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Post by missionary on Jan 24, 2021 14:18:33 GMT -7
Good afternoon Our son in central Florida snagged a OK condition good bore 1870 50-70. Yahoo.... another jewel to shoot when we are down south. Have to figure out some BP, cases, slugs and primers now..... I have it all up in ILL-nois but that is a bit far from here to get it all moved.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 24, 2021 15:46:55 GMT -7
All trap doors in 50-70 have a fairly slow twist and will not shoot well with bullet much over 1" long. The Lyman 515141 shoots well but its BC is poor compared the the original 45-70-500 load. There was a lot of developmental work that went onto the 45-70 for that very reason to increase hit probability at longer ranges. Reading the Sandy Hook trials fascinates me with the extremes in testing. Even the rifle perfected for long range by 1884 I find fascinating in that it has compensation for spin drift built into the sight. The site staff is not vertical but is canted left to compensate for its entire adjustment range. The 50-70 is one heck of a good hunting round for normal woods ranges say to about 200 yards. Farther than that and that rain bow ark of the bullet becomes a little iffy for precise shot placement. There is no shortage of good bullet designs although right now with all the panic buying mold prices too have been driven up. If I were to pick a favorite I will go with the RCBS 550gn flat nose. Reasons being that I prefer a flat nose for hunting and the 550gn weight makes it about the longest bullet that will stabilize from a 50-70 mil-surp barrel. You can get about 65gn weight of FFG under the RCBS bullet for maybe 1200 to 1250 fps and that is plenty of thumping for any deer in the Americas as long as its well placed. I have done quite a bit of shooting with the 50-70 and in my opinion its at its best with FFG black powder. I have shot plenty of smokeless loads too but the rifles tells me it likes BP best. When Jr. was just six months old I and his Mom took him on a camp out elk hunt in the Big Hole valley in Montana. We got our elk a nice young spike. My rifle was a 50-70 Sharps original conversion carbine. The load was 60gn weight GOEX FG powder with the Lyman # 515141 bullet at about 425gn, and I estimate the muzzle velocity at about 1000 fps. The shot at not more than 25 yards was a frontal chest shot dead center in the chest. When I gutted out the elk I followed the bullets path through the center of the heart, lungs, paunch, guts, and exited the rear vent. The bull never took another step. He just hunched up right where he stood for just a few seconds then tipped over sideways and rolled down the hill until he piled up on a blow down lodge pole and laid there stone dead. A 300 Wheatherby could not have killed any better and would have ruined a lot more meat at that close range. A heavy slug at over a half inch diameter does not need to go fast to have good killing effect.
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Post by missionary on Jan 24, 2021 16:16:09 GMT -7
Howdy Dan We have a couple 50-70 rifles and one roller carbine. I agree with your evaluation. At home we shoot mostly a 350 grain (range scrap) using 45-65 grains 2F with wads below to get about a 10% compression. We are happy with the loads and out to 100 yards it is accurate enough to pop yotes and groundhogs which seen to expire real fast all twisted about. I hope one day to fire on a corn cruncher but ILL-nois still does not trust us to do so. They allow any muzzle loader so there is little thought going on. But I can use a revolver so the 445 Dan Wesson takes the place of a 45-70 BP and our 475 Linebaugh easily duplicates the 50-70 load we use Maybe this year !
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 24, 2021 16:44:37 GMT -7
Our world abounds with self appointed experts who's only qualification for that which they rule is ignorance.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 25, 2021 0:15:50 GMT -7
On the subject of .45-70 & .50-70's, this year, I took both of mine deer hunting. The 1884 Trapdoor & the 1871 New York Militia Rolling Block. The .50-70 is lpoaded with 70 gr. 2F Goex, compressed, & the government bullets that Daniel cast for me a few years ago. The Trapdoor, with the 500 gr bullet with 29 gr. of IMR 4198. As it turned out, 7 days, didn't even see 1 deer. Tracks everywhere, & I was set up almost under a bow hunter's tree stand. Also went 3 days another location with my T/C .50 Hawken ML. Again, nothing, so I spent a good part of 2 days last week thoroughly cleaning rifles. I have joined a local conservation club, that has 2 indoor ranges, a 25 & a 50, for pistol & .22 rimfire rifles--no magnums--& an open outdoor 100 yd. range, so, when the weather warms up, I am going to start shooting the old rifles, just to see how well they will shoot. Hopefully, I'll be ordering bullets. I now have about 350 or more .45-70 brass, & 100 .50-70's. I set up my loading equipment on a portable stand that I made, on a drop cloth in the living room, & after Jeanne goes to bed, I can load ammo, not having to worry about her smoking around powder.
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Post by missionary on Jan 25, 2021 7:06:19 GMT -7
Those cartridges both will always be fine power house cartridges for any critter we will ever see this side of our world. Enjoy the fun ! Hunting will sure do that. 95% pure enjoying the day never knowing when that 5% will pop up and demand full attention.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 25, 2021 10:06:35 GMT -7
This story I will tell is not about 45 or 50 -70 but about the 50-90 and I think most will find it amusing. I was deer hunting in eastern Montana 's Missouri breaks area with one of the first 1874 Sharps rifles produced by C. Sharps of Big Timber Montana. For their first several years in business they only produced the 1875 model. When they anounced to their dealers that they would eventually produce the 1874 model I put in an order for a 50-90 sporting model. About a year and a half later I got it and it was a great rifle. I used it with success for moose in Alaska and then we went to Fairview MT. for 18 months. Fairview town is in two states MT. and N. Dakota. That hunting season I was deer hunting in some deep arroyos filled with Juniper trees. Up on top it looked like all flat lifeless land but in the breaks were there was water there was life. I headed over the edge of one of these breake and as I did I jumped several bedded mule deer. They jumped up and ran down hill away from me. Well its not that far to the bottom and at level only maybe a bit over 100 yards to the other side coming back up. I decided to wait right where I was for the deer to come into view on the other side so I hefted the big 50 Sharps and cocked the hammer. It didnt take long for them to come into view on the other side maybe 75 to 80 yards away. As they got about level with me they stopped for a look see at where I was. There was a nice 4x4 buck in the group and he seemed maybe used to this evasion tactic because where he stopped for a look his vitals from neck and shoulder were protected by juniper trees. I could see his antlers sticking out from behind a tree and his rump but that was it all the good stuff was covered. There he stood for what seemed like a long time and my hold on the Sharps was starting to wobble. I thought on it for a wee bit and considered that I was shooting a 600gn paper patch bullet with 90gn of Goex FFG powder a load thay you would think should have some penetrating power. When I just could not hold up the rifle any longer I decided to aim at the vitals and shoot through the juniper tree that was maybe 6" in diameter. Well at the shot I saw large shards of juniper wood go flying and the large buck drop in his tracks. I made my way to the other side of the ravine to inspect the situation and found that the big 600 lead chunk went not only through the tree and deer but dug a furrow on the far bank that I could have planted corn in for next years hunt. Its good to have confidence in your rifle and that experience sure gave me confidence in 50 caliber rifles slinging large chunks of lead launched with charcoal fuel!
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Post by missionary on Jan 25, 2021 11:07:40 GMT -7
Thank you Dan I always enjoy your writings of past hunts. Years back I remember reading some "After Action" notes about the effectiveness of engaging "hostiles" by firing through their mounts even at extended ranges. Having read numerous reports from the hunters who decimated the buff herds with the caliber 50 rifles I have never in any way figured the 50s still will not get the job done. Personally I would not hesitate to fire on any critter with a caliber 50 with a 500 + grain slug powered by a case full of Goex 2F. Even the 350 FNPB we use often really puts a healthy slam on a 50 pound steel plate (ram) at 100 yard..... Imagine what that 600 grain monster would do even getting punched through a juniper trunk.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 25, 2021 12:19:52 GMT -7
I think I may have mentioned a friend Leo Remiger that co-authored a couple books about the buffalo hunters. One was called Getting a Stand and is a great book I have read numerous times. The other is simple called The Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters. In this one Leo has provided as much vintage historical information as possible. Some of that information includes records of hide buyers and hide hunters. Many professional hunters kept records of the ratio of shots fired per hides harvested. This of course to keep a tally of expense to gross income so to accurately figure profit. The one hunter that held the closest ratio to a one to one shots per kill was Jim White shooting a 50-90 , 50 2 1/2" Sharps. Those records clearly show that as caliber went down the ratio of shots per kill went up. When caliber went to as small as 40 the ratio became extreme and cut heavily into profit. The few real professional hunters communicated their needs with the Sharps rifle company and they listened. With Jim Whites near 1 to 1 shots to kill ratio with his big 50 as they were then known it seems that Sharps was then offering perfection in buffalo hunting rifles. The 50-140 missed most of the action but even though it could add velocity to the same bullets it would be difficult to improve on a 1 to 1 ratio unless you started killing more than one with each shot. Then too there was the added expense of larger powder charges that cut down on profit margin. In my view working with the hunters for a decade the Sharps co. perfected the buffalo rifle when they developed the big 50 Sharps the 50 2 1/2" Sharps with their original load 50-90-550 PP
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 25, 2021 15:49:11 GMT -7
Am I mistaken, that I was under the impression that the older trapdoors, Allen conversions, & 1873 models, along with rolling blocks, all chambered in the government .50-70 round, killed more Bison, than the Sharps rifles did. I thought that I read that the big herds were pretty much gone by the time Sharps Rifle Co. got in the game?
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Post by missionary on Jan 25, 2021 16:24:26 GMT -7
The Allen conversion first came out in 1866 and were followed by improvements nearly yearly until the 1873 came along. Many units still used the caliber 50 well into 1874 as it took awhile to get the 73 supplied. But yes the caliber 50 rifles were well used Some troopers who ended enlistment bought or "took" a caliber 50 for personal use with some going out to the prairies as money was to made... It gets hard to account for the rifles The Sharps store in St Louis could not keep up with the demand. But that included the wagon trains headed west and every male was to be armed with a long gun. The so called Big 50 Sharps (50-120) was a late comer. But other Sharps calibers were around early.. 50-70 50-90 44-77 44-90 and numerous others were being used. But it is for sure many Buffs were done in by the Trapdoors.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 25, 2021 21:22:44 GMT -7
There may have been a lot of hide hunters but there were few professional hunters. Professional hunters made a profitable business of it and are the ones that could afford Sharps rifles. The Sharps was likely the most expensive rifle in use. I doubt that trap door rifles had yet been surplused out so there couldnt have been that many in use for buffalo hunting. I am sure that many muzzle loading rifles were used by men that dabbled in the hunt. In Leo's encyclopedia there are maybe a dozen prominent names that sold in bulk to the St. Lewis buyers. These hunters shipped by-annually usually out of Miles city Mt. loaded on stern wheelers headed down the Yellowstone to the Missouri and on to St. Lewis. Oddly it was the buffalo hunt that spurred on the industrial revolution in that it supplied leather belting to drive all the factory machines that were powered by steam piston and flywheel. It was these belt driven axles that made mass production possible and brought about the industrial revolution that would mas produce the killing machines of the war to end all wars.
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Post by missionary on Jan 27, 2021 13:36:39 GMT -7
One professional who I read about was Willian "Buffalo Bill" Cody. Back about 1867-68 he was feeding the west headed RR construction crews with meat. Buffalo and Antelope were the prime targets. Soewaht ore than 2800 Buffs fell to his 50-70 model 1866 Springfield Trapdoor. I am thinking the average range Wm Cody preferred was 200-300 yards although his longest shot was over 650 yards. That would be some doing even with a very good rear sight. I often wonder how any shots were needed to finally connect. Other hunters also well liked the caliber and rifles as any Army outpost / Fort had plenty of ammo and spare parts if needed.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 27, 2021 18:03:27 GMT -7
An 1866 I believe would be a first Allen conversion. If he was using an 1866 in the years 1867-68 they were still current issue so he had some clout with Gov ordinance. I don't think anyone could just go buy one at that time so they would be either issued to troops or allowed to special persons. My current 50-70 has an 1863 lock plate with an 1869 breach block. It has the long slider rear sight the reaches back slightly over the receiver when laid down. Not sure but think by 1669 they had finished the conversions from ML and were building start to finish 50-70 cartridge guns though they may have used older locks for still some time. They must have built a bunch of locks during the war because you encounter lots of 50-70 TD's of all stages of conversions with 1863 locks. Mine is a cut down rifle but a good representation of the original carbine in its form. Its a very handy size rifle for hunting WT deer in thick cover. I use it for hunting gophers. It might be a bit of overkill but fun none the less. It gives the gophers a sporting chance since the sound gets there before the bullet.
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Post by missionary on Jan 27, 2021 19:26:23 GMT -7
If I remember correctly Mr. Cody was also working as a part time scout for the Army in those parts. I do think the Model 1868 was the last one to have Civil War parts used on them. I have never seen a 1870 with older marked parts but the earliest ones may have. I have no doubt there were many lock plates, stocks, barrel bands, and other parts available to make the 50-70 models. With every model spare parts are made and usually many never get used.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 27, 2021 20:07:39 GMT -7
owning the 50-70 is a dream of mine. i have the 500 linebaugh in a tc encore rifle but it ain't the same, you know what i mean.
its good to know that the 50-70 is not dead.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 27, 2021 23:49:33 GMT -7
I found my 1871 New York Militia Remington Rolling Block at the annual Civil War weapon gun show in Ashland, OH back in the mid 1990's. I spent the biggest part of the day looking at .50-70's, as I had made up my mind that I wanted one in shooting condition, & also as an investment. There were probably close to a dozen there, so while checking them out, I kept going back to the 1871 that had a $650 price. I had sold some old Civil war gun parts, so, had cash in my pocket. About 30 minutes before closeup time, I went back to the dealer, after putting $500 in my pocket, & asked to look at it again, whereupon, he said, "You like it don't you?" I said yes, but I can only afford $500, & took the money out of my pocket & laid it on his table. He had his wife look in her little note pad, then said "it's yours" I got my receipt, & came home. Later, after trying to find brass, & finding out that it wasn't available, even thru Dixie Gun Works, I put it, along with 8 or 10 of my collection in a local American Legion War Vet Museum on display for almost 15 years. After Lew passed away, I brought all of them home except for my .58 Colt Musket, which I donated to the museum. Later, I found Starline brass, found out about some guy in MT that casts good bullets, slugged the barrel & sent him the sample, & started loading BP cartridges for .45-70 & .50-70. The first year I took it deer hunting here in Ohio, I under shot a yearling from the top of a ravine above the creek at about 25 yards, & haven't had another chance. I joined a local Conservation club in Nov., so that now I have a 100 yd range that I can go shooting this summer. I think I have about 100 cases for the .50-70, & about 300 .45-70, so, it'll be a fun summer.
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Post by missionary on Jan 28, 2021 8:10:01 GMT -7
Years back brass was not to hard to come by. 10 years ago patience ruled. Today is the stock up time while it is easy. But a New York Roller would be a fine addition. One of our caliber .43 Banana Rifles will get a new tube one fine day.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 28, 2021 15:45:31 GMT -7
Missionary, if you get back up north to the Land of Lincoln this year, let me know, & I might be ready to let the 1871 find a new home. I want to do some shooting with it at the club range when the weather warms up first. I have been gradually downsizing my "herd" over the past 5 years, as I'm now 78, & had 2 close calls in the last 3 years, that put me in the hospital. My better half isn't knowledgeable about values of my stuff, so it's better for her if I make it easier by letting them go. I'll keep the trapdoor & T/C Hawken .50 for Ohio deer hunting as long as I'm able to go. I promised my nephew in PA, as he's a deer hunter with sticks & strings, my original T/C that has a scope on it, & also my BP stuff & lead casting furnace. I could do my own casting, as I have about 125 lbs. of pure lead, but Daniel does such a good job with my orders, that I'll let him do that. Anyway, if you might be interested, at a reasonable price, keep me in mind. I live just east of Toledo, OH, so IL isn't that far away. I have loading dies & brass, but no mould. The ser.# is 1205., so I think it's a reasonably early one.
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Post by missionary on Jan 29, 2021 3:34:02 GMT -7
That # would be either the first or second batch.. I will have to check again but I am thinking NY bought 5000. A couple other states bought some but far fewer. Some years back we bought a Peabody (Providence Tool made) dropping block 45-70 made for Conn. Later Martini (England) bought the rifle then the patent rights to build their own.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2021 9:22:31 GMT -7
Back in the day before computers and internet and the source for all things gun was the shotgun news I was making brass for 50-70 from 348 WCF. Interestingly the 348 case was derived by Winchester engineers necking down the 50-110 WCF case. The 348 case rim dimensions are a bit off on the shy side for the 50-70 but since pressures for the old guns are so low you can get away with it. Some guns will extract the smaller rim and some will not. For the ones that will not I just carried a 45 caliber 500gn bullet in my pocket and would drop that in the muzzle to pop the empty out of the chamber. More recently 348 brass has been harder to find than 50-70. Starline started making 50-70 at least a decade ago but 348 brass was only run occasionally by Winchester and seemingly Remington quit making it all together. Most recently the situation has improved as Starline now offers both 50-70 and 348 brass. Where the 348 Win was originated from the 50-110 Win case the 50-70 gov, 50-90 Sharps and other 50 caliber loadings by Sharps all share the same larger thicker case rim and head diameters. The 50-110 WCF sounds like it should be good for big animals like buff but it was an express loading with light for caliber bullet weight at higher velocity than usually expected from BP cartridges. I have an original Ideal mold that was given to me by a gentleman that had been its owner for several decades for use with his model 1886 Winchester in 50-110 express. This mold drops a bullet at 280gn when cast in wheel weight alloy and closer to 300 when cast in pure lead. The 1886 in 50-110 had a very slow rifling twist so would only handle bullet weight up to about 350gn. The same was true with the Winchester express loading of the 45-90 in the model 1886. These express loads were better suited for game well on the shy side of 1000 pounds on the hoof and best avoided for game that might exceed 2000 pounds on the hoof. I recall in one of Leo's books taken from a letter written by one of the buff hunters that said the Winchester rifles were a laughing matter in the buffalo fields. He does not mention models or loads but had to be referring to model 1873 and model 1876 rifles. In the 1873 rifles the largest cartridge was the 44-40 and entirely too small and in the 1876 would be the 50-95 loading that used the same bullet as the 50-110 express loading so too light for buff so I can see why he would have said that. No doubt Winchester was up to the task but there timing was just a decade off. Had the Winchester model 1885 been available in 1875 the legends may today be told quite differently!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 29, 2021 11:58:40 GMT -7
Daniel, you should sit down with a recorder when you are relaxing & tell all of the information that you have locked up in your brain, so that it can be put in a book or on a CD disc. For me, reading your posts, is like listening to a newer version of Elmer Keith or Skeeter Skelton. Keep up the interesting stories, as they also bring out stories from Missionary & Todd.
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 29, 2021 12:02:57 GMT -7
when linebaugh was making the 500L, he also used the 348. it wasn't until starline started selling the 500L brass.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2021 12:14:10 GMT -7
Gary my friend to be spoken of in the same company as Elmer and Skeeter is the highlight of my career as a bullet man and an honor unimaginable! Thank you Sir but I feel undeserving of such an honor. I will never be able to look upon these men and others of their ilk on an eve keel but my gaze will always be at an upward angle!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 29, 2021 13:31:56 GMT -7
Dan, this is why, multiple times daily when I'm home, that I check this site, to read your stories, because you have lived an adventurous life, for someone of your age, & from where you started from in NY. Continue on, my friend.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2021 14:48:22 GMT -7
Lord willing !
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Post by todddoyka on Jan 29, 2021 15:34:58 GMT -7
Daniel, you should sit down with a recorder when you are relaxing & tell all of the information that you have locked up in your brain, so that it can be put in a book or on a CD disc. For me, reading your posts, is like listening to a newer version of Elmer Keith or Skeeter Skelton. Keep up the interesting stories, as they also bring out stories from Missionary & Todd. x2 i love the stories and the info that you provide.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2021 17:38:33 GMT -7
Gees !!! I think , hold on please I think I have something in my eye. Hope my girls don't see me this way. I am supposed to be their rock but right now just a puddle. Thanks guys !
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 29, 2021 18:22:52 GMT -7
OK back on track. In 1879 the Browning brothers patented a single shot rifle that they had little success selling from the Ogden Utah shop. Needing financing for Johns firearms design brilliance they sold the patent to Winchester which later became the Winchester model 1885. When the Browning brothers patented their rifle the buffalo hunt was winding down but had they attempted to target that remaining market things may have turned out differently. I am not sure what chamberings they offered their rifle in but think they were targeting more of a general purpose market for the average person weather eastern farmer or western frontier rambler. If they could have captured the market share that went to the C. Sharps company perhaps Winchester may never have obtained the patent for one of the best single shot rifles ever designed. To my thinking the Winchester 1885 is a far superior design than all the Sharps patterns accept for the late but best Sharps the Bordshardt. As for any side hammer Sharps the Winchester is stronger and has a faster lock time. The faster lock time is due to the much shorter throw or ark of a much lighter hammer. The lighter hammer is faster and it has less distance to travel. Another point I might make is that the heavy side mounted hammer of the Sharps tends to torque the rifle to one side when the hammer is set in motion and when it stops. The lighter hammer of the Winchester centrally located has the same reaction to action something like a push pull start stop reaction but since the hammer is centered the actions stay in line with the bore not torqueing to the side as the Sharps does.. Stronger as evidenced by the same basic design being chambered today in every imaginable high pressure cartridge available. Todays Browning model 1885 is a far different animal than its beginning lineage but the breaching system is essentially the same a thick hardened steel breach block with generous abutment engagement. The original flat main spring design of the Winchester was as simple as the Sharps for disassembly for cleaning and repair. Todays Browning 1885 not so has been made so complicated to dis and reassemble that the Browning techs told me they had trouble doing it. The issue is that there are so many internal detent springs and pins that one man does not possess enough fingers to compress them all at once to get the breach block and lever and trigger assemblies to slide back into the receiver. Working on them is a nightmare especially when you dont know that when the breach block reaches a certain point in disassembly those springs and pins go BOING and rapidly depart in several different directions simultaneously. Anyway just thinking on it if the Browning brothers had had a we little bit better luck selling their single shot rifle to finance other projects for Johns genius Winchester may never have become the giant that they are in the firearms industry.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 30, 2021 14:13:45 GMT -7
Being that the original J.B. design worked so well, & was easily disassembled either for cleaning or repairs, why have they changed the current models, by adding more parts, therefore making them almost irreparable for the average person, especially if you are in a hunting camp environment. I understand that coil springs are almost breakproof, but it would be easier to carry an extra leaf spring or 2 to have if needed.
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