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Post by shifty on Dec 24, 2020 14:17:00 GMT -7
I am in the process of building a 22 cal under hammer rifle and plan on using or trying PP ,has anyone here ever PP with such a small bullet?
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Post by missionary on Dec 24, 2020 16:03:33 GMT -7
Nope.... And to be honest my fingers have a tough enough issue with caliber .30.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 24, 2020 16:27:04 GMT -7
Ditto 30 cal is as small as my hand appendages will tolerate. Best of luck with your project and please keep us informed of your progress. Have you considered powder coating? I have gotten my best accuracy with our 451 Gibbs rifle with powder coated bullets. I guess I am assuming your under hammer is a percussion gun?
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Post by shifty on Dec 26, 2020 7:27:04 GMT -7
Yes it is a percussion #11 caps, and no i had not thought about powder coating because i knew nothing about the process. Do you think the coating would be uniform enough for such a small call. I have not made a bullet sizer yet i have several weeks left to get this rifle to the stage to where it is ready to fire. Does some one sale powder coated 22 cal bullets that i could try before i go to the trouble to learn the process ? Suggestions are welcome!
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 26, 2020 8:13:03 GMT -7
We could supply some. What is your rifles rate of rifling twist ? The twist will dictate the length/weight of bullet it will stabilize. What are your bore/groove dimensions? Do you have an idea of what your powder charges will be ? Black powder will foul a 22 bore quickly and the larger the charges the greater the fouling.
When BP was king there were some 22 cal CF cartridges like the 22 wcf, 22/15/60 Stevens and a few others as well as the RF's and all had minimal case volume for that reason.
As for coating uniformity yes I think so depending on how it is done. I could try but can offer no guarantee. Trying to coat tiny bullets may become a lesson in frustration.
I must now ask, why not conventional lubed cast bullets ?
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Post by missionary on Dec 26, 2020 9:27:52 GMT -7
We also powder coat cast. From .22 up to caliber .50 for our 50 Alaskan and 50-100.
Simple process. Place some PC in a Cool Whip (or whatever brand) tub. Add your cast. Swirl the cast around the tub about 2-3 minutes. Place on a bordered melt proof container. Bake in a pre-heated (to about 425-450 degrees) toaster oven for 25 minutes. Remove the cast and add more "swirled" cast to oven.
Yes this is a very simplized version but not to far off the mark. If I can do it anyone who can work a keyboard can.
It sure takes care of a cast slug moving down a barrel.
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Post by shifty on Dec 26, 2020 11:23:43 GMT -7
We could supply some. What is your rifles rate of rifling twist ? The twist will dictate the length/weight of bullet it will stabilize. What are your bore/groove dimensions? Do you have an idea of what your powder charges will be ? Black powder will foul a 22 bore quickly and the larger the charges the greater the fouling. When BP was king there were some 22 cal CF cartridges like the 22 wcf, 22/15/60 Stevens and a few others as well as the RF's and all had minimal case volume for that reason. As for coating uniformity yes I think so depending on how it is done. I could try but can offer no guarantee. Trying to coat tiny bullets may become a lesson in frustration. I must now ask, why not conventional lubed cast bullets ? I haven't ruled out any bullet ,i will try several types i would rather use the conventional lubed cast bullet i think, but i had just considered PP. The barrel has a 1-16 twist but don't know bore & groove dia. yet have not slugged the bore, but will. As far as powder i was going to start with 5 grns 3f ,do you have a suggestion for powder type and charge? Thought i would go with about a 40 grn bullet what bullets do you have and how are they priced? Would you give me your idea as to what bullet and powder you think would work? Thanks |
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 26, 2020 13:31:15 GMT -7
Your 1/16" twist will limit you to bullets on the lighter half of the spectrum of 22 caliber cast bullet designs. In a 22 hornet I shoot a couple different bullets I have modified to plain base by shortening the mold blocks to eliminate the gas check shank. This has proven to have shortened to bullet length enough that they shoot well in a 1/16" twist. The modified bullets weigh about 50gn. I am duplicating the performance of the BP 22 wcf at 1550 fps with a 46gn bullet. My load uses smokeless powder at 2.9gn of Accurate Arms #2 for 1550 fps MV, close enough!
At this velocity these modified 50gn bullets shoot well. If it worked well in the original BP 22 wcf it should also work well in a ML when properly loaded.
The greater challenge you will face is that of necessity you will be loading bullets with a diameter at or smaller than bore (not groove) diameter. With the very light weight bullets they offer little resistance to initiating movement so possibly may not obturate well enough to fill the grooves for the gas seal. If so all bets are off for accuracy. Your going to be looking for a balance between bullet weight, diameter, alloy hardness, powder charge, and bullet lube. Very likely you will be limited to pure soft lead but that is typical of ML and will handle velocities in the area of 1500 fps.
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Post by Junior on Dec 27, 2020 14:31:09 GMT -7
Will you be shooting smokeless?
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 27, 2020 14:58:05 GMT -7
I have been thinking on this a bit and I don't know why it didn't click for me earlier but if your muzzle loading and you started with a standard .244" groove barrel you are going to need bullets at or slightly over bore diameter.
Its pretty standard today for barrel groove diameter to be .008" larger than bore diameter. That allows a .004" groove depth. With a standard .224" groove barrel your bore diameter is going to be about .116". If so you will need bullets of about .116" to .117" diameter and I suspect will have to wipe the bore after each shot or you may not get the next bullet seated without hammering it into a wadcutter.
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Post by missionary on Dec 27, 2020 17:56:35 GMT -7
Hopefully the bore is .22 and the groove runs about .26+.
The smallest bore I know of is a Pedersoli .17 target rifle that gets powered by a 209 primer It is sold as a basement target rifle. Has a steel ramrod and shoots a HB pellet.
After that the smallest ML Pedersoli makes is a .32.
The smallest bore hunting ML Muzzleloaders.Com sells is .32. From what I see they are all for RB. But I did not read every add.
Custom makers will make anything..
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Post by shifty on Dec 28, 2020 7:21:55 GMT -7
Hopefully the bore is .22 and the groove runs about .26+. The smallest bore I know of is a Pedersoli .17 target rifle that gets powered by a 209 primer It is sold as a basement target rifle. Has a steel ramrod and shoots a HB pellet. After that the smallest ML Pedersoli makes is a .32. The smallest bore hunting ML Muzzleloaders.Com sells is .32. From what I see they are all for RB. But I did not read every add. Custom makers will make anything.. This is a custom rifle i am building myself ,i am using a Cooey 22RF barrel .216 bore and .222 groove best i can measure. |
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 28, 2020 8:51:00 GMT -7
Yup ! Bullets are going to be a problem. You can order a custom bullet sizer from Lee Precision but still sizing conventional 22 caliber cast bullets down about .010" is going to be damaging to those tiny bullets and may well end up closing the lube grooves completely.
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Post by missionary on Dec 28, 2020 10:46:03 GMT -7
Looks like the best route is a custom mold about the .215-217 area so mix can be played with a little.
Remember reading about the old muzzleloader rifles always came with the right mold for each one of them.
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Post by Bullshop on Dec 28, 2020 11:12:03 GMT -7
Will also require a custom lube/sizer die unless your mold drops exactly the diameter you want which is rare. All the custom mold makers I use guarantee .002" plus or minus targeted diameter.
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