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Post by todddoyka on Sept 1, 2016 17:48:41 GMT -7
well my 38-55 win has to be put on the backshelf for now. for several weeks, i have been researching two black powder cartridges, the 577 snider(snider enfield mkII 1867 rifle) and a 50-90(110) sharps(tc encore with a 27" MGM barrel with a 1 in 28" twist). i'm "probably" going to go with the 50-90 sharps, but i would like to know if anyone has a sharps or a snider?
also if i do go to the 50-90 sharps, what kind of "iron" sights do i get? MGM will put them on, i have to buy them. what boolit should i get for deer/black bear out to 150-200 yards? target practice(200 yards+) will be informal and fun!
now i do like the 577 snider but it will cost a little too much. a antique sharps rifle is way, way beyond my means(i have a limited budget because i am disabled). a MGM barrel goes around $400. i plan on starting the barrel, reloading stuff and extras next year. i still have alot on my plate that i have to buy.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 1, 2016 18:03:31 GMT -7
I had for a short time an MGM Encore barrel in 50-70 Gov. It was a carbine length barrel with light contour. For me it was too light and punishing even with moderate loads. The Encore with modern brass in 50-70 will handle pressures three times greater than the cartridge was originally intended for. With those type of loads a person would have to have sadistic tendencies to even consider shooting them. That said the 50-90 on the same platform is a magnum version of the shorter kin. The 50-70 case is 1.75" length and the 50-90 is 2.5" If I were to try again with an Encore I would stay with the shorter case because if your shooting smokeless powder it has all the room you need. I would also go with a very heavy contour to add as much weight as possible. I like shooting. For me its the most fun thing I can do with my clothes on. When shooting hurts its no longer fun.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 1, 2016 18:26:25 GMT -7
i plan on using black powder instead of the smokeless varity . my encore(the 444 marlin with 23" MGM/ 3-9x leopuld) is about 8-9 lbs, most of it comes from the high plains gun stock laminate with a limbsaver. i might go to unique or something simliar. MGM does not have the 50-70 gov anymore. it does have 50-110 sharps or the 50-90sharps. i hope it doesn't hurt with black powder!!! i forgot about the PAST magnum recoil pad ! i bought it when i got the 444 marlin, i've used it 2 or 3 times and then i put it back in the drawer.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 2, 2016 7:29:52 GMT -7
In determining recoil energy part of the equation is total projectile weight. This will include the total weight of the bullet, powder charge, and any wad material that may be used. A 90gn weight charge of black powder that may produce the same velocity as say a 17gn charge of Unique will have far more recoil because the total projectile weight is much higher with the BP load even though the actual bullet weight and velocity is the same. With the 50-90 at 2.5" case length you could if the situation called for also use 50-70 at 1.75" case length ammo. With the 50-110 at 2.4" case length you can also use 50 AK at 2.2" case length. The rims are different so all will not safely interchange due to head space difference.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 2, 2016 14:28:02 GMT -7
so what you are saying is i can buy a 50-90 sharps from MGM, i can use a 50-70 gov also?
kind of like the 44 rem mag using a 44 sp? which by the way, i love that 44 special so much, that i forget to even use the 44 mag. my sbh(44 sp) using 7.5gr of unique and a 250gr mihek hp(that you have provided, thank you by the way!!!) goes roughly from a 3 legged bog pod gets appox 1 1/2" at 50 yards. i can hit a 6"-6" target at 30 yards with only one hand(have disablity).
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 2, 2016 15:37:43 GMT -7
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 2, 2016 16:50:53 GMT -7
i have a 22-250ai (tc encore, one of MGM's barrel) that is .810" at the muzzle(heavy factory barrel) and its 27" long. since i don't use it(have the 20 vartarg), i could rebarrel it to the 50-70 gov. i have to call JES reboring to see if it all possible to take a 22-250ai to 50-70 gov.
although i do like the 50-110 sharps, i am figuring on using a 400-500gr boolit along a bunch of black powder. i'm pretty sure i can go to unique but i want a top trapdoor load(something along the line of 2400). i would like to try black powder first tho. what type of range in the 50-70 gov does a person have when killing a deer? if its around 150 yards, then i'm in!
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 3, 2016 7:34:10 GMT -7
Yes 50-70 Gov and 50-90 Sharps use the same rim so the same relationship exists as with the 44 mag/special. Reading the link you provided it says the 5-90, 50-100, and 50-110 Sharps all use the same case with different charges of powder and bullet weight. This may be true but the 50-110 Winchester uses a different case that is shorter by .1" than the Sharps version with thinner and smaller diameter rim. This being the case the 50-110 Sharps and 50-110 Winchester are completely different cartridges. The 50-110 Winchester was an express loading for the model 1886 Winchester rifle. The express loading used a very light for caliber bullet pushed as fast as black powder could make it go. I have an original mold for the 50-95 Winchester in the model 1876 rifle express loading and the same bullet was used for the 50-110 express loading in the Win model 1886. This mold cast in pure lead drops a bullet at about 300gn. With alloyed lead like enriched WW at about 280gn. These express rifles used not only the light bullets but also used very slow twist rifling that would only stabilize these light for caliber bullets. Heavier longer bullets would just tumble from these barrels. The 45-90 Winchester for the model 1886 rifle was another express loading that used a slower that standard twist. It would handle up to about a 350gn bullet. The rifles of these models that I have seen have been stamped with the word express with the caliber stamping. The express stamping designates the slow rifling twist rate.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 3, 2016 13:20:43 GMT -7
i thought about using 50-110 win but i liked the sharps better(don't know why, i just do). now that i think about it, a 50-70 gov with a boolit that goes 400-500gr that will kill a deer at 200 yards or closer(150 yards is about right tho) is basically all i need. shooting at paper 200+ yards is something i like to do, but isn't required. i chose the 50-90 sharps(-100 and -110) because of MGM prices(around $400). a bullberry is $600+ and i could get a 50-70 gov, but being the tight wad that i am , i think JES can take my 22-250ai and rebore it to 50-70 gov. but i have to make sure that JES can do it. i've tried to sell the 22-250ai but no one wanted it. i'll call JES up on tuesday to make sure. that 22-250ai barrel has been sitting in my safe 2+ years now. i haven't shot it, i don't even have the dies or brass. i have the 20 vartarg and it does everything i want it to do. anyhoo, thanks for the info on the 50-90 sharps/50-70 gov!!! what boolit and alloy do you consider for the 50-70 gov? i don't think it will be a gas check boolit, because it will only go around 1200 - 1400fps. all of this will be new to me, black powder inside of a cartridge case, so i am ready to listen and learn.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 3, 2016 15:49:12 GMT -7
The old stand by in the Lyman/Ideal 515141 has always been a good performer. It will run 425 to 450gn depending on the alloy used. It is a near copy of the original arsenal design for the 50-70 sans the hollow base. I once shot an elk with an original Sharps conversion carbine in 50-70. The load was 60gn of Goex FG with the 515141. Distance was maybe 35 yards for the shot. Shot angle was straight on and the bullet landed center of the chest and exited through the fertilizer vent. Velocity was about 1000 fps. Small bull just tipped over side ways and was done. That bullet in air cooled WW or even softer down to pure lead will work fine at 1200 to 1400 fps. I sell a lot of conical bullets cast in pure lead to the ML guys and they do some good shooting to about 1500 fps. I personally started shooting paper patch bullets in these type of cartridges for hunting and those are now my preference. I believe all the ammo produced by the Sharps company used paper patch bullets. We are certainly not short on designs in both lube groove and paper patch type in 50 caliber.
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Post by missionary on Sept 6, 2016 5:30:35 GMT -7
Good morning The 50 Alaskan ALSO HAS THE SAME RIM. ( No good cap lock) Have a long time shooting friend Dan who has a 50-90 on an original Sharps 74 frame. Was there yesterday to keep him posted on my 50 Alaskan on a Win 86 (jap) frame. JES did the bore and chamber. Has the 26 inch Octagon barrel that absorbs a lot of the recoil from the 525 grain GC I am launching. Will write more later. Mike
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Post by missionary on Sept 6, 2016 23:59:43 GMT -7
Good morning For my all and anything plinker in the 50 Alaskan I am shooting a 410 grain flat nose plain base bullet. Mold is an LBT .512 400 LFN. From WW + 1 % tin this one drops at 411 grains. Have no doubt this bullet running at 1400 fps will go through any 250 pound plus white tail from any angle. Would make a fine "shoulder bullet". Have not yet cast any of range scrap but will and try to get a yote to call into it. ILLinois does not yet trust us to blast corn crunchers with center fire rifles. My other bullet I use in the 50 AK for now is a NEI .510 520 grain RNGC that drops at 525 when cast from WW + 25% Lino. This is the "Toyoto Stopper". Water dropped it hardens at .517. Two stage diameter reduction with a .515 then .512 die makes it much easier. Again cast from range scrap one day I would expect it to weigh near 540 grains and be deadly on any critter this side of our world north or south. At 1400 fps there is no elk, moose or foraging bear that would need to be feared. With the single shots you have that capacity to seat the cast out long so powder capacity is not going to be a problem. In the 50 AK I have just so much space in the 86 Winchester to work with. So far is not an issue. But in a single shot I would use the slowest powder possible to get my velocity and smile a bunch at the reduced recoil pulse.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 7, 2016 15:21:49 GMT -7
JES doesn't like to do tc encore because of the front screws go into the barrel, making it unsafe, bore goes from 22-250ai to 50-70 government. jess is very honest and that should and can be one of the best traits he has. so i am going to go with a 27" MGM barrel in 50-90 sharps(1 in 28" twist). it will take a few months more but i will have it. i do like the lyman 515141(thanks again bullshop) so i will be using it in my 50-90 sharps. although i don't have sgp blackpowder cartridges reloading primer yet, what type of black powder do i use? is it fg or ffg? i plan on going about 1100-1200fps with a lyman 515141.
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 7, 2016 16:25:59 GMT -7
The more F's there are the higher the pressure will be for any given volume. For the load I mentioned using the original 50-70 Sharps carbine I was shooting the 515141 with 60gn FG actual weight not volume measurement and it shot through the elk length wise.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 7, 2016 17:10:56 GMT -7
ok, i was wondering about that. i'm learning, tho i still have much to learn!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 7, 2016 18:53:03 GMT -7
The f's are a reference to the size of the kernels of the powder. The more F's the smaller the kernels. The smaller the kernels the more actual weight there will be for a given volume. That is the reason I said the more F's the higher the pressure because more F's means more actual weight per given volume. Its kinda like filling a case with a large kernel extruded smokeless powder and filling the same case with fine ball powder. The ball powder of the same volume will weigh more because it more densely fills the case than the extruded powder.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 7, 2016 19:04:21 GMT -7
i've been thinking about the 50-90 sharps and i think it will be a little too punishing on me(recoil wise, stroke). i have not been able to scratch the .510" with bp itch. i have come to two prelimary conclusions. i know i should be beatin' but am i able to use black powder in the 500 linebaugh? or the 500 s&w? 500 linebaugh case is only 1.405" , far from the 50-90 sharps(2.491") and only less than the 50-70 govt(1.75"). 500 s&w case(.500") is 1.625" which is close(not quiet, but close) to the 50-70 govt. case diameter is roughly .010". this will be in a tc encore MGM rifle barrel(20+", still deciding) the 500 linebaugh will probably use the lyman 515141 and the 500 s&w will probably use a boolit in the 300-400gr range. but i do like the 500 linebaugh. the bore is .510" compared to .500". i know, i know..."should i just beat him or what."
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 8, 2016 5:52:55 GMT -7
You wont get any beatings here. Funny you make the comparison of the 500 S&W to the 50-70 gov. That is exactly the thought I had when they announced the cartridge. They could have just stayed with the 50-70 but then someone would have put the modern high pressure S&W version in an old Trap Door and BOOM!!! There was also the legal angle with BATF classifying any rifled bore/groove over .500" diameter as a destructive device and so requiring special permits. I think that any pre existing cartridges received a grandfather clause so are still with us but post batf ruling no new civilian developments over .500" groove. Darn, you can forget about that 800 nitro you were considering. If you go with the S&W you can always have a custom mold made for the 515141 design but at about .502" diameter. Even with the shorter case Linebaugh you will have plenty of case volume for good velocity with smokeless powder. With black powder its hard telling what kind of velocity you might get. With the limited case volume is where you reverse directions with black powder. With an extra large case volume you would want to stay with a large grained powder like FG but with the smaller case volume to keep the pressure up you would go with a much smaller grain powder like FFFG or even possibly FFFFG to get comparably high velocity as the larger case. One consideration will be rifling twist rate and black powder fouling. A faster twist rate combined with a more dense powder will equate to more fouling. Black powder fouling is one of the reasons original BP cartridges used the very minimum of twist rate to stabilize the intended bullet length. A faster twist rate gives more surface area for fouling to build on. A good example in cartridge history is the 30-30 and the 32 special. Though basically the same cartridge shooting the same bullet weight the 30-30 used a 1-10" twist while the 32 special used a 1-16" twist. The reason for the different twist was powder type to be used. At the time of development not everyone was ready to accept smokeless powder for loading ammo. The 32 special was for the stubborn older folks (like me) that didn't trust the new powder and wanted to keep using BP in loading their ammo. You can still load BP in both but the faster twist of the 30-30 will foul more quickly and to a greater degree than the 32.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 8, 2016 12:14:57 GMT -7
but i wanna get the 950 jdj!!!! double OUCH!!! thank you, but nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.... i really wasn't into the 500 s&w(1 in 19" twist), but i am sorta interested in the 500 linebaugh(1 in 28" twist). since i have had a stroke, the 500 L with a 22+" MGM barrel will take either unique or 2400 type of load to keep it managable. i do have geox ffg and ffffg, maybe i will try it out on the 500 L. since i will be using it for deer, i'm guessing that a 500 L (rifle) will go 100-125 yards(being unique or some other type or bp). 150 yards might be doable. i think that i'm going to go with open sights, the peep sight is better for me. i'm also guessing the lyman 515141 will go roughly at 1100-1300fps , the 1100fps using unique will be a blue ribbon moment! i still have to do alot of work but i think i can do 1100fps. i don't know if bp will go that high, but 900-1000fps will be alright too. i am also thinking that a full bull barrel will be a little better than a heavy factory barrel. it will mean getting a new forearm from high plains gunstocks . so what do you think? bp or smokeless? does the range seem right? are peep sights better than open sights? this is still a preliminary thing, the barrel has to be built first.....
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