mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 5, 2016 19:06:01 GMT -7
Hey Tom, Yes, I'm familiar with the .450 Alaskan. I'm an old .348 user too. The .50 Alaskan had me puzzled until I looked up the brass for it. At least we don't need to be ruining anymore good .348 cases... Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by missionary on Mar 6, 2016 17:12:05 GMT -7
I have never owned a 348 Winchester. Have a 33 Winchester and never took the step up. I have wanted a caliber 50 lever rifle ever since the first Springfield 1866 came my way. An original 1886 in caliber 50 just never was in the budget. Then when JES Reboring got going and expanded into caliber 50 I started getting serious. Already had the two rifles he can convert. So started looking into caliber 50 brass. Starline sells it in 50 Alaskan much more reasonable than 50-110. So economics moved my choice to that caliber 50. Have the 250 count Starline 50 Alaskan sitting in storage. Dies are purchased. All I need to do as soon as I get north is send whichever rifle to JES. The 50 Alaskan has the same case rim diameter as 45-70 so no bolt issues. Maybe some work on the rails, loading and better attach the mag tube if loads over 1700 fps are going to be fired. Mike in Peru
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2016 18:56:39 GMT -7
Mike, You just want to make my .50/70 seem like a slow poke. Easy to do, actually. That's okay. I also have a .33 W.C.F., a take-down from 1918. Not a bad rifle, in fact I should give it more attention. But the Sharps rifles beg to me too much. That .50 Alaskan does sound very interesting. Right now the only '86 I have that could be considered for conversion is my Browning SR carbine in .45/70 and no way! In fact, that carbine kicks hard enough as it is! Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2016 21:28:41 GMT -7
This is probably a bit off track, but if one is going to go to a .50 lever action, one to give consideration to is from B&M Rifles. Now not sayhing there's anything wrong with a .50-110, k', it's just what the B&M Rifles .50 Alaskan offers is another approach to a .50 caliber. www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/50-B-M-Alaskan.html A .50-110 uses .512 bullets, whereas the .50 Alaskan from B&M uses .500 diameter bullets, the same as for the . 500 S&W. More of a variety of jacketed and cast bullet availability to choose from. What is a .50 Alaskan? It's a .50-110 necked down for .500 bullet use. Anyway...
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2016 21:39:54 GMT -7
Bear, It's good you weren't "outside" when he came by. Good doin's! And I've got good molds for that gun. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by missionary on Mar 7, 2016 18:52:37 GMT -7
Howdy Bear That B&M article was an interesting read. Just seems to be an endless array of options. But JES Reboring will be the deciding factor. He lists 50 Alaskan with a .512 groove. Plenty of cast molds are available and I do not shoot jackets. I can make 20 for what one factory item would cost me. Then when I am done I can always sell the mold. UGH.. what an awful thought. Mike in Peru
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 9:17:30 GMT -7
Mike in Peru: have heard many good words about JES's quality work, and have him ear marked for future re-bore work.
Some folks tend to shy away from a re-bore, mostly until they experience a quality re-bore. In 1982 I had 2 Ruger No. 3 carbines sent down to Salt Lake City for re-bore work in P. O. Ackley's shop. Had the 2 .223 chambered No. 3's re-bored to .25 caliber and chambered to .257 Roberts. I gifted one to friend in Wyoming, who has used his to harvest antelope, deer, elk and other game ever since 1983 - his only other rifle is a Marlin 39 .22 LR. I took my re-bored No. 3 back to Alaska and use it for caribou (yes, my 6.5x54 was a bit jealous) for many years up north. Accuracy with the re-bored No. 3 in .257 Roberts was less than 1", if I did my part. Having bought 26 boxes of Winchester .257 +P Roberts ammunition at a Native store in Bethel, Alaska in 1994, have used that 100 gr Silvertip for jacketed use ever since.
In 2005 dropped off another Ruger No. 3 with Dan Pederson at Cut Rifle (www.cutrfile.com) in Perscott, Ariona for a re-bore. That No. 3 had left the factory as a .22 Hornet, but someone had applied a .284 chamber reamer and turned it into a .22-284. Talk about what a blue tip welding cutting torch looks like, when that round was touched off - WOW I had a No. 3 take-off barrel in .223, and had Cut Rifle re-bore to .30 caliber and chamber to .308 WCF with an 1-in-11" twist, primarily for 165 gr jacketed bullet use. After a 20 round session of firing and cleaning between rounds fired, using an older steel tube Weaver 2.5x scope, with post reticle, and firing from an old card table set up in a gravel pit, 3 shots fired at 25 yards (yes not 100 yards) gave a group that had to be looked at very closely to tell it was not one hole - rather a slightly out of round hole. That No. 3 has sat idle since then! Too many other irons (yes, that is an oxymoron statement) having been attended to since then. A proper/quality re-bore provides splendid performance, as many who have had a re-bore can attest to.
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Post by missionary on Mar 8, 2016 11:11:23 GMT -7
Howdy Mike Have no intention making the 50-70 look like anything than what it is... One absolutely fine cartridge. My main plan for the 50 Alaskan is 3F with some heavier bullets than the 50-95 can handle. The cartridge limitations of the 50-95 make it a max 400 grain bullet shooter in my mind. Once you get to 400 grains even 3F is running on the low side of powder space. Plus even a modern steel repro 1876 still has toggle links which are the weak link in lockup. My thoughts with the 50 Alaskan is throat it sufficiently that it can handle a 500 grainer with at least 70 grains of 3F... 80 grains would be a nice bonus. But on the other side if ever a 1500 pound bison came stomping about my garden that 50 Alaskan will be the lever gun that gets the first bite into that ol shaggy hide. A 500 grainer at 1650-1750 fps should be a fare equalizer out to 100 yards on most any creature of unhappy desires. From what I read 1900 fps is not unreachable safely. That probably is more fun than my 150 pounds needs to enjoy. Mike in Peru
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2016 12:56:29 GMT -7
Mike, It's sound more like what you want is the old .50/100/450 Winchester. That used the same case as the .50/110 but had a different loading, mainly a heavier bullet weight than the 110's 300 grain pill. It would use .50/110 brass. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 8, 2016 14:12:21 GMT -7
If any of you folks are considering a re bore by Jes Ocumpaugh to 50 AK I can offer my experience in that the one he did for me turned out great. This particular project was a re bore from 45-70 to 50 AK on a Siamese Mauser. I had him do the three groove rifling and it shot cast extremely well. At the time he did not have a 50 AK reamer available so I sent mine along with the rifle. Mine is from Pacific Tool and was made with a 1* lead angle especially for use with cast bullets. I turned that rifle over to a friend in the timber camps to be used for self defense in our strips. We were encouraged to pack rifles in areas that were giving problems with bears. I still have one 50 AK that both Ken and Mike will remember. It is a re barrel on an original 1886 Win. I have used it to take a couple moose and can say that it puts them down decisively. I designed a bullet for it using the custom design feature from Dan Lynches site at Mountain Molds. It is a 510gn WFN-GC design and works extremely well in my rifle. For you fellas considering a conversion here is some advice I learned from experience. I use both reformed 348 brass and Starline brass. The Starline brass is thicker at the mouth so can cause problems with chambering cast bullets that are sized larger than .510" if your chamber is on the minimum side as is mine. Since I size my bullets at .512" the Starline brass may at times cause issue with free chambering. On the other hand if shooting jacketed bullet at .510" diameter the Starline brass has a much more firm grip on the smaller diameter bullets that will the thinner brass reformed from Win 348 brass. Not the type of thing we usually think about when getting into a rifle project but is the type of thing that comes up after the fact. Now you know the rest of the story. OH yes and another thing I might mention is in regards to the magazine tube. If your building on an 1886 as I did you will have to do quite a bit of crafty work in keeping the mag tube from shooting off. The 1886 mag tube is not threaded to the receiver as is the model 71. With the model 71 conversion since it already uses a non seemed threaded tub you will experience less grief in this area.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 22:18:37 GMT -7
Indeed Bullshop, I remember a cow moose your 1886 .50 cal harvested in 2006. If memory serves me well, you placed 2 shots, 2" apart through the left shoulder blade, around 80 yards. My having driven by your home in Alaska a couple of days afterwards, in time to help cut-n-wrap meat and enjoy a fine moose rib barbecue afternoon meal with your family. Nice memories...
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 19, 2016 19:07:43 GMT -7
Not to let this thread die out, I've got more to say about .50/70 bullets. Let me do more shooting to make sure of tings. It does seem like the Lee .50/70 bullet, with the newer molds that use pins far alignment, are the ones to make bullets with. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by missionary on Mar 21, 2016 15:01:28 GMT -7
Greetings Yes let this thread stay alive. Thank you Dan for your input on the 1886 rebore. I am leaning to sending in the jap 86 as that 26 inch octagon will do well with a caliber 50 off cross sticks. If I have to attach the mag tube then so be it. Not like I will be pulling it a lot. Plus that info on the Starline brass. Have to see what the chamber ends up. Just maybe the reamer Jes has is a bit more in diameter.
I do like the news Lee has gone to "pin alignment". Sure will not hurt the dropped bullet. Mike in Peru
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2016 16:01:14 GMT -7
Mike I don't know anything about the reamer that Jes is using now. When he did the re bore to 50 AK for me he didn't have a reamer so I sent mine along with the gun. Apparently the conversion is popular enough that he got a reamer. On my 1886 conversion from 45-90 it was an original that had a seemed mag tube. The tube exploded when we tried to thread it so we had to get a solid tube that could then be threaded. The smith that did this work machined a solid part that fit the mag well in the receiver then he inside threaded that and outside threaded the tube to fit the machined part. He also added an anchor point at the forend dovetail as well as beefing up the one at the mag tube cap. Since this work has been done the mag tube has not moved. Your modern 1886 may already have a solid mag tube that can be threaded. If not you will likely have to get one. The tube off of a 71 might work if t has enough inside diameter because it is already threaded. It would only make a half length mag though. Mine is full length and holds a lot of ammo.
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Post by missionary on Mar 21, 2016 17:15:03 GMT -7
Thank you again Dan ! When I get back north in June that is my first project to get at. Will check out the mag tube and see what I have. The 3 point attachment sounds like a very secure way to go. I have little plan of passing 1750 fps with this rifle so just maybe the attachment method that now exists will hold together... but maybe not. My first shooting will go with 3F though. Have thought about even trying a couple cases full of 4F to record the velocity differences in a large bore like the caliber 50. Then start out with some smokeless loads plodding along enjoying a caliber 50 lever rifle finally. Seeing ILLinois is not highly blessed with an abundance of "ol shaggies" running about I may have to advertise to "humanely dispatch" old cows and horses to get the experience plugging larger critters. Feller that helped me get started shooting BPCR got to drop a horse that was forever running through the fence. He used an original 74 Sharps loaded with a 500 some grain 30-1 out of a caliber 45 with about 105 grains of 2F.
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 21, 2016 19:53:09 GMT -7
I have not personally checked the new repro 1886 win/Browning rifles to see how the mag tube is attached. On original rifles all you have is the two anchor points one at the mag cap and one at the forend hanger dovetail. Since Win/Browning first replicated the model 71 which has the mag tube threaded to the receiver then secondly they came out with the 1886 they may well have stayed with the threaded tube for both models. Without the threaded tube my rifle was shooting the entire tube assembly off even with moderate loads. Checking the Win. archives we found they had the same problem with original 50 cal 1886 models. We found that all the 1886 50 cal rifles were hand fit by one man to solve the same problem. With mine pre threaded after a couple shots the mag tube, spring, and follower would be one the ground about 10 feet in front of the shooting bench. The rifle I have now is the only one I kept of several I had built. All the others were on the model 71 action and I never had any trouble with those even though I fired much heavier loads in the modern receiver rifles. In the rifle I still have on the vintage 1886 action my working load is with a custom design 510gn WFN-GC bullet at 1750 fps. About a year ago I lent it out for use in dispatching a rouge bull bison that was a rather belligerent fellow with little regard for fences and a eye for the young ladies too young for breeding. This bull went about 2200 pounds live weight. The butcher recovered the bullet and gave it to me. It is a classic mushroom. I used the rifle to take one smallish 35" bull moose and it is the only time I have ever seen a moose flattened with a non spine or brain hit. The shot was a high shoulder hit that poleaxed the bull. He re gained his feet and a second shot within an inch of the first had exactly the same effect. I have never shot a bison other than finishing off two bulls that had been hit by cars on the AK hiway and had to be finished off and for that I used ol B00 my 45-70 loaded with a 500gn PP smoothie.
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Post by missionary on Mar 22, 2016 17:35:28 GMT -7
That all sounds like a hat full of good time with a caliber 50. However the mag tube is thank you for the remedies if it comes loose. I was thinking about one of the flanged nose cap types Winchester used on the Model 76's. Last time north I had hoped to lure a yote within 50-95 range but it was not to be. Would have been interesting though wacking one with that 40-1 350 grainer. That is about all we have in ILLinois as center fire rifle targets. Racoons, ground hogs unless someone ever will be able to pop one of the cougars that ILLinois claims does not exist.
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Post by missionary on Mar 31, 2019 8:26:19 GMT -7
Good morning Was just looking through old threads and saw this one. I never updated anything after shooting our 50 Alaskan two different summers (2016 and 2018) when we were north. First I do want to thank everyone who added to the great time I had with the 86 conversion and shooting it. All information adds to the total result. JES did his usual great job. Groove is .512. The reamer JES used was right for Starline Brass so it worked with no issuses even using cast sized to .5135.
Started with the same 350 grainer I shoot in the 50-95 just to get things working and shooting. Those make a great plinker out to 200 yards running from 1700-1950 fps. That 26 inch octagon barrel on cross sticks is fun. 4195 was the best powder getting above 1800 fps. 5744 worked nicely at slower velocities. 2-3" 100 groups was easy to do. Moved up to a 525 grain GC round flat nosed next. Those got my attention real fast once they crossed 1600 fps. Removed the steel shoulder crusher and added a padded leather butt cover. That saved my little bony self a lot of grief. Highest load I tried was with 4198 at 1865 fps. That was all the fun I needed. It was still producing the same 1.5" groups at 50 yards but I decided 2 grains less was far more tolerable off cross sticks and far less stressful on brass. That runs at 1825 fps. That was 53 grains 4198. Probably will use the 500 grain GCFN (NOE) for serious hunting and the 425 grain GCFN for whatever else. Can easily get 2000 fps with that 425 gr and a lot less stress. Why even at 1600 fps it thwaps the 200 yard 8 inch gong with authority.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 2, 2019 10:35:15 GMT -7
If I may I would like to jump in here and offer my fairly extensive experience shooting cast bullets in the 348 Win, 450 and 50 Alaskan cartridges. I am including the 348 Win because it is a part of the development of the 450 and 50 Alaskan cartridges. To fully appreciate the cartridge development we really need to go back even further that the history all the way to the 50-110 cartridge and the model 1886 Winchester rifle. After WW-1 when the dough boys were coming home with first hand experience of the prowess of the 30-06 Springfield they would not again be satisfied with the performance of the myriad of lesser cartridges in use in sporting arms at the time. They got used to the ought 6 and trusted it literally with their lives. The Winchester company realizing that other than the model 1895 in a few military chamberings lever guns just couldn't compete with bolt guns in performance. When the decided to modernize the conventional lever gun which the model 95 was not they decided to re-vamp not only the model 1886 platform but also the 50-110 cartridge. They re-shaped the receiver some on the 1886 and came up with the model 71. There were a few other necessary changes like the solid mag tube threaded to the receiver rather than the seemed tube of the 86 anchored at a couple points with dove tail into the barrel. The introduction of the only cartridge ever offered in the model 71 the 348 Win was a then modern high velocity round matching the 30-06 in ballistic performance with both the 150gn bullet at 3000 fps and the 180gn bullet at 2700 fps. This was exactly the marketing idea Win folks were after to offer a conventional lever gun that could equal the performance of the rifle that saved their butts in Europe and this it did. As often happens in practice things often don't work as well as on paper and those first light bullet factory loads performed poorly compared to the cartridge they were trying to emulate. The latter loads for the 348 with the 250gn bullets became THE ALASKAN BEAR LOAD and still persist in carrying that reputation even though there are very few 348 rifles still in use for that purpose In developing the 348 cartridge Winchester stayed with the 50-110 case and necked it down to 348. This produced a volumous case of basically 35 caliber that could deliver the high velocities of the higher pressure 30-06 but do it at a pressure compatible with the large frame conventional lever action rifle. This is the reason that we can blow out 348 Win brass to the 450 or 50 AK because in the case of the 50 AK all that is being done is reverse engineering and taking the 348 back to its original 50-110. There are slight difference in case length the 50-110 being 2.4" and the 50 AK being 2.1" but chamber pressure favor the shorter case delivering much higher velocity. Now that Starline offers brass in both 450 and 50 AK there is less need to blow out 348 brass to form either. I said less need not no need because there still may be the need to re-form brass depending on weather your shooting cast bullets or jacketed bullets and weather you using custom loading dies or standard dies. The issue is one of bullet diameter and sizing die diameter. Standard dies size brass to jacketed bullet diameter which is almost always smaller than cast bullet diameter in any caliber. What I have discovered is that the Starline 50 AK brass is thicker in the neck than re-forms brass from 348. This can cause issues when loading larger diameter cast bullets especially in custom rifles with fairly tight chambers. Also in reverse loading .510" diameter jacketed bullets in brass re-formed from 348 using standard loading dies may result in bullets not being held tight enough in case necks to hold bullets in place under recoil in the mag tube. The situation is made simple by simply using the Starline brass for jacketed bullets and the re-formed brass for larger diameter cast bullets. Additionally if ordering custom loading dies the issue of case neck thickness and bullet diameter should be addressed. I have had the distinct pleasure of spending time with numerous model 71 Win and 1886 Win both replica and original as well as a few Siamese Mauser rifles chambered for these cartridges. In that process I have learned much about the 450 and 50 AK cartridges. Of all the rifles so chambered that it has been my great pleasure to spend time with I have still in my possession just one that of all had become my favorite. This is an original 1886 in original rifle configuration with long rifle length barrel and full length mag tube chambered in the 50 2.1" cartridge. It is not up to the chamber pressures of the more modern heat treated 71 nor of the superior metallurgy of the modern replica guns but it has proven in the Alaskan hunting fields not to be necessary. Its working load pushing a 510gn LBT WFN-GC bullet to 1750 fps a load that has proven performance on animals in the 2000 lb live weight range including large Alaskan moose and one belligerent bull bison that brought on his demise because of his interest in the young ladies and lack of respect for fences .
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Post by missionary on Apr 3, 2019 5:53:19 GMT -7
Howdy Dan Thank you for adding this good information. We have a 50-110 in a single shot which I do enjoy hauling about east ILLinois. Not that there is any critter that would need a 450 grainer at 1300 fps to stop it I am hopping one day to get to pop a cougar with it. But I would be happy to help a run away horse to slow down. A nearby lawyer was raising bison along the North Fork River off Shake Rag Road (my loafing area) but my hopes of being helpful stopping a fence breaker never happened. Our last time north last summer it was discovered he sold out his herd as they were then big enough to push over his 6 foot high heavy pole fence whenever they wanted.
Our jap 86 in 50 Alaskan so far has not flung the tube down range. But I do not ever carry it with more than 2 rounds inside. I do think next time up though it will get a #10 screw through the side of the receiver to lock it in. With me shooting mostly the 425 grainers at moderate speeds I trust that will be enough to hold it in place helping the front dovetail under stress. Nearing 70 next years summer I will may decide I really am more than happy with moderate light slugs in that rifle. It is a nice one to park on a high spot on cross sticks and call yotes.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 3, 2019 8:42:24 GMT -7
We have a vintage IDEAL mold that I believe was intended for the 50-95 express. The bullet it drops is very short with flat nose not much longer than a 50 cal ball. In very soft lead it drops at 300gn and in clip on WW about 280gn. Should be a good moderate range vermin plinker for your 86- 50 AK. Re-visiting this thread has caused me to reminisce on some of the rifles I have had the use of that were chambered in 45 and 50 AK. The very first was quite an historical rifle. This one was purchased new as a model 71 in 348 win by a gun writher most of us older folk will remember, Colonel Charles Askins. An elderly man Roy Wike I became good friends with when we first moved to Delta Junction Alaska had been stationed at Fort Greely with Charly Askins and they became shooting buddies. Charly had bought the model 71 and had it delivered to Harold Johnson in Kenai Alaska to be re-barreled to 45 AK. Harold Johnson was the gunsmith that originally developed the 450 and 50 AK cartridges. Mr Askins did this in preparation for an African hunting trip of which he wrote about in the American Rifleman magazine sometime in about the 60's Roy had a shotgun Charley wanted real bad so Roy agreed to trade if he could have his pick of anything in Charlies gun rack. To this they agreed and after a fine dinner prepared by Roys wife Cattie Roy chose from Charlies gun rack the model 71 in 450 Alaskan. Roy used the gun for one brown bear hunt that became awfully exciting to hear Roy tell of it because of the use of thin jacketed light weight 45-70 bullets that failed to penetrate adequately for a quick kill. It was touch and go for a bit but Roy got the job done and when I knew him he had the shoulder mount at his home. Roy never used the gun again and when he learned of my interest in such things he offered it on loan for as long as I wanted. After about a year in my possession I began to feel some guilt about wanting to keep the rifle and each time questioning Roy would only bring the repeated phrase " for as long as you want" I was trying to work a trade with Roy and very nearly did when Cattie Roys wife realized what we were up to and she commented "" after all you went through to get that "". Then Roy backed out and we never discussed it again and I returned the rifle to him telling him that if I didn't do it now I likely never would as I was becoming quite attached to it. That was my first experience with the 450 AK and in the years time I had it only just wet my appetite to learn more about the 450 and 50 Ak cartridges and the rifles chambered for them. That has been a fun and rewarding ride!
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Post by missionary on Apr 3, 2019 11:16:40 GMT -7
That was a fine story to read. To think you had in your cabinet One of Charles Askin's rifles and could walk out and shoot it. God does do wonderful things. The hunting part of doing battle with a brown bear and thin skinned jackets would give me the tremors. I think what really got my interest in the 50 Alaskan finalized is when JES Reboring (can never remember how to spell his last name) showed on his page the caliber 50 (.512) was added. I called him fast when we got north and he had the 50 Alaskan reamer sitting there. Off went the 86 and just over two weeks back in my hands. Loading info and a set of dies in the box with a note to be prepared to do some interior modifications to be able to cycle the 50 AK brass and any large cast. How right he was. But it all was well worth it. Hard to beat a caliber 50 FN slug on impact. Did you ever shoot any of the "cut in half and loaded backwards" caliber 50 BMG projectiles ? That would be a good heavy jacket to slam into a gong or some nasty bitty type critter. I doubt I will ever as a simple 525 cast is all the fun I need. Neither of my 50 lever rifles have launched a jacket and I plan on keeping it that way. $1 a slug is silly ! We have the Lyman designed for the 50 Express. I was not impressed at all with it. It looses velocity so fast that after 100 yards it hardly dings a gong. Tried our 350 slug (Lyman) and what a difference at 100 and out to 200. Had to shorten the brass to use the crimp groove with 5744 (near equals 3F accuracy). That was as heavy as I desired for the 76 action even in a modern steel replica (high # Chaparral). Another fun rifle to sit on a high spot and call yotes.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 3, 2019 11:53:53 GMT -7
The first 50 AK Jess and Wyatt Ocumpaugh ever turned out was for me. I had them re-bore a 45-70 built on a Siamese Mauser action to 50 Ak. At the time they didn't have a reamer for 50 AK so I sent my reamer along with the rifle. It was a great and simple conversion. After that Jess thought it a good idea so he acquired a 50 Ak reamer for their shop and the rest as they say is history. All the 45-70 Siamese Mausers and Lee Enfields put out by Navy Arms and Gibbs are likely candidates for a re-bore to 50 AK since they used such heavy barrels for the original conversions. BTW I still have the 50 AK reamer just in case a suitable specimen turns up!
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