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Post by missionary on Sept 7, 2016 0:43:45 GMT -7
Good morning For years I have wanted a caliber 50 lever rifle. The 50-110 Winchester on a 1886 frame has never been within reach so have been content with the 45-70's ... well sort of. As others have been sending JES Reboring "ugly Marlins and Winchesters" over the years to get calibers that are rather pricey if you are going to rebarrel. Calibers like 414 Supermag, 41/444, 375 Winchester and a real 1886 45-70 are just a few.
About 3 years ago Jes started reboring caliber 50 with a .512groove. 15 years ago a Winchester 86 (jap) 26 inch octagon barrel came my way at dealer price. Never shot it a lot except off cross sticks at gongs as ILLinois does not trust us with center fire rifles on white tail. So that long heavy powder consumer looked like my solution to a caliber 50 lever flipper. The 50 Alaskan has been afield for at least 25 years. "Store bought" conversions are right in there as pricey as an original 50-110 1886. But ever since doing my first Marlin over haul from 30-30 to 414 Supermag it is only a mater of study and application of correct procedures to get a compatible cartridge to load, feed and eject. So the project was entered into with confidence. Most conversions are made on 1895 model Marlins or Model 71 Winchesters. But the model 86 was in hand. So a bit of study showed the 86 could be done.
When we returned this June up north here to our fair country from Peru, the 86 was sent in to get the bore enlarged. Three weeks later (appears June is a slow month for Jes Reboring) the barreled action was back. Slugged at a very consistent .5115-512 as best as my simple pure lead ball being pushed through the barrel method can ascertain. Over the years I have been shooting the 50-70. The standard Lyman 515 mold at 450 grains has been well used. This bullet has a thin base rim and is OK for "Trapdoor and old Roller" pressures. But the 50 Alaskan can go to pressures that will transform a Trapdoor and ruin a #1 Rolling Block. Before we returned two molds were secured to begin the loading. A LBT .512 400 LFN and a NEI 520 .510GC were found. The 400 grainer which drops WW +1 % tin at 411 grains is envisioned as a plinker / river bottom roamer bullet. The 520 grainer drops at 525 from the same mix and with the GC attached could hunt any critter this side of our earth to include 25 foot long crocodiles.
The rifle was reassembled. If you have never reassembled a model 86 (jap) do some research on the internet. There is a tutorial that you must watch. The Model 86 is not a model 1886. Trust me you need to read the "How to..." on this one. Was the rifle ready to shoot... Yes as a single shot only. The action requires a bit of work to load, feed and eject the straight walled caliber 50 brass. Happily Straline makes 50 Alaskan brass. A box of 250 had been secured before our return. But these fat cylinders will not feed. That will be a continued story. It is now 2:42 am here in ILLinois and my body is requesting I head back to bed. |
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 7, 2016 7:25:29 GMT -7
Congratulations my friend !!! I know you have wanted this for a long time. I went through all the same things as to getting it to feed smoothly even on the original 1886 used in my conversion. Its been a long time now but I think we went with a mod. 71 cartridge lifter to help solve the feed problem. One point that might raise its ugly head is with anchoring the mag tube. When this happened with my conversion checking Winchester archives we found that the original 1886 in 50-110 gave the same problems and had to be addressed by Winchester techs at that time.
If your 1886 repro has the threaded mag tube you may not have issue but the original 1886 did not have a threaded tube. For this we went with a solid (un seemed) mag tube and threaded it to a metal block machined to fit the receiver. We also beefed up the original mag cap anchor as well as adding an additional anchor at the mag tube guide at mid point on the barrel.
My rifle is with full length tube and 26" barrel so had those points available to work with where a half length tube will not.
My hunting load is shooting a 510gn WFN-GC at somewhere around 1750 fps. I have had other rifles on the more modern mod 71 both Win and Browning in which I pushed this same bullet to 2000 fps but because of the age of this original 1886 I limit the velocity somewhat.
Even though somewhat limited in performance this load 510gn bullet at 1750 fps is not lacking in field performance. It has performed well as a moose harvester in Alaska efficiently dropping the large deer and doing it without the meat loss of faster magnum type cartridges. Here in Montana I loaned it out for a bison cull. This huge belligerent at over 2000 lbs. live weight was causing grief to local ranchers having total disregard for fences and having his way with lady bison not yet of breeding age.
The local butcher that processed that bull recovered the bullet and gave it to me. Using the load previously mentioned the bullet is a perfect classic mushroom. When you arrive here for your elk hunt I will enjoy showing you.
If you need any help with load data I will be happy to help out. In a long ago article from Wolf publishing in either hand loader or rifle magazine they used the then popular Powley slide rule computer to peg IMR 4198 as the optimum burn rate for this big bore diameter with very high expansion ratio.
Congrats again my friend!!!!
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Post by missionary on Sept 8, 2016 18:44:30 GMT -7
Howdy Bullshop and Thank you !
The barrel part was the easiest as Jes took care of the rifling/chambering.
Actually shot it for a month happily loading it as a single shot. Last month decided it was time to begin the real work of feed and cycling.
Found out real fast the Miroku model 86 would not tolerate a 50 AK case through the gate. Removed the gate tom get a better look at the "clog" point and saw quickly it needed the left tube entrance from 6-10 o'clock thinned down. That side of the tube actually ended up near knife edge and highly polished. The receiver at the tube opening also required metal removal to permit the 525 grainer to make it around the corner. The 400 grainer was much easier to get into the tube being much shorter. Put all the parts (after much polishing to get as smooth a "slide" as possible) back together and found the loading gate itself needed to be metal relieved on the inside edge. Once that was done the 525's will slide in although with just a bit of nudging. The 400's breeze through.
The rifle is also the 26 inch Octagon with full length mag. I do appreciate all the mass. The tube is "pinned" at the muzzle cap with a through bolt. So far no issues. But I have not run many 5 shot 525 grain strings through it. Have considered inserting a bolt through the right side of the frame into the mag side all under the handguard if added measures are needed to stop movement.
So with feeding fixed next was cycling. Got a 400 grainer in the tube and racked the lever down. Dummy cartridge was grabbed by the feed hook and instantly jammed into the carrier. Rim diameter was fine but the carrier required to be opened up on the upper edges as the straight wall caliber 50 case is a bit fatter than the 45-70 case 1/2 inch from the rim. Diss-assemble again for another round of Dremel work and polishing. It is a wonder to understand all the interaction of parts on the model 86.
Putting it back together for the 5th time (getting half-way good at it) ran that dummy 400 grainer into the gate. Discovered with this rifle after the round is loaded the gate needs to be pushed in once more to get the caliber 50 all lined up on the lifter. Lowered the lever somewhat slowly watching the parts interact as the round was placed into the carrier and lifted up. Slowly started the lever back to battery and the cartridge mouth got hung on the lower chamber edges.
After another teardown and careful work with some special shaped files and honing stones the rifle was test run again without any problems. The dummy was cycled repeated with no problems. Two more were made up and all three ran like 45-70's used to. Then a couple of dummy 525's were made. Those need to be cycled with a bit more vigor. Those heavy weights need not be treated as little toys.
My loading started with 5744 in the 1400 fps arena. Just wanted to be sure about all the parts working and how my 150 pounds was going to survive this beast. The 525's were gas checked and fired later with 47-52 grains of H4198. Those 52 grain charges are stout. Have seen some load data that shows up to 56 grains of H4198 under a 520 cast gas checked bullet. Will not try any heavier loads until the ground dries and I can sit behind my cross sticks. Have no real idea what the velocity is but it has to be cooking right along. I have no regrets there is a nice padded leather butt cover on this rifle. Not as vicious a recoil as my double 12 Fox gives with round ball at 1550 fps but a more solid shove that I can not begin to stop. At 50 yards the 525's are grouping 1.5 - 1.75 inches. That is with a peep sight. Very firm back pull on the fore arm. It is one power house of caliber 50 ! I would not hesitate to go out after any critter on this side of the world with it.
It goes to the range every time I go. Has 95 rounds of cast down the tube. Most are 1500 fps. But there were 25 that were with 4198 up to 52 grains. Now if I could come across a rampaging Toyota or Datsun or even a big horse that needed stopped ! This is one fun rifle !
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 8, 2016 19:54:31 GMT -7
Its nice to have the big gun and never need it than to need and not have it. Mine was built to instill confidence when facing the bears that would show up at our Alaska house every spring. Not that my 45-70 ever came up lacking but the 50 is just more of a good thing.
The 50 Ak with the 510gn WFN is the only cartridge I have ever seen that would crumple a moose just buckle his legs under him without hitting spine or brain. And with that big flat nose bullet there is never any question weather you hit or missed. The whack of the bullet impact puts beavers to envy.
I have shot up to 700gn bullets but just to say I did. I really see no need for such heavy bullets in this rifle. Maybe if I wanted complete penetration on that big bison the 700gn bullet might have done it but the 510gn bullet that stayed in the animal killed him quite dead.
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Post by missionary on Sept 9, 2016 2:50:04 GMT -7
I would appreciate knowing your 4198 loads with the 510 WFN bullet.
Next step is setting up the Crony and shooting through the screens to see what the real fps is.
Did shoot 2 cases full of 3F under the 400 grainer. Holds right at 92 grains. That was real fun ! Going to load up 25 of those one day. Take along the cross sticks and wack the 200 yard gong for awhile. Should make that 50 pounds of steel ring like the dinner bell.
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Post by missionary on Sept 15, 2016 12:51:59 GMT -7
Hello again
Switched to H4198 with the 525 GC and was rewarded with the first "group" on paper at 50 yards. Started the test with 5 different charge weights, one bullet each to see if there was going to be a pressure issue with this rifle. 49 grains through 52 grains was tried.. again one bullet each. My big surprise was all 5 shots grouped into a cluster measuring 1 7/8 inches at 50 yards. No this is not going to win any egg shoot at 200 yards but this beast is not envisioned as being a bench rifle. I am doing my shooting sitting upright at a bench with a support under my left wrist which is pulling the forearm back into my right shoulder. I do have a padded leather butt cover laced on to this 86.
Two days later I returned to the same range early morning shooting to the west at 50 yards again. 5 rounds loaded with 51 grains of H4198 were sent down range and the cluster measured a bit less than 1 3/4 inches. These 5 rounds were cycled through the action as fast as I could "chuck" the lever but relaxing that second before sending the next round down range. Barrel was getting hot after #5. Temperature was 82 and in the sun.
If I can repeat this group next time out I will move to 100 yards with some ammo and bang on some steel.
The little information I have come across says 51 grains of H4198 under a 525 grain bullet should be moving along at about 1750 fps. Those speeds are taken from a 22 inch barrel. No idea if a 26 in tube will add to that. That is close enough for me. Big Buffs and bears were fired on with a lot less over the years without much doubt they had been thwaped with a big stick.
Would I do this project again? Absolutely! Without hesitation! I do enjoy large bore rifles and a caliber 50 in a lever rifle is nearing that "baked on smile level".
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 15, 2016 16:08:43 GMT -7
Sounds like your on the right path. Sorry I have not dug up my load data to share with you it just slipped my mind. I will try to remember to do so even though you seem to have done well without my help.
My rifle shoots extremely well with a similar bullet and 4198 powder. Its just too much for bench shooting though with its original crescent butt.
I had purchased a shot gun but blank to swap over but just never got to it. Its only been about 15 years so I might get to it in a reasonable amount of time, ha ha.
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Post by missionary on Sept 15, 2016 16:27:42 GMT -7
Howdy Bullshop
My cresent is covered over by a leather cover that was built up inside using an old slip on recoil pad shaped to the curve of the butt without that awful curved steel torture tool installed. The exterior of the leather is flat. Works very well. My 150 dripping wet pounds would not be able to shoot this rifle as it came from the new Winchester group. 500 grainer caliber 45's were beating me to pieces.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 16, 2016 6:29:00 GMT -7
I did dig into my load data yesterday and found my standardized load was not with IMR 4198 but instead used Scott 4197. I had acquired a couple 8lb kegs before Scott sold out to Accurate Arms. My burn rate chart shows all three powders IMR 4198, H-4198, and Scott 4197 to all be very close in burn rate but the Scott powder may be the slightly slower of the three.
The load I was using was with 52.5gn Scott 4197 with the 510gn WFN-GC at 1750 fps. I had noted that I was using the very hot Fed 215 mag primer. The Fed 215 M is not only hotter but has a longer duration of spark than nearly all other primers. A 50 cal has a very high expansion ratio so the longer spark time may have helped to keep the pressure up during ignition a characteristic the Scott powder may have required. The Fed 215M was designed specifically for the 378 Weatherby a cartridge with fairly high expansion ratio and very large powder volume and utilizing slow powders.
I found a couple other loads charted for more moderate loads with plain base bullets using Trail Boss and other similar powders. If you would like to see those I will be happy to share, If I can remember!!!
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