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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2015 15:08:28 GMT -7
Awhile back came up with a Ruger No. 3 that had left the factory with a .44 magnum chamber. The previous owner's father had the chamber opened up to .444 Marlin ni 1980, by Mashburn Arms (been awhile since I'd heard their name - I have the Work Order paperwork from them that came with the carbine).
I have been reading around on the internet (they tell the truth on there ya know!) about 1:38" twist and cast bullet use. As expected: one's mileage may vary!
One thing that seemed to be mentioned often enough is the use of short/fat cast bullets with the 1:38" twist, giving decent accuracy.
I use to shoot a first run (1967-68 vintage) Marlin in .444 Marlin. Previous owner had the barrel cut back from 24" to 18", this made it handier when getting in n' out of his CJ-5 Jeep with a hard top. Now that was one handy short rifle. Then my brother talked me out of it! Of course I could borrow it anytime I wanted to, so that worked. After he passed away the short rifle .444 Marlin got away somewhere long ago. When the opportunity to obtain this Ruger No. 3 that had the chamber opened up to .444 Marlin came along, it came home with me. Have lonnng been a fan of the Ruger No. 3.
Back to a potential cast bullet for this Ruger No. 3, I'm thinking along the lines of the Ranch Dog 265 gr and/or the Ranch Dog 300 gr to use? I'm open to lighter weight bullets as well. Not out to make heavy/fast loads, but in the 1,400 - 1,600 fps range. As many folks are aware of, loading Ruger No. 3's with heavy loads to slay Mastodon's is not always friendly to one's shoulder! The old standard of using 10.0 grs of Unique (or a bit more) with light bullets for plinking loads shall be worked on also.
Would appreciate input from all comers on this. By chance anyone have a Ruger No. 3 that has the chamber opened up to .444 Marlin?
thank you for your time n' knowledge shared,
outsidebear
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Post by Junior on Dec 27, 2015 15:12:28 GMT -7
I'm a fan of as heavy of a bullet I can get away with when shooting cast. (I'm the other way around with jacketed) So the first mold I would reach for would me that 300 gn ranchdog.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 27, 2015 16:45:08 GMT -7
I believe the earlier Marlin rifles in 444 had the same twist as your Ruger #3. I understand they now come with a faster twist. Anyhoo using the older 444 Marlin as my yardstick in measuring bullet performance my experience has been that some 300 + or - gn 44 cal bullets at times give sub par accuracy for what ever reasons, planetary alignment or what ever.
Other issues that you will not experience are with feeding the WFN type meplate. Because as I said my 444 experience is with a Marlin I have come to favor a Saeco design that I will call an RF design but with smaller meplate than is normal for this design. Because Saeco offers this design in 300gn and 265gn it became my favorite for the 444 because it feeds real well in both 44 mag and 444 Marlin and one of the two weights is appropriate for what ever twist may be encountered.
Being a single shot you will be guided by a different set of rules but if this were my undertaking without question my search would begin with the 265gn Saeco. Both molds I have are for gas check type bullets but I believe Saeco offers this design in both plain base and gas check.
There may be other things to consider like throating and bore/groove dimensions but those aside and assuming all to be normal I would start with the Saeco 265gn and use it gas checked for top end loads and without the checks for moderate loads under 1500 fps. OH yea almost forgot, and you know where you can get some. |
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Post by todddoyka on Dec 30, 2015 12:09:26 GMT -7
i have a 444 marlin in tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel with a 1 in 20" twist. the 275gr ranch dog really work for me. the 1 in 38" goes to about 320-350gr, while the 1 in 20" goes roughly 420+grs.
i would like to shoot the 400+gr bullets, but those of us that are disabled(had a stroke, right arm/leg don't work) leave the heavy loads to those that are better, have right arm/leg, equipeded for it. i would like to shoot a few of them with trail boss and unique tho!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 19:10:45 GMT -7
todddoyka: appreciate the sharing about your .444 Marlin. Wasn't really l@@king for a .444 Marlin anything, when the Ruger No. 3 was offered to me at a very-very reasonable price, one too good to pass up! I've a great fondness for Ruger No. 3's, ever since first them at the display booth in the spring of 1972 NRA Portland, Oregon annual show. Their stock fits 'me' quite well, as does the similar stock designs of the Trapdoor and Peabody. I've most always been a fan of a carbine (with them lonnnng barreled rifles, when holding them horizontally, you can't run between 2 trees in the woods without getting hung up!!  ), and the Ruger No. 3 shape I've been using since the 1970's. That this No. 3 I was being offered had the chamber opened up to .444 Marlin didn't slow me down at all! It'll be when the snow's gone before I get a real chance to get out n' do some shooting with it, but would like to load some rounds up ahead of time this winter. You mention the 1:38" twist goes to about 320-350gr. That area of bullet weight would be readily agreeable for my use. I remember how the Hornady 265gr JSP worked and performed years ago, and grew quite fond of that bullet back when I used it. Most likely will get a few of the SAECO 265gr pills from our host of the Forum here, for a starting attemt. As the late Paul Mathews use to do with his Ruger No.3 in .45-70, use a 300 gr cast bullet over 10.0 grs of Unique for his daily n' plinking/practice load, then a heavier load for hunting. I see this as being my approach to this No. 3 .444 Marlin carbine, though with lighter weight cast bullets for practice/plinking, say in the 240 gr area, then move up to265-300 gr for a dedicated hunting bullet weight. |
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Post by todddoyka on Dec 30, 2015 20:17:21 GMT -7
i have a ruger #1 in 270 that was too good to pass up too. up to about 350gr it should work, meaning it doesn't keyhole. i try to keep my boolits(275 &280gr) around 2000 fps. this year i may knock it down to around 1800fps. the triple 4 is a close range kinda gun. over a 150 yards the 6.5 creedmoor(another tc encore and MGM barrel) is the ticket.
right now i have to shoot some 280gr gc wfn with around 12-13gr of unique.
you would probably be better off with a 250gr keith boolit for plinking. its one that i want to try. the 275gr ranch dog or the 280gr gc wfn(both about 12-13bhn) will take a deer or black bear down.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 22:18:45 GMT -7
I've a pile of 250 gr Keith SWC's that figure to dip into for some plinking loads. They mostly see use in Colt SAA's in .44 Spcl. and S&W Mountain Gun in .44 mangle-um.
Contemplating 1600-1800 fps range with 265-280 gr bullets. Those with familiarization of a heavy bullet and medium velocity will know at the 1600-1800 fps range, they're gonna go through most things that might get in their way in the hunting field! Since the 1960's have liked/preferred a heavy bullet for caliber at a medium+ velocity - the old British theory some refer to it as.
Speaking of 6.5mm, for years have used the Model 1903 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine, with 160 gr bullets. Took my first caribou in Alaska with it, years ago. Did work up some 140 gr Nosler partition loads, from a late 1990's article by Ross Seyfried.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 30, 2015 22:55:47 GMT -7
I don't know why but 1300 fps is magic. Think about how many senior cartridges that have sterling reputations as dependable game getters have a standard velocity of 1300 fps give or take. Even the 22 long rifle with its scant 40gn bullet is in the same category. Most every original black powder cartridge including those that made the transition to smokeless powder are in this group. There are just too many to mention that for nearly 150 years have served dependably in the game fields.
There is even some belief that increasing velocity over this magic number has the effect of cauterizing blood vessels resulting in decreased bleeding over impact velocities of the magic number.
Not only either that it works like magic on game the same magic also shows itself in accuracy. This velocity and its resultant low pressure is very easy even on the softest of lead alloy bullets. Again look to history and the level of accuracy achieved even before 1900. Look at the cartridges and the velocities they worked at. Look at the longest standing world record accuracy that was fired with a cast lead alloy bullet propelled by black powder and aimed through iron sights that contained 20 shots at 40 rods in an area not larger than 3/4". I am quite sure that the 38/55 that fired this group was operating at somewhere very near the magic number 1300 fps.
My point is that even with tiny bullets like the 22 rf shoots it does not take impressive velocity numbers to be an accurate dependable small game load . Then when you start slinging bullets in the 200gn weight range you move well up in scale for the size of game it will be dependable fore. Cartridges like the 32/20, 32/40, 38/40, and 44/40 come to mind that earned the distinction of dependability for such use.
OK so when you get to really messing with your 444 remember the magic number 1300 fps. It is all of the three things we look for in or shooting accurate, dependable, and fun.
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Post by todddoyka on Dec 31, 2015 0:20:27 GMT -7
  i have heard that!!! i tried my 444 with trail boss and 200gr xtps. at 50 yards i shot a 1/2" for 12 shots. i was getting rid of them anyway, but a half inch!!! it really blew my mind. 1300-1400fps is really good in my 45-70 handi and 405gr boolits. but i'll stay with my 444, even tho i am disabled(stroke got my right arm/leg when i was 39 y.o.) i can still take the 444 up to 2300-2400fps. but now i use it at 2000fps with 275gr ranch dog and rel7. i may drop it to around 1800-1900fps. the 30-40 krag using a 165gr ranch dog and h4198 is going about 1800fps and at 100 yards it goes 1 1/2-1 3/4" with 5 shots. there is an occasional 2 - 2 1/2" , but theres sun in my eyes, the bird sang at the wrong time and mars wasn't in alignment with the north star and pluto.  i wish i had a few of them guns like the 44-40 and the 38-55. those two would be all i need for hunting deer!!!
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 31, 2015 8:42:57 GMT -7
Never ever utter these words anywhere near the women folk --- "those two would be all i need for hunting deer!!!"""
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Post by missionary on Dec 31, 2015 10:34:37 GMT -7
Greetings
When you think about the hunter 150 years ago and earlier velocity was a very restricted matter in a rifle. BP was not going to get you much over 1400 fps unless your shooting the "express" types. The solution was to get a fatter bore with the heavier cast bullet.
Well today that is still a viable solution. Granted it is easy to get to 2200 fps in most any caliber but there still is a lot to be said about a fat heavy bullet chugging along at the speed of sound.
My simple thinking is that at the slower speeds big heavy and soft cast is going to be the longer timer inside churning and disrupting and letting the critter know he just got "thwapped". Once it pops out the far side after all the ripping and snorting that just happened massive leakage begins the draining process so when my getting slower body arrives on the scene I am less likely to have to go crawling about on my hands and knees looking for those near invisible wisps of red.
Now if I was to be hunting at some of the cross section ranges many of you are doing I will have to rethink my process. But at my river bottom ranges of less than 35 yards a cartridge caliber 41 mag and larger handgun or the 60 smoothie flinter is all our east ILLinois corn crunchers can handle.
Mike in Peru
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 31, 2015 13:01:29 GMT -7
I have a 12 bore smooth bore single barrel fouler that has been fitted with sights. In this I shoot a big honking patched ball. I have used this same patched 12 gauge ball to take a few deer and can say without doubt it is very effective for that job. Can also say that when you hit there is no doubt that you hit because you can hear a loud SMAK! It only requires about 70gn FG to make a big hole through and through.
Its kinda like putting a connecting rod through the side of your engine block. It drops oil pressure real fast.
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Post by goodsteel on Jan 15, 2016 21:49:39 GMT -7
The 1-38 twist in 44CF is one of the most epic industry wide blunders of all time. Consider this: the classic twist rate for the 35remington is 1-16. 45-70 is 1-20. Here's the 44 at 1-18? 1-18.5? 1-19? 1-20?
NO!!!!
1-38 twist on all 44 RIFLES across the board, even though it seems painfully obvious that they would be shooting LONGER bullets that required FASTER twist rates.
Every now and then, some gun manufacturer gets wise and fixes the problem and their rifles are good for shooting 200 yard. One example of this is Ruger Deerfield carbine in which they almost got it right by putting a 1-20 twist in there. The rifle was accurate out past 100 yards with normal pistol bullets well stabilized even at extended ranges. Another example was the Winchester classic 94 in 44 magnum, where they too fixed the barrel to a 1-20 twist and like the ruger, these rifles shot better than their predecessors (depending on barrel quality of course).
I'm actually rebarreling a Marlin 1894 with a Shilen 1-20 twist matchgrade barrel for a fellow who would really like to be competitive on 200 yard silhouettes, but can't with the stock rifle on account of the janky twist rate.
The 444 Marlin is 1-38 twist as well, (both old and new. It's the Winchester that had two different twist rates) and it shoots accurately a little further than the 44 magnum due simply to the higher speed, but it too is hamstrung for longer range shots that should be well within it's grasp.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 16, 2016 8:27:56 GMT -7
goodsteel
First I want to welcome you here and say that I am truly pleased to see your post. Second thanks for the good post. I had no real solid information from personal experience about what twist Marlin is currently using in the 444. What I was going on is input from a customer that wanted 400gn bullets for his new 444 Marlin and he assured me the twist was adequate because he had been reading about it on the internet.
I am amused by the industry blunder you described with the 444 Marlin. It is kind of one of those head scratching mysteries considering the success of much earlier 44 caliber chamberings as the 44-77 Sharps and its milsurp version the 43 Spanish. The Mauser brothers had the twist figured out at about the same time period in 1871 with their 11mm Mauser. Why the gap in understanding one can only speculate but somewhere in the interference the 44-40 with its 200gn bullets must have had some influence.
Another industry blunder or blessing in the opposite direction is with the 375 Winchester chambering. Apparently the Win techies just looked at what other 375s were using for twist and just went with that. So they go with a 1/12" twist that will stabilize bullets in the 350gn area for a cartridge that is offered with 220gn bullets. Since the Win 375 is much the same as its earlier incarnation in the 38-55 and both were offered in basically the same bullet weights why did they not go with the slower twist of the 38 cal version? That question has often put me to head scratching bewonderment.
Not complaining mind you because I take full advantage of the potential of that quick twist of the 375 Win. My two favorite bullets for the cartridge are a 350gn LFN from LBT that gets used for hunting and a 320gn RN that gets used for long range target shooting. That 320gn RN has shown good enough stability to ding the 800 yard buffalo gong with regularity.
It is interesting to ponder the reasons that the big companies paying their techs good wages sometimes cant seem to see the forest for the trees. I suppose the underlying reason is that they are not shooters but only college graduates whose education comes from books and not from burning powder.
Anyway welcome! This will be a better and more interesting place with your input.
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Jan 16, 2016 10:26:22 GMT -7
Another great example of the importance of the"right " twist...The Original 40-65 Win. as produced as rifles and factory ammo. could never have been competive at 400 Yds.,much less over the course at Quigley..Ron Long (perhaps with help from others) changed all that.. Now the long chambered 40/65 W.with 350-400 gr bullets competes effectively at the longest range used in that match..I,too,with Dan Sr. prefer much heavier than "standard"bullets in the 375 Win...They were especially remarkable in the Model 99 Sav.375..before some gent bought it away from me,at a value price ++++.!! 1oldgentagain
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Post by missionary on Jan 16, 2016 11:51:06 GMT -7
Greetings
If any one is interested JES Rebornig has another 336A rerifled and chambered to 444 Marlin with a 1-15 twist. It is on gunbroker and is $575 delivered . I have the same twist on his 405 JES and it shoots 345 grainers just fine out to 50 yards at 900 fps. Ran out of time and never got to 100 and beyond. I did get it to 1850 fps with no real trouble. Figured that would take care of any big nasty bity critter I will ever see.
Mike in Peru
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Post by 1oldgentagain on Jan 16, 2016 12:23:19 GMT -7
Not to start wrong on this board,but that Marlin that Jesse has listed is not a Marlin 336-A (Unless you count the Glenfield label) and the twist rate shown in his text is 1:25..(Certain better than 1:38,though.) Ifx you are seriously thinking about going that way into a 444, I have some shooter grade 336-A's from the 1950s still left, 24" barrel, and by the time you pay me and Jesse,you won't have a lot more on the table,than you would for that beater..Disclaimer,I have bought 3-4 of his rebores off GunBroker,mostly back in the day before he became world renowned.. Still a good guy,of course, and have his gunbroker Listings covered always.. Unless Dan says o'wise,I will assume Jesse O. is still the best source for a 375/06.(Next bucket list # here).. 1xxxxxxxxx.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 16, 2016 14:11:48 GMT -7
Jesse is still the best and cheapest way I know of to get a 375/06 or a new bore on any rifle in any caliber. He is or at least was limited to larger calibers last time I checked. I had a shot out 6mm/06 I wanted to step up to 6.5/06 but he declined the job.
Bill I still have two of the 375/06 rifles. One is an 03-A3 carbine Jesse did with the 3 groove rifling. It is set up with a Lyman receiver sight and is one handy fast handling brush gun that chops kindling when it passes through brush loaded with our custom 375/375 LFN. The other is on a pre war Husky with long barrel but not a re bore. I would be interested in using one as partial trade on your Zipper so you might just fill that bucket list.
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Post by goodsteel on Jan 19, 2016 21:12:29 GMT -7
JES is good. At $225 for a rebore, it still makes sense to use his service. I've had very little complaints with his rifling, although I have had to lap the barrels, and once I got a 35 that had an undersize bore diameter (actually, this is a good thing, except I had to fabricate a custom pilot for my 35XCB reamer. No big deal)
All things considered, I'd take a JES rebore over any factory barrel on the market, and the accuracy I have obtained with several of his barrels could hardly be improved upon my even Krieger. Big thumbs up for JES.
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Post by goodsteel on Jan 20, 2016 9:36:51 GMT -7
I want to post a retraction. The 444 Marlin being sold now is advertised as 1-20 twist on their website. I apologize for the error.
Also, I was looking at the advertised twist rates for the 1894 lineup, and it appears the 1:38 twist worked so badly for the 44 Magnum, they decided to throw 45 Colt under the buss as well, and it is being produced with the 1-38 twist as well. I would just love to talk to one of Marlin's engineers and find out what they are thinking. I just don't get it.
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Post by Junior on Jan 20, 2016 17:38:58 GMT -7
That must have been after Remington took over?
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Post by goodsteel on Jan 20, 2016 18:28:37 GMT -7
I assume so.
I heard about Remington's needing to rework the entire 1894 line from scratch because the equipment was so old and badly maintained when it got to NY. However, they made like total deadbeats and kept the original 1-38 twist, and changed the 45 Colt from 1-20 to 1-38 also. I wonder sometimes if they have a single competent gunsmith who understands ballistic theory on even a cursory basis?
The reason I'm so sick about this all the time is that one of my "can't ever sell" rifles is a Rossi 92 in 44 magnum given to me by Felix's family after he passed, and I would live to compete with it in silhouette matches, but it's at a pretty bad disadvantage at the 100 yard line, unless I run light bullets fast. I would like to just rebarrel it to 1-20. I have the skills, and I have a darn good reason to do it, but here's the rub: NRA rules state that the rifle must wear the original unmodified barrel.
However, they do allow the barrel to be lined. I keep thinking about relining the 92 to 1-20 twist. I'd have to look into it and see if they allow the liner to protrude from the end of the original barrel at all. I could get my 24" that way and blue it perfectly so you'd really have to know what you were looking for in order find it. If I was slick, I would make the liner such a diameter that it popped out of the original barrel right under the band, so the transition would be hidden. That would be a pretty neat trick!
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Post by Junior on Jan 20, 2016 18:50:25 GMT -7
You would have to change the tube as well. Interesting that the barrel can not be modified but can be lined.
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Post by goodsteel on Jan 27, 2016 20:00:51 GMT -7
No magazine tube modification necessary. Lining the barrel to the same caliber is what I meant.
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lmg
Bullet Head
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Post by lmg on Jan 30, 2016 9:59:29 GMT -7
The problem with the .44 caliber barrels with 38" twists is one of bullet stability. I've shot numerous 44 magnum and 444 Marlin rifles in the past with the 38" twist and found accuracy was not good with a Lyman 429421 and only marginally better with the 429244 GC bullet in every 38" twist 44 magnum I shot over the years. If I pushed the 429244s up to 1900 2000 fps they did fine in the 444 Marlin. However, the 429215 always gave excellent accuracy regardless of the velocity or cartridge.
I was sure back then that stability was the issue. Using the Miller formula to compute the Sg (stability factor) a 1.4 Sg is needed for full stability of a bullet. The velocity for the following bullets to have an Sg of 1.4 are;
429360; 1100 fps
429640; 2000 fps
429215; 800 fps
44-250-KT; 1700 fps
430-240-SWD; 1600 fps
429-200-RF; 350 fps
Thus we see the length of the bullet plays a critical part with the 44 caliber 38" twist barrels. Obviously the factories mistakenly just went with what was done with the 44-40 cartridge in rifles. The slow 38" twist kept the BP fouling down and was quite sufficient to stabilize the short 200 - 205 gr bullets used. The longer and heavier 44 Magnum bullets are only marginally stabilized in the 38" twist at full magnum level velocities. With the heavier 250 - 270 gr bullets even the 444 Marlin cartridge with a 38" twist must push them to top end to fully stabilize those bullets.
A good thing that the factories recognized the problem and most are putting faster twist barrels on their 44 Magnum rifles now. However, those with older 44 Magnums and 444 Marlins must consider the stability issue for best accuracy. For "plinking" loads of 800 - 1200 fps the Lee 429-200-RF or similar bullet from other mould makers is probably the best choice.
In the 44 Magnum caliber with a 38" twist it takes a bullet not more than .725" long to be stable at a minimum of 1400 fps. That rules out the Lyman 429421, the RCBS 44-250-KT, the 429244, the 429640 and the 430-240-SWC. Other similar moulds giving bullet lengths over .725" would also be ruled out. Several of those may give reasonable accuracy at 50 yards, especially if pushed to 1500 - 1600 fps but their accuracy invariably falls apart at 100 yards.
You may get a bit better out of the 444 Marlin if the bullet is GC'd. If one is really wanting the best in accuracy from the 444 Marlin with a 38" twist then a GC'd 240 gr bullet is the best choice.
Still, with either cartridge in 38" twist barrels best accuracy will come with cast bullets shorter than .725".
Larry Gibson
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 30, 2016 10:49:52 GMT -7
Wow! Thanks Larry! That pretty much clears up that issue. That explains why the 429215 always shot so good for me. I have that design in solid and hollow point and the HP always shot so good.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 22:34:38 GMT -7
Thank you Larry, for the insightful information 'bout the bullet length and 1-38" twist in the older .44 mag n' .444 Marlins.
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), and the Ruger No. 3 shape I've been using since the 1970's. That this No. 3 I was being offered had the chamber opened up to .444 Marlin didn't slow me down at all! It'll be when the snow's gone before I get a real chance to get out n' do some shooting with it, but would like to load some rounds up ahead of time this winter.
i have heard that!!!
