:33 GMT -7
I admit ignorance to old ML arms so have to ask, what caliber and is it smooth or rifled?
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Post by milsurpshooter on Nov 26, 2017 17:59:39 GMT -7
It's a .69 cal smoothbore. I've been using unpatched .678 round balls from Track of the Wolf.
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Post by missionary on Nov 27, 2017 6:24:30 GMT -7
Sounds like a good combination. You can hunt any critter this side of the world with that and not be concerned about being "under gunned". Dad and his Navy buddy used 69's at "turkey shoots in the mid 1950"s - 60 in SW Michigan. No idea if they won any shoots as I was 5-10 and running all over looking at everything.
Have you tried any shot loads ? We use our smoothies for crow hunting also when we are up north in ILLinois.
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Post by Bullshop on Nov 27, 2017 7:31:57 GMT -7
Unpatched ball ? Again my ignorance will show but I never heard of shooting an unpatched ball. At present I have only one muzzle loading arm and that is an Italian made single barreled percussion fouler. Someone before I acquired it had installed rifle sights on it and all I have ever shot from it is patched ball. To 50 yards it seems to do quite well accuracy wise. I like the fact that any lead or lead alloy can be used in it not like the very soft lead required for rifled barrels.
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Post by milsurpshooter on Nov 27, 2017 16:40:36 GMT -7
I believe the military cartridges of the day were paper and that was torn from the projectile before it was rammed home. After the first shot or two, there's not much wiggle room from the fouling.
Plus, at 191 years old, I'm only looking for the experience and not necessarily accuracy.
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Post by missionary on Nov 27, 2017 19:05:28 GMT -7
Milsurp is correct on that info. As the paper wrapped ball was inserted and rammed down the paper would bunch some and shove some fouling down the barrel. When fired the wad would get compressed even more filling the bore and scrape out more fouling. With each round the fouling tended to not build real fast. But inferior grades of powder fouled faster. That was one of the reasons muskets were supplied with steel ramrods. It was sometimes necessary to use hard pressure to load the next cartridge. If time or need arose a barrel could be "flushed" out with the canteen and swabbed to restore cartridge load ability. But by then the bayonet was many time put into use.
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Post by Bullshop on Nov 28, 2017 9:00:30 GMT -7
Being a bullet man my thoughts always go to lube or lack of and its effect in the barrel. My first thought after reading " unpatched ball " was will that cause leading. This is a subject I have never pondered before if a smooth bore barrel can lead and what effect it will have if it does.
Now these thoughts are flooding in and swirling around and making me dizzy.
I do understand the simple pleasure of just shooting vintage arms for the hands on experience of " WHAT WAS IT LIKE " but when accuracy also avails itself in the process it just makes the experience more rewarding.
Yours is the oldest gun I have ever heard of anyone actually shooting and not just relegated to a wall hanger. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by missionary on Nov 30, 2017 16:03:36 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
Yes unpatched RB will lead in a barrel. But the little I have looked into it is that the first shot in a clean barrel will vary as to the amount of residue oil that still remains after cleaning before dumping powder.
Also how much undersized is the ball. I think the more the ball bounces back and forth in the barrel it must shed more lead.
Then barrel smoothness or roughness... Less friction or very raspy.
On the good side RB can be dip lubed before loading. Even just rubbing the ball with lube on the fingers works well.
After the first shot fouling may help decrease leading. Fouling builds up until it reaches ball diameter. Then as each ball is loaded the ball will attempt to "scrape" the fouling back to ball diameter. Depending on the BP grain size (F fouling the worse) and quality (Swiss and OLd Eynsford foul less) this is also a variable how fast the barrel clogs up until ramming another ball becomes real tough without swabbing.
RB leading shows up real fast with smokeless on shotguns. But then pressures are different and there is little to no fouling aiding in keeping the lead from scooting along the steel barrel.
Me I patch. There is a lot of evidence that smoothbores were patched if time was available. There were battles where it made little difference as the opposing forces were close and volume of fire was more important than accuracy.
Old guns.. There are some fellers about who disdain owning a firearm if it cannot be fired. I know of a 1819 Hall Flintlock that has been fired numerous times and goes corn cruncher hunting. A caliber .80 Flintlock made about 1780 was last fired about ten years ago but will go out again if the crows are flying.
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Post by Bullshop on Nov 30, 2017 18:06:30 GMT -7
80 caliber !!! Mama-mia !
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Post by missionary on Dec 1, 2017 5:59:59 GMT -7
That .80 really is not that large. There were what were called "wall guns". Those were used on the ramparts or walls of forts. 6 foot barrels to reach way out and 1 inch bores were not uncommon. Heavy so recoil was not terrible. Two good handfuls of swan shot on top of 200 grains of BP. Or a couple round balls as the conditions needed to be dealt with. Tribes learned real fast not to approach the walls in mass or in daylight.
Then there were the "flock guns". But those were mounted in river craft to fill the market needs of the cities.
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Post by milsurpshooter on Dec 8, 2017 19:34:25 GMT -7
Then there were the "flock guns". But those were mounted in river craft to fill the market needs of the cities. I belive those were called "punt" guns. And yes, I do lube each ball but don't patch the M1816. Even so, still accurate enough to hit a torso-sized target out to 25 yards or so. BTW, the M1816 was loaded when I got it (no projectile, but the crusty powder would still flame up after scraping it out). |
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Post by missionary on Dec 9, 2017 4:00:59 GMT -7
Good morning
Recently on GB a 6 gauge (.92) flinter was sold. Was a Belgium smoothbore made for distribution primarily in African countries where muzzle loaders are viewed as OK to posses. I think Stoeger was the importer Back in the 70,s. That bore with RB would put a bug hole through most any creature.. even a run away Datsun.
Here in Peru it would have to have all the permits as does a 308 CZ bolt 98 rifle.
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Post by Hombre on Dec 21, 2017 22:27:25 GMT -7
My experience with muscle loading rifles using a patched ball n' black powder is of a lesser degree than many regulars at the Forum here, but when had taken a new to me .50 caliber half stock plains rifle (see pictures) up into the hills, with the hunting pouch n' possibles in that pouch, they included round balls and pillow ticking, that I was told had been used by the previous owner/maker. I had obtained the 24" 1 1/8th inch across the flats rifle n' possibles from the widow. This was a custom/museum copy (not sure which museum) plains rifle that had been made in the mid-1970's, a percussion lock style. Well, there I am atop the Continental Divide here in Montana where I often venture out for some lead slinging. I cleared the nipple by firing a percussion cap (no powder loaded) and set the rifle aside for awhile, tending to other matters n' irons that I had along with me. Loaded the barrel and all set to finish loading I put the pillow ticking/patch material over the muzzle, placed a .50 cal round ball from the hunting pouch atop the muzzle, took hold of the short starter and could not get the patched ball to seat into the bore! YIKES I then tried pounding it into the muzzle - again, it would not fit. grrr Here I was with 60 gr of FFg down the barrel and the patched ball would not enter the bore. hmm, so I wondered how a bare ball might work? Not the normal/regular procedure, but have heard of bare ball use before. Sure 'nuff, the bare ball would just enter the bore and begin to slide down the bore atop the lands. I had to use the wiping stick in order to get the bare ball seated atop the powder, as the bare ball wound not go the depth of the bore by itself. Granted, I was a bit leary of this procedure, but by keeping the muzzle pointed to the sky, knew the ball would not separate itself from the powder charge if I was careful. I capped the rifle n' from a rest touched off a round. To my surprise I hit the small sticky on the paper at 40 yards! Could this be a fluke I thought? So one way to find out? I loaded another 2 loads with the same powder charge and bare ball load. The attached target shows how well that half stock plains rifle performed. Do I intend to use it as a bare ball gun in the future, not really. Though it is a comfort, of sorts, to know there is good performance is had to use that same ball diameter as a bare ball sometime later on. Yes, i removed the barrel from the stock and attended to a thorough n' complete cleaning of the bore when back home. Still tinkering with this rifle and plan on using a smaller ball than would normally be used and with thicker patch material. I do not see a need for using a short ball starter in the field/hunting load. Why? Were I to use a rifle for range target/competition, then maybe I'd use a short ball starter. In having spoken with an Alaskan friend a couple of years ago and listening to his many experiments using a thick patch and smaller than usual for bore diameter round ball and the excellent results he achieved, has me planning on following this procedure. Somewhere around a .460 or .480 ball diameter and heavy patch material, but need to tinker to see what works best in this rifle... Attachments:
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Post by missionary on Dec 23, 2017 3:05:52 GMT -7
Good morning
There is no reason you cannot use a "bare ball" in a rifled or smooth barrel. But remember to use lube to keep the fouling soft and no lead in barrel.
40-1 and pure lead RB will "swage" up on ignition to fill bores. The fouling will fill in the free bore around the ball but building up in the process of repeated firing. So about 5 shots with no lube on the ball / barrel things get sticky again.
2F will build faster than 3F. Mix some Crisco or olive oil with bees wax 45 / 55 (thickness like a rub on shoe polish) and smear the ball before loading. This will lube the barrel and keep the fouling softer... easier loading.
You can swab the barrel every couple shots with a moist patch (spit works great) then clean when finished.
Have played with thick patching RB. In a 69 have got down to caliber 50 RB using soft leather or multiple thick patches (canvas) and still the barrel shoots true. The multiple patches get alignment issues but with careful stacking it works. That is one of the reasons old hunters continued to use muzzle loaders. Versatile. So many options available in in a pinch. And with a flintlock... well all ya need is a hard rock, some tapping and back to hunting.
But you wrote the most important word Tinker. ML is a like all other man made contraptions. There is that near perfect load for that fire arm. And what fiun finding it. There is no limit what combinations will work the best in your rifle. But shoot it will. Hornets nest, leaves, shirt tails, scrap paper, hymn book pages have all been wrapped around RB to good use.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 23, 2017 10:24:55 GMT -7
I would like to add a tidbit of information that has little to do with this discussion of patched VS bare ball but might shed some light on one aspect of ML projectile hardness. I as have many others have always been told that a ML ball or bullet intended for a rifled barrel must be cast in pure soft lead so that it will obturate to fill the grooves of a rifled barrel. This concept is true to a point but will vary somewhat in regard to projectile weight. A sphere projectile will be of the lightest weight a projectile can be for any caliber so lacking the inertia of a heavier projectile will have to be softer to achieve obturation. As the projectile weight increases so does the inertia or the resistance to movement under pressure and so will result in obturation even with a harder alloy .
I will relate an interesting observation on this subject. I have for some time been supplying projectiles for a ML group and at some point some for reasons known only to them asked for gas checked bullets. With that request I set forth in some testing to learn if using a GC bullet in a ML was a viable choice that could deliver the same level of accuracy as a soft plain base bullet. Initial results were not good until after some thought on the matter lead me to try annealing the gas checks before installing them on the bullets.
Apparently the hardness of the un-annealed GC had a shear strength beyond the pressure the BP was developing so was not achieving enough obturation to fully engage the rifling. Then after annealing the gas checks to soften them the accuracy came back on par with the non-gc bullets. There was no gain in performance that I could see other than a cost increase but something was learned.
Now step up to phase two of this learning experience. Someone questioned using a .451" diameter jacketed bullet in their 45 cal ML that had a .451" bore diameter with a .458" groove. That question sparked the what if and going on lessons learned from phase one I decided to try a similar test with a jacketed bullet in a ML.
Going on what I had previously learned I did not try un-annealed bullets but went right to annealed bullets. In this case it was the Hornady .451" 300gn XTP bullet annealed on a wood stove standing upright until the cores began to melt.
The end result of this again was accuracy on par with plain base soft castings. This was all quite surprising to me in that it seemed to go against all that I was ever told about what was required for good accuracy from a rifled ML barrel.
I guess this whole experience falls under the heading of "tinkering". Given enough tinker time one might discover that for a given barrel there may be an optimum bullet hardness that gives best accuracy per any given bullet weight. I would expect to see that optimum hardness on a floating scale determined by projectile weight IE. heavier bullet weight = harder alloy = optimum for best accuracy.
Now wont it be interesting when we get to a place where time does not exist and will never fall short of goals because of "not enough time " !!!
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Post by missionary on Dec 23, 2017 12:10:24 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
If you ever get an opportunity to crono those two bullet types with the same load out the same rifle It would be very interesting.
My thinker says the Annealed is slower than a PB .... But then as you wrote sometimes things just are not what we think. With it being a caliber 45 and heavy there just may be enough mass to fill the shallow grooves all the way.
Thank you for this to read... Tinker and tinker some more. I do think this is how much good comes forth especially with our fine time with smoking barrels.
Merry Christmas !! He came so we can enter into Eternal Life!
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 23, 2017 14:53:35 GMT -7
It does not have to be a 45 cal ML to test this in it can be done in a 45-70 muzzle loaded and using a primed case as the primer.
Adding to what I have already posted about bullet hardness and obturation I would like to recant what I read in the book " the bullets flight" by DR. Franklin Mann about jacketed bullet obturation when using jacketed bullets at bore diameter rather than groove diameter which is what is required with a ML arm.
Dr. Mann was trying to achieve the highest possible velocity from a 6.5mm / .264" groove barrel. In a 6.5mm groove barrel the bore will run at about our standard for 25 cal about .257". Dr. Mann was shooting a jacketed 25 cal bullet in a 26 cal barrel but using what he called a base band bullet which amounts to a 26 cal gas check on the base of a 25 cal bullet. His idea was to reduce barrel friction by using a bullet that for its length was riding the lands with only a very short section the base band being engraved.
I do not recall what his pressure range was but obviously it had to be far greater than BP can reach. What I found very interesting result was that he discovered from his recovered fired bullets that the bullet was being engraved for the full length of the bullet. That is proof positive that with adequate pressure even jacketed bullets obturate.
Another facet of shooting that also points to the necessity for bullet obturation for accuracy is in loading paper patch bullets as they were originally loaded by the Sharps rifle company. Original Sharps PP bullets were patched to bore diameter not groove diameter and their history speaks for itself. Some folks have a hard time getting their head around this concept because they have always been lead to believe that a lead alloy bullet has to have a diameter equal to or larger than groove diameter by a couple thousandths of an inch. This is one reason we often find that vintage molds often drop smaller diameter bullets than their modern counterparts. These vintage molds were intended to be used with black powder and its attendant fouling. The under groove diameter bullets would chamber more easily after a few shots had built up some fouling but the fairly soft lead/tin bullet alloy would obturate adequately for good accuracy even in a clean bore. I have some vintage 45 cal molds that will not drop larger than .457" diameter and at that many feel this is too small for good accuracy in a modern 45 cal .458" groove rifle barrel. Buuuuuut given the right pressure time curve for the alloy being used and I will match all bets against my getting accuracy on par with more conventional over groove diameter bullets.
Any takers ?
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Post by missionary on Dec 23, 2017 17:01:07 GMT -7
Very interesting ! Thank you Dan ! This is why I like this place.
I could see it taking a lot of shooting with all sorts of jacket material to come up with real facts.
Add in land width / depth. Caliber, barrel length, chamber dimensions / lead / rifling configuration at initial contact...
I think I will stick with lead and refine my paper patching.
But with BP... Life is so simple with the right lead mix. Swat something with a 525 grain caliber 50 chugging along at 1300 fps and life quickly oozes away.
I do hope to get a crack at some big thing one day with our 50 Alaskan with a 50-50 PP at 1850 fps. Cow.. horse.. maybe a rampaging Datsun !
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 23, 2017 18:29:07 GMT -7
I did get to shoot a mid size bull moose with a 50 AK and it was the only time I have ever seen a moose crumple from a non spine or brain hit. It was a high lung shot that hit the shoulder blade but went well under the spine. His legs buckled at the shot and he dropped like a rock. After about a half a minute he regained his feet and another shot about an inch from the first had the exact same effect. The load was with a LBT 510gn WFN design leaving the muzzle a tad over 1700 fps. The shot range was maybe a bit short of 100 yards. There was a long enough interval between the sound of the shot and the sound of the bullet strike that the bullet strike could be clearly heard as a loud SMAK.
I have to agree about the simplicity of the large bore ML and its killing effect but have to confess total ignorance on how to get the most accuracy from a smooth bore. I am a student of the rifled barrel but am at a total loss trying to understand the mechanics of how to make a smooth bore shoot well.
I shot a black tail in Alaska with a 69 cal rifled bore with patched ball and if I remember correctly about 180gn FG. At a range of maybe 40 yards the ball centered the heart and seemed to detonate the heart so there was not enough left to eat. That animal was slightly quartering away and like the moose dropped at the shot.
There is likely nothing more simple than a ML smoothbore but the use of such is totally foreign to me. I have a 12 bore single barrel fouler but seem to never have time to learn its quirks. It is the only ML I have and have always kept it just in case the anti gun folks are successful.
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Post by missionary on Dec 23, 2017 23:41:24 GMT -7
Moose are interesting creatures. Never hunted one but the little I understand they can take a lot of wallop and keep on chewing. From the shooting we have done with the 50 AK it does put the Smack on Target. 525 grains chugging along at 1800 fps really moves a swinging ram at 200 yards. Our 86 Japchester (26" Octagon) rebored by JESS shoots a 450 or that 525 just as accurately at 1850 (4198) as the 1800... But My body says 1800 is far more than needed. We use the 450 PB more at 1600 fps for plinking which is a lot of fun off cross sticks on a 200 yard 6" gong. The gong really flies about.
Smoothbores. Practical / reliable accuracy is about 50 yards. 4" groups common. A little load work with charges and wads and maybe a buffer will add 10 yards.
Some barrels are 70 yarders but they are rare. But as with all tinker on. Some strange ideas work out with one or two.
Have a Fox B 12 Gauge I wanted to make a "Bear Gun" barrel set for RB. So started reaming out the chokes .002 a wack. At about .007 constriction remaining patterns got to 3" and sometimes 2.5" at 50 yards for each barrel but impacts were crossing so two rear sights were used to get both groups regulated. At .005 constriction 2.75" was common and some 2.5" were the best. At .003 no help so stopped. Wad thickness with a .685 50-50 ball mix does also affect things as you finally come into the right "squeeze on the package as it is leaving the muzzle. Same as the muzzle crown issues. But a no choke barrel does not groups as well. That last 2" of constriction does the steering I think.
So with a ML it may well be the same. There needs be a very consistent exit "steering pressure" for the best pattern. That is where the wad comes into play. Plastic or cloth must hold the RB and exit the same every shot. Long ML barrels vibrate and long wood stocks twist and influence things. But out to 40-50 yards any ML smoothbore patched RB is critter deadly.
A 69 on a Black tail !!! That is like me buying a 72 Pedersoli Kodiak to shoot Illinois corn crunchers ! But got it also so I could shoot caliber .60 - .65 RB in a rifled barrel. It was far cheaper and a thick patch gives all sorts of options. Going to try .53 this time up. 140 grains of 3F and it should get moving right along. But just for fun as we have a caliber .54 rifled flinter for deer. But that 72 with 135 grains of 3F and a .710 patched will go through everything it has hit. But it is way over the power factor we really need. But there is a feller who raises buffs just up the road a mile who maybe will let me one day put down a bull. Even if I have to buy it ! Buff burgers / steaks / stew... wahoo !
Another smoothbore.. 120 MM smoothbore but fin stabilized projectile (40mm) at 5200 fps. Shoot 4x4"s at 2 miles if the computer system and the crew are good at it. So a smoothbore can be very accurate..
As we hunt river bottoms / thick stuff my normal firearm shot on a corn cruncher has been under 33 yards. Have popped a couple farther out but only due to the victim standing out in the field. Close was getting under 10 yards. Shoot one and set the fur on fire. So went back to recurves 20 years ago. No problem dropping our ILLinois white tails with a 52# recurve under 10 yards. Some at 5 yards from a tree stand.
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