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Post by Junior on Jan 11, 2021 1:20:52 GMT -7
Do to unfortunately circumstances, I recently broke the stock on big Remington 700 458 win mag. Not wanting to experience this again, I went ahead and ordered a new Hogue oversold stock for it.
This is going to lighten the rifle up quite a bit. The rifle has a heavy 24” barrel that’s magna ported. I’ve also always run a peep sight on this rifle.
Now, I’m going to be putting a 1-6x24 skinner optic on the rifle for testing and evaluation.
Which gets down to my point. Originally I was keeping the rifle the way it was since it was a safari grade, and I didn’t want to lower the value. Now that the fancy walnut stock is trash, I’m going to start building it into what I want. I believe the first will be to cut the barrel down to 20”. It’s always been nuzzle heavy, and it’s going to be worse with the lighter stock. I figure I’ll install a banded front sight on it, and a express rear. I’ll put the scope on with Q/D rings so that if need be I can pull it off in the field and have access to the irons.
Now for the questions. This gun, with the wood stock was absolutely brutal to shoot. I’m not guessing the hogue will tame it, and perhaps make it worse since it will most likely be lighter. I’m wondering if the magna porting really helps that much, or if just makes the rifle louder.
Any thoughts?
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Post by missionary on Jan 11, 2021 5:49:59 GMT -7
Never owned a ported and never will. My hearing and those around me is more important than my comfort. We never shoot heavy reoiling Big Bores never ever on a bench ! We use cross sticks. If we cannot group at 3 inches at 100 yards off cross sticks that rifle stays home or gets a shorter range limit to 3 inch groups. We shoot a 50 Alaskan, 375 H&H (3), 405 Winchester and others. All get fitted with a slip on reoil pad. The 50AK has a permanent pad. That rifle with a 525 grain at 1900 fps in an 1886 (jap) was awful on a bench on my massive 145 pounds. Off cross sticks it is no bruises or blood. The 405 is the same. Cross sticks and slip on no issue. Heaviest that rifle gets fed is 345 grains but 300 is more common. Cross sticks will take some getting used to but after some use you will get fine groups and be ready to shoot some more.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 11, 2021 10:47:53 GMT -7
Magna porting is a good system to re-direct recoil if you dont want to either add barrel length by adding a break or reducing usable barrel length by shortening the usable then adding the break to go back to original length. On big bore rifles the porting works especially the dual porting. It does work but to what end? The laws of physics can not be eliminated only re-directed. The porting does not work as a break does in that a break directs the gas upward and rearward. Directing the gas rearward in effect pushes the rifle forward canceling out some of the rearward energy of recoil. Remember one of Newtons laws "" to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"" The opposite effect of jetting some of the gas rearward toward the shooter is to thrust the launch platform forward away from the shooter thus not eliminating but redirecting recoil energy. With magna porting the gasses are not to any substantial degree being directed reward but instead only upward. The effect uf this jetting of gas upward just as Newton said has the opposite effect of thrusting the muzzle downward. This might be helpful in reducing muzzle rise for faster sight acquisition for fast follow up shots but it does little to nothing to re-direct the opposite reaction of jetting gas out the muzzle which is of course rearward thrust of the launch platform. Magna porting may in fact increase perceived recoil because where without the porting the recoil energy is being distributed in two directions upward and rearward where as with the porting recoil energy is mainly rearward straight back to the shooter. As to sound redirection I've not noticed much change with magna porting as with a break because the redirecting of gas is upward with the porting not rearward as with the break. I suspect the by going to a shorter un ported barrel perceived recoil may be less than with the longer ported barrel but for certain this applied only at equal weight . The reason I say this is because first as previously stated recoil energy will be distributed in two directions upward and rearward thus reducing the total of each. Second has to do with leverage and bullet dwell time in the barrel. The shorter barrel will have less leverage to push upward, remember Archimedes law. The shorter bullet dwell time means that there is a shorter duration of push from the opposite reaction of the bullet accelerating down the barrel. As to any possible loss of velocity from the shorter barrel I would expect very little. The reason again is physics related to the expansion ratio of the 45 caliber bore which is quite high compared to smaller bore diameters. Because of this high expansion ratio and usable case volume powder burn rate for efficiency is fairly fast at somewhere near the middle of the burn rate chart I would expect on both sides of 3031. So because of the burn rate of optimum powders for the cartridge a long barrel is not needed to achieve max velocity. For that reason I suspect a minimal velocity loss going to the shorter barrel length. Anyway these are my feelings on the subject but I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once before but I was incorrect.
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Post by Junior on Jan 12, 2021 0:52:40 GMT -7
Mostly I want to cut the barrel down to make the rifle handier for packing. I’ve decided to wait until the new stock comes in, and then cut the barrel down a inch at a time until I achieve the balance I want.
The truth of the matter is, The 458 is not lacking in power for the animals I have on my side of the planet, and I doubt a moose would notice if the bulletin is going a few feet per second slower as it makes a path all the way from now to stern.
I am slightly worried about the cheap factory synthetic stock not holding up though. We will see. I’m only into it for 40 bucks, so if I have to order a better stock later it won’t hurt too bad.
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Post by missionary on Jan 12, 2021 6:08:00 GMT -7
If a 400 gainer at 2000 fps will not sort things out crawl a few feet closer.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 12, 2021 8:59:54 GMT -7
2000 fps is within the realm of the 45-70 in the stronger guns with 400gn ish bullets. In a Marlin I always quit at about 1800 fps with a 400 +/- gn bullet In the Ruger #1. Browning/Winchester 1885, and Siamese Mauser 2000 is approaching the top. In a 458 win mag you get the same speed even a bit higher with a 500gn bullet. Still with big bores long barrels are not needed for ballistic performance. Expansion ratio is the ratio of unit of length to its internal volume. As bore diameter increases the internal volume for any given unit of length increases. As the volume increases it requires a faster powder burn rate to generate gas volume to build pressure at a normal rate. As an example lets look at a certain case commonly used in several calibers lets stay with the 458 to keep it simple. On this case starting at the small end of caliber we have the 264 Win mag, then the 7mm Rem mag, 308 Norma, 338 Win mag, 375/338, 416 Tayler and the 458 Win mag. Starting with the 264 and looking at the burn rate chart we find that optimum burn rate for the cartridge is at the very end of the chart with the slowest burning powders being optimal for achievable velocity for the cartridge. Then progressively as bore diameter increases with the same case volume the powder burn rate gets progressively faster to stay at top end achievable velocity for the cartridge. By the time we get to the 458 WM we are all the way past the middle of the burn rat chart on the faster end with powders as fast as 4198 to 3031 required to produce top end achievable velocities for the cartridge. In all these the case volume has stayed the same but the expansion ratio has progressively increased with bore diameter. For each case volume/bore diameter there is an optimal burn rate range and it is the bullet weight and bearing surface that will determine which powder in the proper burn rate range will achieve the highest velocity at normal chamber pressure with that bullet weight. So from this looking at the 458 WM with a bullet weight range of from 300gn to 600 gn and looking at the burn rate range outlined earlier what you would expect it that starting with the lighter end of bullet weight range you would go to the faster powder burn rate in the proper range in this case 4198 and as bullet weight increases go progressively slower in burn rate range to 3031 for the 500's Going to ridiculously heavy bullet weights may require even slower powders than outlined maybe as slow as 4895 to achieve top end obtainable velocity for the cartridge. Even so all these powders are well in the faster half of any burn rate chart you may look at. This is why I say that achievable velocity will not be appreciably affected by shortening the barrel by a few inches. So maybe your 4" shorter barrel will no longer get 2100 fps with a 500gn bullet and only achieve 2000 fps. But like you said I doubt the reaction from any moose will be any different.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 12, 2021 10:33:49 GMT -7
I am slightly worried about the cheap factory synthetic stock not holding up though. We will see. I’m only into it for 40 bucks, so if I have to order a better stock later it won’t hurt too bad. if not, you could always go to laminate. it will make it heavier, tho. richard's gun stocks ought to have factory seconds for that rifle. or go all out, purchase their new stocks. rifle-stocks.com/factory_seconds.htm
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 12, 2021 12:03:36 GMT -7
Some of those low end synthetic stocks are awfully tough. If you ever try to inlet one you will find out.
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Post by Junior on Jan 12, 2021 13:23:25 GMT -7
I forget what the powder charge is off the top of my head (I think 75 grains 😳) but I’ve pushed the 350gn Hornady out of this rifle at 2450 FPS out of this rifle using as much 4198 as I could crunch into the case. I would be Leary to shoot game with this load, but it is impressive none the less. It will shoot through two rail road tie plates stacked back to back. My hunting load pushes the 500 grain Hornady at 2200 FPS using H335.
I think I’m going to reinforce the stock a bit. I’ve glass bedded aluminum rods into the forend of cheaper stocks before with great success stiffening them up. I am going to do that to this stock, and I think I am also going to pull the butt plate off and fill the back of the stock with epoxy, and the insert a piece of 1/4” thick x 1” wife Aluminum flat bar. This should stiffen the stock up substantially, as well as add a little weight to it. From there, I’m gonna get the scope mounted and see how the balance it. If it’s still muzzle heavy, I’m gonna cut it off right behind the ports, and then start cutting it off 1” at a time until I get the balance I want. With that heavy barrel, taking one inch off is gonna make quite a bit of difference. Once I get the length I want, I’ll order a squaring tool and crown it.
I’ve been asking around. Most people who have chopped barrel back from 24 to 20” say they lost about 50 FPS, however some people claim to have gained a little bit of velocity.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 12, 2021 20:09:34 GMT -7
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 12, 2021 20:52:50 GMT -7
Looking at the 45-70 data shown there pretty much confirms what I have said. The velocity difference with the standard weight 405gn bullet from 24" @ 2039 fps to 20" @ 2020 fps is a loss of only 19 fps. The 250gn factory load at 2334 at 24" down to 2296 at 20" is a loss of 38 fps or about 10 fps per in of barrel reduction. I personally consider the 250gn load a novelty load outside the normal performance range of the 45-70 . I have put a lot of lead through a 45-70 and taken all manner of game that most folks will never have opportunity for and in my considerable experience the 400gn +/- weight is the most useful weight for all around use of a 45-70 and this preference holds true for all pressure ranges that 45-70 load data is available for. I have taken game with the RCBS 325gn, 425gn, and 525gn and all performed well but I feel the middle weight has the best balance for the cartridge as a hunting cartridge. Of all the bullets I have used in the 45-70 two stand out as favorites the RCBS 405 FN-GC actual weight 425gn and the NEI 500gn paper patch as designed by Mike Nesbit and Walt Melander. For a penetrating load the RCBS cast in clip on WW loaded to 1800 fps is a tremendously powerful load that will crush bone and tissue to an incredible depth. For an expanding load with good penetration I like the 500 NEI cast in nearly pure lead at 1550 fps from the Marlin. I used that load at very close quarters to stop a wounded grizzly and I can attest to its quick incapacitating power, well because I am here and the grizzly is not. Those are my two favorite bullets and loads for the Marlin 45-70 with which I would feel confident anywhere in the world. I also want to add that I recall reading in one of Elmer Keith's books that he was asked the question "" If you had to stop a charging grizzly what rifle/load would you most want to have in your hands " His answer was the Sharps 45/120/500. He was of course speaking of the original black powder load propelling the 500gn paper patch bullet to 1550 fps. I always figured if that load was good enough for Elmer it is sure good enough for me. After being there and doing that I agree with Elmer!
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Post by Junior on Jan 14, 2021 17:12:13 GMT -7
New stock showed up today. I did have to inlet it just. Bit, which was easily done with a wood dowel and some sand paper. The stock actually fits me quite a bit better then the factory wood stock did, and makes the rifle much easier on the shoulder. I would almost go as far as saying it is pleasant to shoot now compared to how it was before. It also balances better. As a matter of fact, it balances well enough I may end up not cutting the barrel down on it.
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Post by Junior on Jan 14, 2021 17:17:03 GMT -7
Man, I love this rifle 🤣🤣 I took the 458 out and fired about 20 rounds of various ammo. I gotta say, that new stock handles the recoil so much better then the factory wood. It’s a completely different rifle. I would even go as far as saying it is pleasant to shoot now. After firing quite a few rounds, I had one shot left in the gun of my hunting loads, loaded with a 350 grain Hornady round nose at close to 2700 FPS. I noticed my steel plate out there at 100 yards and fell to temptation. Normally I reserve the steel for pistols, and lead bullets only since it’s just a bunch of railroad tie plates welded into the shape of a silhouette. I centered the bead on the head of the target, and touched it off. I guess it’s safe to say it’s still sighted in. The funny part was after the shot I noticed bits of wood flying. That bullet travelled clean through the plate, but shed the jacket in the plate. It then continued through a pallet board and through a 8” spruce tree before hitting the sand pile, and I found it about 2” deep in the frozen sand.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 15, 2021 8:26:44 GMT -7
Now your ready to stop a charging V-8. I wonder how many cylinders of penetration you will get, maybe complete and into the tranny.
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Post by Junior on Jan 15, 2021 12:08:33 GMT -7
I’ve always told people this rifle would be my SHTF gun. They always get surprised, and ask why I wouldn’t go with some AR-15 or something like that.
And the answer is simple. Even if you are wearing body armor, and even if the rifle doesn’t penetrate it, I believe it would put a guy out of the fight with a good hit to the the chest.
Didn’t Clint Eastwood use a 458 in Dirty Harry?
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 15, 2021 13:18:45 GMT -7
Yes he did and when asked why he said "" cuz I can hit with it ""
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Post by missionary on Jan 15, 2021 19:09:05 GMT -7
About the only way to defeat the 458 would be to have a steel plate inside the armor to stop the chest slam and a very thick dense foam pad on your backside to absorb the slam your body will get impacting the ground. Or ride around in a main battle tank.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 16, 2021 11:26:41 GMT -7
why does my body shudder whenever someone says the words rifle and four and magnum in the same sentence?
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 16, 2021 11:39:43 GMT -7
We had a good friend in Alaska a commander Watkins that was the commander of a river runner in Nam, a river rat. He regularly hunted caribou with a 460 Weatherby. The thing is he only shot black powder in all his guns. He said basically he was shooting a 45-160-580 BN Flanged. He used our NEI 580gn DD bullets and said they worked a treat making tea cup size exit holes.
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Post by missionary on Jan 16, 2021 13:48:29 GMT -7
45-160 ! I like that ! Our 375 H&H in the 1885 Winchester (jap) when loaded with 3F and the 270 GR FN we call a 38-105.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 17, 2021 9:06:33 GMT -7
We had a good friend in Alaska a commander Watkins that was the commander of a river runner in Nam, a river rat. He regularly hunted caribou with a 460 Weatherby. The thing is he only shot black powder in all his guns. He said basically he was shooting a 45-160-580 BN Flanged. He used our NEI 580gn DD bullets and said they worked a treat making tea cup size exit holes. i was young and really really dumb once, when i shot the 460 weatherby death gun. i only shot it once, but that was enuff for me!!!
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Post by Junior on Jan 17, 2021 12:15:06 GMT -7
I really like the big guns. I shoot this 458 probably way more then I should.
I’m on the hunt for a cheap base rifle to build a 50 Alaskan on. As a young lad I saw first hand what happens when you smack a moose with a 50 AK and it left a lasting impression on using big guns for big animals.
I would settle for a 86 Winchester (The chances of finding one cheaper then a marlin are slim at best), but really want to do up a marlin guide gun in the 50 AK. So ive been watching and waiting for a cheap beat up guide gun for a build. I missed a 450 larkana a couple weeks ago that sold for 350 bucks locally.
I’ve thought about a bolt gun, but I’m trying to move away from right handed bolt guns, and I really don’t know a good base rifle available in left hand for a 50 ak build.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 17, 2021 12:34:46 GMT -7
I remember that cold wet September Alaska morning when we had to stop and build a fire to dry and warm our feet.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 17, 2021 20:19:33 GMT -7
I really like the big guns. I shoot this 458 probably way more then I should. I’m on the hunt for a cheap base rifle to build a 50 Alaskan on. As a young lad I saw first hand what happens when you smack a moose with a 50 AK and it left a lasting impression on using big guns for big animals. I would settle for a 86 Winchester (The chances of finding one cheaper then a marlin are slim at best), but really want to do up a marlin guide gun in the 50 AK. So ive been watching and waiting for a cheap beat up guide gun for a build. I missed a 450 larkana a couple weeks ago that sold for 350 bucks locally. I’ve thought about a bolt gun, but I’m trying to move away from right handed bolt guns, and I really don’t know a good base rifle available in left hand for a 50 ak build. i got an tc encore that has a 23" MGM barrel in 500 linebaugh. the 450gr lfn gc along with hs-6 does 1235fps. it ought to a great deer gun. i haven't shot a deer with it yet.
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Post by missionary on Jan 18, 2021 5:17:40 GMT -7
A 450 grain caliber .50 slug chugging along at 1250 fps will drop anything anywhere on our side of this planet. Think 50-90 BP ! 95% of all critters in our whole world would be well Thwaped !
I second the 50 Alaskan for all types of hunting. If you were to find and ugly 336 receiver you have all you need to get going.. A 1895 receiver would require less internal modifications. An 1886 is alot of work and much more $$$ for the receiver. I did it. Round Ball at 700 fps for little critters. 2 RB's or a 350 grainer for bigger critters like corn crunchers but upped to 1200 fps. Same 350-450 grainers at 1500 fps for whatever else that eats green stuff (Martains included). Then for those others that just may want to eat me, 450-525 FN grainers at 1700 - 1800 +fps. Yahoooo! One rifle will do it all.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 18, 2021 8:39:03 GMT -7
Dont leave out the 700 gn bullets for splitting fire wood. I once built a 50 AK on a Siamese Mauser and loaded our 700gn bullet to 1800 fps. I would save up the worst knotty pieces of wood until a real cold day then stand them up and shoot directly into a know. That split them real nice and was ever so much more fun than a splitting mall.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 18, 2021 9:45:06 GMT -7
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Post by missionary on Jan 18, 2021 10:31:35 GMT -7
That would cover all the bases !! Ready to cast and reload. I always like those set ups.
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Post by missionary on Jan 18, 2021 10:34:17 GMT -7
At the present moment I am happy to announce the 525s at 1850 fps are all the fun I need But next time I need the knotty wood split I will give you a call.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 18, 2021 11:48:45 GMT -7
Have gun will travel reads the card of a man, a Knight without armor in a savage land.
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