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Post by Bullshop on Dec 18, 2020 16:37:29 GMT -7
Very recently I became the well pleased owner of a Pioneer Products mold. This mold is a quality product made with precision and a pleasant experience to use. It is a nose pour design with a very unique alignment system. In addition to two conventional alignment pins it uses a v block system at its base to pull the blocks together for perfect positive alignment. This mold produced bullets with perfect square bases of match quality in every way. It is of course a single cavity mold dropping 32 caliber bullets of 190gn in a soft alloy that taper from .323" at their base to .316" at the lead drive band with a spitzer nose and being a nose pour have a small meplate.. These shiny lead pills of beauty are pleasant to look at but being a shooter the desire to use them as intended for breach seating was overwhelming. Not being in possession of a suitable rifle to exploit the accuracy potential of these interesting bullets I decided I had to at least try them in my early Marlin 32 Special with 24" barrel/ Firs attempt was with fixed ammo loaded long so they had to be single loaded into the chamber. This rifle has a fat brass bead front sight so not the best for precision target work but at least did show accuracy potential. This was put up with a charge of 8.5gn IMR-SR 4756 and considering the crude front sight shot surprisingly well. Alas in fixed ammo this tapered bullet has a short fall in bullet alignment. For that reason and because in spite of its short fall it shot well I decided I had to try breach seating the bullets ahead of a charged case just the way it was done in the heyday of shuitzen competition. To accomplish this I made a simple breach seating tool by filling a 32 special case with lead extending about .1" past the case mouth. The un-sized cases were primed and charged with the same load of 8.5gn SR 4756 then cases filled with Styrofoam packing popcorn. This loading method produced very respectable accuracy even with the beach ball front sight bead. This success has now prompted me to consider mounting a target scope on the old Marlin to investigate the full accuracy potential of breach seating these bullets in the old Marlin. I think as an additional accuracy aid I will also remove the fore end and magazine tube to eliminate any possible inconsistencies in the assembly. Breach seating has great potential because the bullet is fully in the barrel before shooting so there is no chance of its base being distorted while transitioning from the case to the barrel passing the lead of the chamber where the base for that instant can bump up larger than barrel groove diameter then squeeze back down entering the rifling where the outside edge of the bullet base case be distorted in the process. The larger the throat lead diameter of the chamber the greater the potential for bullet base distortion when shooting fixed ammo. In breach seating the potential simply does not exist because the bullet base is already past the throat lead section and fully protected and aligned in the barrel. Another benefit of breach seating bullets is there is absolutely no need for case prep accept possibly to uniform the primer pocket. As for things like case length, and neck wall thickness they just don't matter because case fit to chamber is irrelevant. There is also no need for case sizing at all so case life will be exceptionally long. There are just a lot of wins there. So dear friends you can expect a second future installment to this in the near future, Lord willing! I have an old Weaver T-20 that I hope to mate with the Marlin 32-special minus its front end gear for accuracy testing. I dont expect this to shoot as well as my Sharps Zichang 32-40 no longer in my possession but it will be interesting to see just how well a plain Jane old Marlin 32 special can shoot with slight non-permanent modification. We shall see !
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Post by missionary on Dec 19, 2020 5:28:37 GMT -7
Well Dan you have put another "give it a whirl" idea into my thinker. For that absolute "no excuse" hunting shots I can see a good application I wonder how a "critter cop" would view a "stuck bullet" in the barrel ?
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 19, 2020 10:26:18 GMT -7
Interesting to note that in the target shooting game of the day that even before the bullet breach seating of the bullet independent of the charged case that muzzle loading of the bullet was the normal procedure in the loading of thoroughbred target rifles using a charged case introduced at the breach. It required a bit more tooling than breach seating but was the accepted accuracy standard. It too offered the same benefits to protecting the bullet base, the steering end of the bullet from the possibility of deformation from being fired in fixed ammo. It also fully pre-engraved the bullet but did not require a tapered bullet The possible short fail of loading the bullet from the muzzle is that for ease of loading the bullet was never larger than barrel groove diameter and most often smaller so dependent on obturation for accuracy. Rifles intended for muzzle loading of the bullet did have a false muzzle that went from smooth bore to full rifling depth in its length. The false muzzle was a short section cut from the same barrel then mated with a set of pins that corresponded to a set of holes at the muzzle of the barrel. In use it accurately slipped on for loading then off for shooting. The false muzzle usually had some kind of protrusion that would be visible through the sights so that the shooter would not forget to remove it before shooting then have to go searching for it down range. What is interesting to me is that the folks shooting these muzzle loading cartridge guns grew up shooting muzzle loaders and still felt that introducing the bullet from the muzzle had the greatest potential for accuracy over any fixed ammo. One can not deny the accuracy of a well tuned muzzle loading target rifle of the type used by the Irish shooting team at the first international Creedmoor match of 1874. My 451 Gibbs rifle continues to enlighten me on the accuracy potential of these type rifles.
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Post by missionary on Dec 19, 2020 16:10:16 GMT -7
Dan you are a wealth of shooters knowledge. We have Ned Roberts fine book about muzzle loading rifles. I have seen a couple false muzzle cap locks for sale over the years and more rifles with the two holes in the barrel but no false muzzle unit. It all makes alot of sense once the idea is understood. The 1819 Hall breach loading rifles have the last 5 inches of the barrel with no rifling... those 5 inches are the groove diameter The idea was a trooper could always muzzle load easily that way if need be. The ball supplied was right at groove diameter but the chamber was also groove diameter Very accurate rifles.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 19, 2020 17:20:50 GMT -7
Thank you Brother Mike ! I like to think that I have not wasted my time in learning. It seems that perhaps the Lord has steered me in this direction because for me this has always been interesting and easy to learn. I likely have very poor memory retention on subjects I do not find interesting but on the subject of guns and shooting my memory retention is acutely sharp. I cant really say for what reasons the Lord has nudged me in this direction of learning but we do know if it is of him he has a purpose. Then again just as for any father it pleases him to give his children the desires of our heart.
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Post by missionary on Dec 20, 2020 9:20:36 GMT -7
Another right observation !
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 20, 2020 16:52:09 GMT -7
Today we made some progress on this project. We have mounted a very nice Leupold scope in variable power from 6.5x to 20x. This scope has a fine cross hair so well suited to target shooting. We removed the entire fore end assembly including mag tube and parts as well as the wood fore end proper. In so doing I took note that on one side of the barrel there is a shiny rub mark about 3" long. This is something I had suspected but have never addressed. The rifle in 32 special with 24" barrel has never been a great shooter only just a so so shooter and that shiny rub mark may be the root of that issue. Shooting started today with the same load as previously with the 190gn Pioneer bullet breach seated ahead of a case charged with 8.5gn of SR 4756. This load shot well but also provided a learning experience. The issue that came up was that the load produced insufficient chamber pressure to seal the case necks to the chamber wall so allowed pressure and soot between the case neck and chamber wall causing some of the case necks to collapse at the case mouth. All cases were dirty even the ones that did not collapse. Adding powder to increase chamber pressure to get those pesky necks to seal started to scatter shots so there was not going to be a win found in SR 4756 powder. I likely could have addressed that issue in a couple ways by annealing the well used and work hardened case necks or possibly by flaring the case mouth so there would be noticeable drag on chambering, sort of a pre expanding of the necks if you will. I chose neither of those options and went with plan C to simply switch to a faster powder burn rate. Seemingly judging from the results Trail Boss powder was the right choice because it not only eliminated the collapsed case necks it also grouped beyond expectation. We are moving this along slowly doing all preliminary shooting from 50 yards but even so the 5 shot group shown fired at 50 yards is very respectable in fact the best this rifle has ever done. As earlier stated I cant just yet put all the accuracy improvement credit on just the bullets and or loading system because simply removing the fore end assembly may show an equal improvement in accuracy with conventional ammo. We will certainly have to look into that. As the target shows the load is 8gn Trail Boss powder, case filled with PP, RP 9 1/2 LR primer, 190gn Pioneer tapered bullet lubed with NASA and breach seated .050" ahead of the charged case. I am pleased with the results and am anxious to refine a load to perfection for 100 yard shooting which we plan to do soon. Shooting this load is very easy in that its report is something between a 22 LR and 22 Mag. A little more than a 22 LR but lacking the supersonic crack of the 22 mag. Its a fun way to use a lever gun for target shooting so fun in fact that I suspect the fore end assembly will remain put away for awhile. Tomorrow the Missus has some slave labor lined up for me so don't know when I will get back to this but I am chomping at the bit to do so. BTW in the picture is my breach seating tool. If you look closely you can see the lead protruding .050" past the case mouth.
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Post by missionary on Dec 21, 2020 3:29:24 GMT -7
I would like to see a photo of that "Target rig"..... Especially with that Leupold sitting on top !
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2020 11:32:53 GMT -7
I would like to see a photo of that "Target rig"..... Especially with that Leupold sitting on top ! Ask and ye shall be given
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2020 11:45:48 GMT -7
Oh and something else I wanted to point out that you might find interesting is that this rifle is stamped, "" micro groove barrel "" So much for that old myth ah!
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Post by todddoyka on Dec 21, 2020 12:08:46 GMT -7
i understand why you took off magazine tube , heck, i'd do it too, but the hunter in me is going .
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2020 14:40:34 GMT -7
Takes all of ten minutes to re-install. I think in the end this project will also benefit the hunting version with fore end installed because now I believe I know where the problem with so so accuracy is. That 3" shiny rub mark on one side of the barrel tells the tale.
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Post by missionary on Dec 21, 2020 15:30:04 GMT -7
Thank you for the photo Dan That is about what I thought we would see... The scope is half the length of the barrel... But they sure do the job.
There is more than several lever flippers I have removed wood and / or metal from to get those beasts to shoot consistent. Our worst is a Marlin 36A we had JES rebore to .411 as it was a rusty bore 30-30. Excavated wood from the fore arm then metal from the nose cap. Only took several hours but it will shoot those 265 grain FNGC slugs into groups instead of just "good area coverage".
And I agree with your Micro Groove findings. Just needs a fat enough cast to grip the barrel / rifling tight enough. Unless the chamber is so fat there is little hope..
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2020 16:57:13 GMT -7
The bullets I am using are from A Fred Leith nose pour mold. The bullet tapers from .323" at the base to .316" at the lead drive band. They are lubed with our soft Nasa black powder lube but not sized in a .323" die. The alloy is a soft BHN-9 so with the tapered design and soft alloy they seat fully into the barrel easily. I just drop a bullet into the chamber nose first then drop in the seater and squeeze the lever closed. Next step is to eject the seater and replace with a charged case and your ready to fire. I have not slugged this barrel but would guess somewhere between .321" to .323" grooves. Something the old timers learned early on and I believe Ned Roberts spoke of it in one of his books is that if the bullet diameter starts out very much over groove diameter it can cause finning at the bullet base where each land mark is. These fins seldom even around the bullets circumference can cause flyers. For best results the bullet base needs to remain as perfect as possible during it flight and fin extensions on one side of the bullet are a detriment to fine accuracy. Historically target shooters of the day used bullet diameter at or slightly less than groove diameter with soft alloy that would easily upset to the grooves. Some of the first micro groove barrels not known as such but the same principle applied with multiple shallow groove rather than few deeper cut ones. The idea was that the shallow grooves would be less deforming to bullets for best target work and the idea was introduced by one of the best and most sought after by serious target shooters none other than the master Harry Pope. Think on this for a bit, one of the most famous groups ever fired and which stood unbeaten for nearly five decades was known as the Rowland Pope group. This fired by a Dr. Rowland in a Pope barreled I believe 1885 Winchester chambered in 38-55 wcf. The group was I believe somewhere around .375" for 10 shots fired at 40 rods 220 yards burning black powder for fuel and using iron sights. That was an incredible feat of marksmanship but equally dependent on the quality of the Pope barreled rifle with Harry's version of micro groove rifling.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2020 21:14:44 GMT -7
I found this, I was wrong on the caliber it was a 32-40. I was also wrong on the rifle it was a Ballard. Another thing I might have been wrong about is the length of time this stood as a record. I said five decades but it may have been closer to seven decades.
The Ultimate in Rifle Precision
By: Townsend Whelen
Sportsman's Press, 1951
THE WORLD'S RECORD AT 200 YARDS
American riflemen have always considered the group of ten shots at 200 yards fired by Mr. C. W. Rowland of Boulder, Colorado on May 16, 1901 as being the World's Record for accuracy. Other rifles and ammunition which have made records at longer distances have never equaled this at 200 yards, and thus we think that this target can be properly regarded as The Record.
Mr. Rowland's target, which is reproduced here in the exact size from the original, was shot with a .32-40 breech-muzzle loading barrel made by H. M. Pope, in a Ballard action. It was shot from a machine rest, probably the Pope rest, in which the naked barrel is uniformly rested at the breech and close to the muzzle, the rifle being shot with its butt-stock on it, and the butt-plate being caught and braked by the hand after a short recoil travel. The charge was a lead alloy bullet of unknown weight (probably 180 to 200 grains) lubricated with Leopold's lubricant (same as the present Ideal Lubricant), and propelled by a charge of Hazards FG black powder. The bullet was loaded from the muzzle in the usual Pope manner, and the case filled with powder inserted from the breech. Mr. Rowland has noted the weather as “No wind,” and “Sprinkling;” conditions most favorable for black powder.
Mr. Rowland's target has been measured very carefully. There is no way to measure it with a great degree of accuracy that I know of, so I will outline the manner in which it was measured. We made this assumption: in the target above the record target there is one distinct bullet hole. The assumption is that this shot displaced the same amount of paper as the shots in the record target. This seems to be a safe assumption as presumably the rifle, paper and bullet were the same.
We measured this single hole quite carefully”€optically under 4X magnification. The average diameter of this hole is .245-inch. Then we carefully measured the extreme spread of the record group”€that is the extreme of the displaced paper. This figure is .970-inch. Subtracting the diameter of a single bullet hole (.245” displaced paper) gives an extreme spread, center to center, of .725-inch for the Rowland record group.
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