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Post by todddoyka on Jan 5, 2016 12:09:20 GMT -7
i have a 44 mag in ruger's super redhawk(7 1/2" barrel) that next year i will be taking out deer hunting. it will be used at 50 yards(30yards is more likely). i have got a few deer with a 200gr xtp with a load of win296. the furthest i've ever shot a deer with a pistol was 125+/- yards, the rest of them(2 or 3) where under 40 yards. now here's the problem. i've had a stroke that i can no longer use my right hand(and right leg  ) so i am using my left hand(and a bog-pod with primos lift n lock). i use my left hand(i'm cross eyed dominant) so theres no problem there. i have tried to use my regular 200gr xtp, but i've found out  that a max load is no longer fun. i can shoot five or six of them and then i MUST put the ruger in the safe. i have tried 220gr wc(15bhn) with trail boss and unique. i can shoot them all day long. 900-1100fps should be just about right(44 spc loads) and it leaves my arm intact. suuuuupposedly theres a guy (bullshop is that you?!!!  ) that makes either the 250gr keith or the 232gr fn hp. i also want my boolits to expand a little bit.  the ones on the left are from my 444 marlin(265gr ranch dog 12bhn) dug out from my 100yards target(railroad tracks) and the ones on the right are 44 mag(220gr wc 15bhn) at 25 yards. the 444 is what i would like to see in my boolits, they weigh approx 200grs. so my question is(about dang time  !!) what boolits should i use? and what alloy? 20 to 1 or 30 -1? thanks!!! |
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 5, 2016 13:51:35 GMT -7
First off let me try to shed some perspective light on the issue of what is needed. As a former caribou guide on the Mulchatna river in western Alaska I was once confronted with a situation in which I had to finish off a clients wounded caribou with the only thing I had available at that moment which was a Ruger Bisley with 7.5" barrel and chambered for the 45 Colt. I was shooting the Saeco 300gn Keith at a chronographed 1000fps.
The caribou bull was maybe 40 yards and walking slowly straight away. Rather than let him get to somewhere that would be more difficult to get him out I chose to use the Ruger to stop him. From a kneeling position with elbow supported on one knee I took the shot. At the shot the bull dropped in his tracks. The 300gn 45 bullet landed right beside the ah um well right under his tail.
I had noticed my packer watching through his binoculars so when he walked over I asked if he saw the shot. He said yes and that he saw the hide on the chest stretch out then a puff of hair. We went to check this out and sure enough the bullet had exited the chest. That was a 300gn fairly wide flat nose bullet with an initial velocity of a mere 1000 fps that penetrated the length of a good size caribou bull and still had enough steam to poke through the thick hide on the chest. With that I had to ponder the question just how much is needed.
For hunting as you have described I would think that something far less than the above mentioned load will perform admirably.
As to your question about the 44 HP bullet yes we do have the Lyman 429215 HPGC in our line of 44 cal bullets. I think it will run about 220gn in a soft alloy. With this gas checked bullet in the 1000 fps range I believe good accuracy can be had with a very soft alloy even perhaps pure lead. Something on that order should get you what your looking for with very good expansion and good penetration at the ranges you mention.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 6, 2016 13:14:04 GMT -7
i forgot about the gas checks. i should have known  when using a 30 in 1 or pure lead. thank you. |
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 6, 2016 16:13:30 GMT -7
Have you considered changing calibers? I have a Ruger Bisley in 357 mag that is very easy to shoot even with very heavy loads with heavy bullets.
The Bisley is a bit heavier than the standard Black Hawk because it uses the same fame as the Super Black Hawk as well as the same cylinder diameter.
This makes for quite a stout cylinder with very thick walls. This Ruger easily handles loads that cause case sticking in my Marlin 357 mag.
It makes for a real easy shooting gun even with the stoutest of loads.
A 190gn RF with a stout load of Elmers 44 powder is way more than plenty for 50 yard deer shooting. Something to think about, anyway besides since when is thinking about getting a new gun a bad thing?
About the gas checks there are many different ideas of just what they do but seldom do I hear mention of what they do for a soft alloy to handle torque beyond the shear strength of the alloy.
Think of it like this, your barrel is a socket wrench and your bullet is a stuck bolt. If the torque required to loosen the stuck bolt is greater than the shear strength of the bolt when you try to turn the bolt it will strip. Now lets crimp on a titanium cap to your stuck bolt head and you have a greater chance of turning the bolt before it strips. Same goes for crimping on a gas check to the base of a soft bullet. The check handles the applied torque and keeps the bullet from stripping. By stripping I don't mean the bullet is sliding over the rifling without turning what I mean is that as the bullet moves forward if it is not turning at the same rate as the rifling twist it will allow gas to blow by on one side as the rifling cut in the bullet grows wider than the land width. It only takes the tiniest little gap to ruin everything.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 7, 2016 0:01:49 GMT -7
i would of changed calibers  but i want to buy another MGM barrel, a 38-55 win . and this barrel will take quite a while to get the funds. (oh crap, theres another one that has to use cast boolits!!!) this month or the next i will email you for 44 boolits and .311" ranch dogs. i really like the part about the socket wrench and a stuck bolt. |
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Post by missionary on Jan 8, 2016 15:32:19 GMT -7
Greetings
I hunt river n
bottoms and with revolvers. Have used 41 mag up through the Supermags. I find that under 40 yards a heavy for caliber bullet with a wide flat nose at 900 - 1000 fps is going to go through big heavy east ILLinois corn crunchers from every angle I have popped them. These flat nosed heavies plow a nice bore hole. I have not needed a "through the grill doors" shot but if that is all I had a heavy cast will do it. Normally my shots are well under 25 yards. Most are side chest shots. Have never had a bullet not exit. All the deer left easy to follow trails and were well out of red stuff when opened.
Mike in Peru
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 10, 2016 22:28:09 GMT -7
before my stroke(this will be year #4) i had a ruger super red hawk in 44 mag(around 15-20 years ago) that shot 200gr xtp with win296 at several deer. as far as i can remember every shot was behind the shoulder and completely pass thru. even the one at 125+/-yards. a few months before i had a stroke, a guy was selling his ruger super red hawk in 44 mag so i bought it to replace the one i was forced to sell because of my divorce. i got to shoot it a little bit until i had my stroke. and i completely forgotten about it. this year i plan on having a warren one hole sight and a marble's front sight put on. i did manage to try 240gr and 200gr xtp but that is a little to much for my one arm!!! i was going to try 300+gr but i would like to try 220-250gr at around 900-1100fps first. then after a while i would like to try 280-300+gr at 900-1000fps. |
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 11, 2016 8:33:48 GMT -7
Darn! I had an order for some of the 300gn Saeco last week but I didn't bother to run any extra over the order.
Thinking on it I think we might also have a Mihek mold for a 250gn Keith penta hollow point.
I think we got in on some group buys from another forum when he ran those in 44 and 45 cal and we got both.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 11, 2016 11:32:54 GMT -7
that 250gr keith hp sound great! what alloy would you use for deer(like a little bit of expansion) under 50 yards and kept it at 900-1100fps?
thanks
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 11, 2016 19:09:04 GMT -7
At 900 to 1100 fps you should be able to use pure lead. No alloy will expand better than pure lead. If using an alloy I wouldn't want harder than BHN-8
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Post by Junior on Jan 12, 2016 10:24:49 GMT -7
A deer is not a very big animal. With a 44 caliber bullet I doubt you would been much expansion with a good solid hit to the vitals. I shot one a couple of years ago with a 32 mag and it worked well, and it was a hard not expanding bullet.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 12, 2016 11:46:40 GMT -7
A deer is not a very big animal. With a 44 caliber bullet I doubt you would been much expansion with a good solid hit to the vitals. I shot one a couple of years ago with a 32 mag and it worked well, and it was a hard not expanding bullet. You are correct in that with a 44 expansion is not needed but that is what he wants right or wrong. One thing for sure is for the shots Tod is talking about expansion cant hurt anything. Besides recovering those classic mushroom expanded bullets from your game is kind of cool. An expanding bullet has a better chance of staying in a dear than a non expanding bullet. I once shot a mid size WT buck with a Marlin 44 mag shooting the classic Keith load. The range was maybe 25 yards and the dear was coming straight at me and the bullet struck in the chest. The remains about half of the bullet original weight was found in a hind quarter. Remember though that in the sealed breach of the Marlin the Keith load is doing about 1700 fps with the 250gn Keith bullet.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 12, 2016 14:36:55 GMT -7
i want to say that i am a complete and utter new guy at this. i have shot/reloaded jacketed bullets for over 20 years. the cast about less than a year, even tho around 2014 i began to hear the rumbles  of what a cast boolit can do. i've only shot at one deer(165gr ranch dog 30-40 krag 95%lead, 2.5%tin and 2.5% antimony, i think its around 12-13bhn?) at 93 yards but it was amazing. front shoulder, thru the lungs and heart and out thru a rib. bang, splat, dead deer. i was worried about cast boolits not doing any damage, but i do now after leaving a one inch hole that exited out the deer. the meat that was wasted was only a fraction it could have been when using my 270 and 130gr bt. i did find a couple of bullets that i dug out at the 100 yards target. they are 265gr hornady fn(444 marlin) that leave the muzzle at/around 2000fps. they go about .8 - .9", one is 1.127". i found a couple of the 275gr ranch dog that are .6 - .7", mostly .6". thats pretty good for cast. its what i would want. i managed to find a couple of the 220gr wc(44 mag, 15bhn) that go around .45 - .46" at 25 yards. this is with a load of trail boss(90% load). i do plan on using unique when the wind dies down and the weather premits. if the 44 load(either 215 or 250gr hp) goes around 1000fps and expands to .6", i will be very happy at under 50 yards, the deer won't be. do i want a boolit that completely passes thru a deer? sure. i would want a blood trail. but i really do think that a pure lead or a 1 in 40 will go straight thru a deer lungs, no shoulder shots. maybe when i get a couple of deer under my belt, i'll start using lyman #2. i'm sorry about being an dumba$# about expansion, i'm still pretty new to the cast boolits and not the jacketed bullets. think of it this way, i don't know nuthin, but i'm trying to learn even tho i do make mistakes.  |
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Post by Junior on Jan 12, 2016 14:56:40 GMT -7
If I was going for blood trail I would want it to go straight through. I bigger expanded bullet will make a bigger hole, then a non expanded bullet, as the same speed. But expansion slows a bullet down, so the non expanded will be going a bit faster at exit, so I wouldn't expect there to be much differance in wound channel. I might have to break out the ballistic gel...
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 12, 2016 17:54:34 GMT -7
Todd
I haven't seen any dumba$# stuff here yet. Sounds like you know what you want and have it pretty well under control.
I got a small WT buck this year with a Marlin 32 Win Special obtained from Jr. (Sierra hunter)
I think the load was 34gn IMR 4895 with the 180gn RBCS 32-170 fngc. Range was not more than 50 yards and the hit was about the same as you have described. The results were the same as well, he dropped on the spot with the same type of wound channel. Cant ask for better performance from any cartridge with any bullet.
BTW I really like that 32 special for that type of deer hunting. It seems about perfect in power for such use. I also like rifle length barrels on my lever guns which this one has. Carbines handle nice but for what ever reason I just prefer the rifle length barrel. I cant ascribe any real reason other than I like it.
Yesterday I obtained a Savage model 340 in 30-30 chambering. I have some but not too much experience with the 30-30 so I am anxious to let the learning begin. At some point I may have a 30-30 vs 32 special show down. Sounds like fun!
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 12, 2016 19:32:57 GMT -7
my first gun is a winchester 94 in 30-30. i learned alot from that gun. i even started handloading for it. then about 15+ years ago i put it into the safe and thats where it stayed. i've used a model 94 in 32 win spl too. it wasn't mine but i sure do have memories! my dad also has a savage m340 in 30-30, just like you do. i was into the velocity stage, you know if it can go 3000fps it should do at least 3300fps. you know, young and dumb!!!  now i'm pretty much settled down, groundhawgs and foxes don't count . my deer/bear rounds are down to about 1800fps for the krag and the 444(i gotta do that, its around 2000fps), 1300-1400fps for the 45-70 and soon to be 900-1100fps for the 44 mag. i really should bring out the 30-30, except it does need a front sight and it could use a lyman peep sight.....you sir, are an enabler!!!! i can only say that for 50 yards and below, you can't find a better cartridge!!! i never had the chance to make a further shot than 50 yards, but it can whomp'em out to 150 yards open sights. |
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) so i am using my left hand(and a bog-pod with primos lift n lock). i use my left hand(i'm cross eyed dominant) so theres no problem there. i have tried to use my regular 200gr xtp, but i've found out 
that a max load is no longer fun. i can shoot five or six of them and then i MUST put the ruger in the safe. i have tried 220gr wc(15bhn) with trail boss and unique. i can shoot them all day long. 900-1100fps should be just about right(44 spc loads) and it leaves my arm intact.
!!) what boolits should i use? and what alloy? 20 to 1 or 30 -1?
when using a 30 in 1 or pure lead. thank you.
but i want to buy another MGM barrel, a 38-55 win 
of what a cast boolit can do. i've only shot at one deer(165gr ranch dog 30-40 krag 95%lead, 2.5%tin and 2.5% antimony, i think its around 12-13bhn?) at 93 yards but it was amazing. front shoulder, thru the lungs and heart and out thru a rib. bang, splat, dead deer. i was worried about cast boolits not doing any damage, but i do now after leaving a one inch hole that exited out the deer. the meat that was wasted was only a fraction it could have been when using my 270 and 130gr bt.
now i'm pretty much settled down, groundhawgs and foxes don't count