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Post by Bullshop on Mar 5, 2017 10:30:04 GMT -7
![]() ![]() Over a year ago I picked up an original Remington rolling block rifle but until now I have not known what it was chambered for. It is a wee bit unusual in that it appears to be all original but seems to be a mix of parts from civilian and military parts. What interested me most about the gun was its mint condition bore. Being a shooter and not a collector that is of the most importance to me. I got this at a gun show in trade for a 1903-a3 rebore to 35 Whelen done by Jess Ocumpaugh. The gentleman I traded told me it was chambered in 11mm Mauser which really got my attention because I was not aware of Remington chambering any RB rifles in the 11mm Mauser. This gun in very good condition all around has the tinned finish commonly found on re arsenald guns. I put it away after acquiring it and had forgotten about it until Tina having a bout of spring fever did some re organizing of our house and came unto the stash. Finally after a year I got around to doing a chamber cast and then some research using the dimensions of the casting. As best as I could decipher the chamber is for the 43 Egyptian cartridge with that beautiful bore having a tight .4445" groove. A bit more research revealed that cases could be formed from 50-90 brass for which I just happened to have a small supply of on hand. First checking the case rim in the case rim recess of the chamber proved to be a perfect fit to both diameter and thickness. Now feeling quite antsy about getting this rifle shooting I decided to try to form some cases using the rifles chamber. I lubed the 50-90 brass well with Bullsize case sizing lube and gently tapped the cases into the chamber with a leather mallet. They actually went in quite easily and formed well but were much to long with the mouth of the case extending past the lead of the barrel and slightly into the rifling. So far so good and now for trimming. JR. had just acquired a Harbor freight mini chop saw to form 300 BO brass from 223 and with his permission it proved just the tool for trimming this brass as well. The process was to chop to about .020" of correct length then finish with a conventional trimmer. This created a little bit of a problem because the 50-90 rims are quite large and will not fit some trimmers. The old Lyman trimmer is the only one I know of that will accept the large rim. We use the newer RCBS trimmer for most trimming but we did not have a shell plate large enough and I am not sure if they make on. With the trimming dome and some very good looking cases resulting the next issue was load data. Well pretty much other than black powder load data is non existent for the 43 Egyptian so I was on my own. Having no small amount of experience with these large black powder cases in original black powder guns I decide to try Trail Boss powder in an amount that I felt would surely push the bullet through the barrel while at the same time being very conservative as to pressure. Starting at 7gn it was obvious that pressure was way on the conservative side so I increased the powder charge in one grain increments until I reached a charge of ten grains. still seemingly well on the safe side of pressure I stopped at ten grain because at 25 yards this load shot perfectly to the battle sight position with the sight in the laid down position, GREAT! The Bullet I am using is the RCBS 44-370 FN which drops from the mold at .448" I decided to lube these in a .450" die so as to not touch the bullet but only lube them. Another little bit of a challenge was loading dies. RCBS makes a set of dies for the 43 Egyptian but finding a $200.00 price tag on them put me into stuttering stammering convulsions. I instead used the more standard Bullshop method of fudging. I found that a 45 acp carbide sizer works perfectly for sizing the case necks to a good tight grip on these bullets. Case neck flaring was don't with the tap of a tack hammer and a beveled punch but could just as easily used a scrap 30-06 case inverted or some such. Bullet seating was accomplished using a 50-70 seater die which seemed to work nicely giving fair concentricity considering. Crimping enough to get the flair off the case mouth was done with a Lee 44 mag factory crimp die. It was found that the carbide ring at the entry of the die was perfect to apply a gentle crimp to the case mouth. That was it! Loaded ammo that perfectly fits the chamber of my rifle. Shooting at 100 yards proved quite pleasingly rewarding. I will hopefully get Tina to add a couple pictures to this to add a couple 1000 words. Another couple things I would like to mention here are first about using my chamber to form the brass. It worked very well but I for what ever reason have reservations about continuing to form brass this way in my rifle. For this reason I contacted Womak the rolling block guy and asked about acquiring a barrel stub from a barrel that was beyond shooting but still had a decent chamber. He agreed to send a 7" stub from a 43 Egyptian for $7.50 plus shipping. That seemed very reasonable a price and a good solution to forming brass. The other thing I want to mention is basic brass availability. I learned that another basic case that can be used is the 32 gauge available from Mag-tech. This seems to be the cheapest possible source of basic brass for forming into 43 Egyptian. We purchased 100 pc of the Mag-tech brass and had it delivered at less than $1.00 each. We get a little bit of a dealer break but still its the cheapest source for basic brass. Just like 50-90 brass it comes in 2.5" length. So there you go, mystery solved and a happy ending. Hope this might be helpful to others finding themselves in possession of one of the many rifles in 43 Egyptian rifle in good shooting condition. Oh and I should also add that as is my rifle unmarked as to caliber and missing the Egyptian numerical classification markings I discovered the reason why. It was because the Egyptians reneged on the contract with Remington and at mid contract some rifles were diverted to France in armament preparation for the Franco Prussian war. Many of these rifles that were diverted to France were totally unmarked as is my rifle and most often found in very good condition as was my rifle. Hope you all find this as interesting as I did.   |
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 5, 2017 18:13:16 GMT -7
Thanks Dan for sharing this with us. Now, I have a better understanding of how owners of obsolete firearms figure out what ammo to use in an unmarked one. I read your Bullshop site postings each evening, to try to learn more about our hobby.
I am thinking about going back to Forsyth again in June. Last year, my first time, I used my 1884 Trapdoor with your 405 & 520 gr. origonal style bullets. What do you think of using my N.Y. .50-70 Remington? Is it capable of hitting the 805 yd. buffalo with the origonal military sights? The rifle is in very good condition with a perfect bore. You also cast bullets for it for me. I've loaded 70gr by weight, Goex 2F BP, or would I be better off to use 1 1/2 Swiss instead? I don't have anywhere to test this rifle at more than 200 yds. here in NW Ohio. Whichever rifle I go with, I'll have to order more bullets from you. I just bought 20 more new Starline .50-70 cases for $14 last week. I now have 70 to use. Also, which primers do you recommend? I have Winchester large rifle on hand, but have read about some using Magnum instead.
Thanks, Gary
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 6, 2017 10:21:52 GMT -7
OK Gary I will try to answer your questions but remember you are only getting one mans opinions and not necessarily facts.
#1 What do I think about using your NY 50-70 roller at the Quiggley, well I have mixed feelings about it. First and foremost I think it will be great fun and if that is the goal you will succeed beyond measure. If your goal is aimed with equal emphasis on scoring well then the truth is the 50-70 is a handicap. When the 45-70 came out it was hailed as a tremendous ballistic gain in performance over the 50-70 and indeed it was. Unlike today where changes are made more due to political influence for awarding contracts the 45-70 became our second military metallic rifle cartridge because of its performance and the substantial R&D that went into the cartridge. I enjoy reading the history of the development and testing that went into the 45-70. A very interesting read is the Sandy Hook trials that addresses some very interesting ballistic points about bullet drag, stability, and attitude in flight, things that modern long range shooters are concerned with using the most high-tech equipment.
#2 is it capable of hitting the 805 yard buffalo with original mil sights? Not having any hands on experience with the NY roller I am not familiar with the sight. My instinctive guess is yes. I say so because most of the early mil rifles had volley sight settings that would go to 1500 + yards. These were not for aiming at a particular target but for firing group volleys which were used more as artillery than individual fire. Also consider the sight radius between the barrel mounted rear sight and the front sight. The closer the spacing between front and rear sight the greater the amount of change in POI for any given increment change to the sight. In other words the closer the sights are together the longer the range capability of any given load. Other things certainly come into play like bullet weight, shape, diameter, velocity, ect. but since you are shooting a gun with a very low upper pressure your potential velocity range is limited to perhaps 1200 fps so velocity weather starting at 1100 or 1200 fps wont have nearly the influence on your max range as will your sight spacing.
#3 powder type ? That is entirely up to the gun and if I say either way it could prove me a fool!
#4 primer type ? Refer to #3
What can I say these old guns can be as fickle as women when not treated well. Listen to them, give them what they ask for and they will be good to you!
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Post by missionary on Mar 6, 2017 13:20:41 GMT -7
Howdy Dan That was a fun read ! Been shooting a 43 Spanyard for 30 years when up north . Fun old beast ! That 43 RCBS Mauser mold is the best shooter in our rifle also. Our groove runs at .443+ and the mold drops a 40-1 right at that diameter. Have used Unique and it sure is fun to shoot.
Have 3 43 Spanyards and pulled the barrel off a carbine when a 50-45 barrel showed up. Same threads !
That Harbor Frieght saw is one fine tool to have to cut any soft metal / wood item. Got ours for the 300 ACC but it gets used for anything that needs wacked.
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Post by missionary on Mar 6, 2017 13:47:13 GMT -7
Howdy Gary
Have a 50-70 1866 and a 1868 trapdoor so have read a little on them.
The basic infantry tactic beyond 100 yards (maybe a bit farther) was squad firing at targets. The Sarge would tell the Corporal which target to engage. He would then tell his squad which target, the range and when to fire. Some targets would need the attention of a whole platoon. But the mass firing was very effective. It took the bullet time to get to target so an individual could see the BP puff and roll over. But with numerous shooters life was hazardous down range. It was simple for a squad on line to basically fire "straight ahead" thus giving good area coverage. Roughly the two center man fired directly at the target. Men on the right would add two feet to the right for each man down the line they were. Thus the third man from center is firing roughly 6 feet right. Hard to move 6 feet in one second. Those caliber 50 soft lead slugs only had to hit you anywhere to cause a sure awful nasty wound.
So without a lot of practice dealing with rough "volley" fire sights hitting a target at 500 yards is going to be a real trial. If the memory is working 900 yards was considered the practical range for the 50-70 Infantry Rifles. Beyond that the rainbow ballistic was beyond the capabilities of the sight. But at even 500 yards you will be very hard pressed to get a precise repeatable sight picture using the issue rear sight. Not impossible but not easily done. That is one reason the Springfield Model 1884 was issued with the great Buffington long range sight. That is one fine long range sight for a BP Infantry rifle !
But if I had the opportunity to go out and blaze away at 800 yards at an "Ol Wooly" sized target I would do so if all I had was a Rolling Block Carbine in 50-45.
Mike in Peru
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 6, 2017 14:44:53 GMT -7
The Buffington was not as good a battle sight as it was a target sight. Its hard to see through that tiny aperture when its placed that far from your eye so the aperture was useless in b attle. Standard battle sight is OK not too hard to see. That thin front sight blade is much easier to see with the later hooded front sight.
One thing that has fascinated me about the Buffington sight is the built in compensation for spin drift. The slider in the rear sight is not vertical but cants left to compensate for the spin drift imparted to the bullet from the right hand twist rifling.
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Post by missionary on Mar 6, 2017 16:42:01 GMT -7
Howdy Dan
You are correct about the small little "peep" not being meant for battle. Is there not a "open sight" also cut into the leaf above the peep that was used as the long range battle sight ? The little peep should have an engraved line that points to "it's" correct sight setting which differs from the notch sight.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 6, 2017 17:11:39 GMT -7
Yes you are right there are two options the peep hole and a V notch for every sight setting. Still the thin front blade with the shallow v notch requires some amount of squinting to do fine shooting maybe not conducive to accurate shooting under stress of battle. A wide flat faced black front post sight would have been better as a battle sight, just my opinion.
I have the front sight hood on my 1884 and it is quite an improvement over the non hooded sight as it keeps the light on the front blade consistent so it always appears the same. Without the hood I always seem to shoot to the side that the most light is on.
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Post by missionary on Mar 6, 2017 17:38:03 GMT -7
I have to agree with the use of a hood. For years I never understood why those little hoods were included. Probably lost far to many over the years as I now spent time trying to come up with one. Covered firing lines near ruined me.
Made a hood out of a chap stick tube down here and fitted it to our Win 1892 44 WCF for shooting out in the desert.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 6, 2017 20:02:41 GMT -7
OK, thank you both for the very good explanations. I think that down deep in my old cranium I knew what the answer would be, but you both filled in the why's & why nots. As to expectations at Quigley, if I hit more than 7 targets this year with the old trapdoor .45-70, it would be an improvement. I used the small peep hole on the Buffington, except for the offhand "bucket" at 350 yds. I left quite a few of Dan's nice lead creations in the hillside behind it, but couldn't ring it. I've been watching the auction sites for an affordable Pedersoli "John Bodine" rolling block in .45-70 to use this year. They seem to have good reviews.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 6, 2017 20:46:38 GMT -7
Yes the Pedersoli's are good rifles either roller, high wall, or sharps models. Because they are good rifles the prices have gone up to the point that they are nearly the same as the two big domestic makers C. Sharps and Shiloh Sharps. They are all good rifles!
I remember one poor soul when I attended the Quiggley that fired the entire match without a single hit.
Another fella had no hits on the first day and that evening came to my camper asking for help. I looked his rifle over and found it to be badly leaded. We scrubbed it out for hope of doing better the next day. I asked what bullets he was using and he showed me some bullets he bought from Midway. They were a 405gn flat nose very hard alloy with crayon like hard wax lube. We reloaded all his ammo with some bullet I had brought along for sale lubed with our black powder lube. Next day he started ringing steel and his face lit up like a 200 watt bulb.
I was lucky in that I fell in with a group of shooters that had a spotter that was not shooting and he spotted for me. Without a spotter you will drop your first several shots at each target trying to figure out where your hitting and what sight corrections to make.
I did very well there shooting a high-wall 45-70 loaded with the Lyman 485gn Smitzer and a smokeless duplex load using WC-870 as a main charge and I think 10% 4198 as a kicker.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 6, 2017 21:02:29 GMT -7
If you go to the Quigley website, & read the rules. I interpret them as to trying to discourage using duplex loads with wads, as last year I was told that there have been 2 bad incidents, with serious injuries previously.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 6, 2017 21:47:27 GMT -7
Perhaps now but I shot there maybe 10 years ago. At that time there were no restrictions as to loads. They said they encouraged black powder but any "SAFE" smokeless loads were allowed SAFE being the key word.
If there were incidents with either duplexing or wad use it was based on the ignorant use of such because its proven to be a safe practice when properly done.
I have been looking in on a newer reloading site 'Re loading Central" and some of what I have seen there scares me. There will always be people that go about such things as loading ammo weather BP or smokeless with reckless abandon and sooner or later Murphy catches up with them. Then the fault is laid on a certain practice and not rightly on the careless person. Its like Remington being sued for having a faulty safety after a woman leaned a loaded rifle against a vehicle that was knocked over and discharged killing her son. A terrible thing for sure but who's at fault Remington or the woman that violated one of the ten commandments of gun safety. The procedure is to first learn the safe us of then adhere to a procedure with a safety check list.
Then there are those that should never ever be allowed near loading equipment. Harsh maybe but true.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Mar 7, 2017 1:05:38 GMT -7
That is very true. Better to be safe than sorry. Back 40+ years ago when I was single, & lived on the farm, I had my own semi, & built up a collection of over 50 mostly older firearms. I started reloading .45 Colt, .44-40, .25-20, .44 Special & Magnum, & .30 M-1 Carbine. I remember buying 3 different loading manuals, then picking out loads that were specified as both safe & accurate for the firearm that I was loading for. I shot lots of groundhogs with the .30 carbine, using a 110 gr Speer JSN bullet, at just over military velocities. The best shot was paced off at 198 paces after hitting it dead center between the eyes as it was sunning itself on the top of the burrow. I was using the roof of my car for a rest. My dad was with me, & said that if he hadn't seen the shot, he wouldn't have believed me. That was in 1970, & I still have it. It's a U.S. Postal Meter make, with a Marlin barrel. When I was shooting it a lot, it would keep shots in the 9 & 10 ring all day long. I've owned 4 others, & sold them, as they wouldn't shoot like this one. The best part is I only paid $65 for the carbine, with 3 15 round 7 1 30 round clips. 2 years ago, I took it to the C.M.P. at Camp Perry (25 miles from home), & had it checked by one of the gunsmiths. He offered me $1200 on the spot for it, with a leather grip bayonet & original sling & oiler. I still have it.
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