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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2020 10:39:42 GMT -7
Recently we had an interesting experience with our Ruger 44 special. I was trying to develop a light accurate load for practice shooting and small game. On our powder shelf is a large caddy of American Select that was purchased a number of years ago during our previous presidential administration when component supply dried up and anything that became available was secured.
After things changed for the better this powder was overlooked on our shelf until now. I just decided it was time to use it and the 44 special was a good candidate for use to burn some of this powder.
In burn rate American Select is close to good old Bullseye which has always been a good choice for this type of load. Since loads would be very light I cast the 250gn Lyman SWC bullets from pure lead as I also carry this gun when I go to town so self defense is also on the list of possibilities.
Anyway to get to the point I had developed a very easy shooting load with 3.5gn of American Select with the 250gn bullet. It was quite accurate and very easy on the shooting hand. Using two boxes of 50 rounds each and after about 10 reloads I noticed some of the case mouths beginning to crack. Remembering back to my early days with the 44 magnum I remembered shooting my favorite load with 8.5gn Unique with this same 250gn bullet but in an effort to extend case life I did not crimp but only ironed out the case mouth flare to straight side. Back then in my 44 with the Unique load this shot good so after loosing some 44 special cases to cracks at the mouth I decided to stop crimping.
Now I know at times my trigger finger gets into a slump and needs more concentrated mental guidance so when groups from the next two boxes of ammo went south for accuracy I was blaming my unruly trigger finger for lack of obedience. After a time of self inflicted scolding for errant behavior and atrocious trigger control I remembered the change in crimp.
Ding ding ding, light bulb flashing ! Back to the loading bench resetting the crimp die for a full firm crimp and bingo!!! The pleasant accurate load came right back to being pleasingly rewarding on checking the target. Groups shrunk right down to where they had been. So now I think I will just anneal brass after about every half dozen shots to extend case life instead of omitting the heavy crimp for that same goal.
I had considered myself an advanced re-loader but apparently there are still lessons to be learned !
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Post by missionary on Oct 3, 2020 11:10:57 GMT -7
Well Dan I would have to write all you did was an experiment to find something out previously unknown. But when it did not pan out you remembered. That is the traits of an advanced re-loader. What you have done is passed on to us that American Select needs a good crimp to get the powder cooking right even with a heavy slug.
What would you estimate the FPS as with that load ?
We are also big fans of heavy soft cast in most applications. If the slug an bare the pressure it goes for the ride.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2020 12:48:17 GMT -7
I have not yet chronographed that load but I should. Just taking a WAG I would say between 650 and 700 fps. That may sound pretty anemic but when you consider that I have taken plenty of small game with about a 10gn pellet at about the same velocity it seems it would be more than adequate for that purpose. Also consider that back between the wars the army ordinance department did some testing to determine the minimum velocity of the 45 acp 230 rn round to penetrate human tissue. In that testing they determined that 300 fps was the minimum velocity required. With that it would also seem that I am far from helpless when going to town carrying that load.
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Post by missionary on Oct 3, 2020 13:20:05 GMT -7
If my thinker is working right the 44 Russian BP load with a 245 grain 40-1 slug was chugging along at about 650 fps and was noted as a healthy load for the S&W Russian revolver. None other than Elmer Keith referred to that same combination as a good fight stopper in the 41 Colt.
Being a shooter of both the 44 Russian and 41 Colt for years I can write I would not feel at all inadequate to have to use them in my defense.
Moving up to our use of 5 shot 44 Specials our loads of a 250 grain (range scrap) at abou8t 700 fps has proved to have all the penetration and expansion we ever needed. I sure would not want to get thwaped with one of those.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 3, 2020 15:45:18 GMT -7
Thwaped is the right description of the sound you would hear right before the lights went out.
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Post by Junior on Oct 3, 2020 22:28:18 GMT -7
Somewhere around here I have a large bag of once fired Starline 44 special brass I picked up somewhere.
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Post by missionary on Oct 4, 2020 3:57:46 GMT -7
Put the to use !!
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 4, 2020 8:15:01 GMT -7
Another discovery made last night while reloading the 44 special brass. I have two sets of dies for 44 mag/44 special. One is Hornady non lube type titanium nitride and the other RCBS conventional lube type dies. I had been using both sets together in different arraignments. Once I decided to pay attention to any possible differences I noticed that the Hornady FL sizer does not size as small as the RCBS and also that the Hornady inside expander is larger in diameter than the RCBS. What that translated to was when ever I used either of the Hornady dies either together or in conjunction with the RCBS dies I was producing ammo with less case neck tension than if I had used the RCBS set only. I had been combining the sets because it was faster to use the titanium sizer and also that I had both seater dies set up to seat bullets with one and crimp with the other. This whole arrangement set in a turret press for quick die changes.
Once I figured this out and went to the RCBS set only my trigger finger issue seemed less of a problem and groups are again bringing a smile when approaching the target.
So it would seem that not only the crimp but also firm case neck tension make more difference to powder ignition that one might think at least in this case. I believe I will soon be investing in a Lee case trimmer for the 44 special as well as a Lee factory crimp die. I feel a bit silly because all these things I have learned in rifle shooting but never considered that they were equally important for accurate revolver shooting.
I have had this revolver now for going on two weeks and have so far logged 550 rounds fired and in those rounds has been quite an eye opening experience.
For my rifle shooting I always develop loads but in the past for my handguns have only loaded ammo. That will now change.
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Post by missionary on Oct 4, 2020 13:28:46 GMT -7
Well Dan I must confess until I started shooting Silly-wets back in 82 I did not think much of load work for revolvers either. If it shot and I could hit the object I was happy.
It was during that time also we began segregating brass to firearms and neck sizing only unless a hot load was messing with brass diameter. In our 357 Dan Wesson with a 10 inch barrel guiding a 180 gr GC cast pushed by a healthy does of 296 that brass would not rechamber. But it sure was accurate and would take down rams if hit in the upper 2/3 of the body.
And I a glad we did the steel route as it was during that time ILL-Nois decided hunters could be trusted to pop corn crunchers with handguns. So we already had accurate loads ready.
We have numerous Lee factory crimp dies as we generally seat and crimp at different stations.
So yes we were similar.. decided hand guns an be much more accurate with a little work. Sometimes it takes a lot of work.
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Post by Bullshop on Oct 4, 2020 16:51:24 GMT -7
A limiting factor for me is my trigger finger. Some days its well mannered and obedient but some days it seems quite unruly and to have a mind of its own. I say squeeze but it says jerk. On those days it takes extreme concentration to overcome its will.
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Post by todddoyka on Oct 5, 2020 12:27:31 GMT -7
A limiting factor for me is my trigger finger. Some days its well mannered and obedient but some days it seems quite unruly and to have a mind of its own. I say squeeze but it says jerk. On those days it takes extreme concentration to overcome its will. ahhh.....i thought it was only me with an unruly trigger finger. some days the trigger finger is fine  , some days it is not.  on not fine days, its better off not to use the finger trigger.  i use a ruger sbh in 44 mag/44 spl and i think that the 44 spl is great. i haven't fired the 44 mag for about 2 years, the 44 spl is shot about last week. i use a skeeter load under a 250gr penta hp and 255gr keith type boolit. at 30 yards or so, its heck on deer. i haven't chronied it, but i guess that is going 850-900fps from a 4 5/8" barrel. i have a pound of titegroup around here somewhere, i WAS going to try it for the special, but unique is my favorite powder for revolvers. |
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Post by grasshopper on Aug 20, 2021 15:16:51 GMT -7
Hello all, I’m just a little late to the party here but felt like sharing a little of my experience with the 44 special. Early on as a younger man I hate to admit it but I thought the 44 special was a weak sister compared to the 44 mag and figured anyone that even considered carrying the special much of just been weak as well. Oh how time has changed my mind and thankfully as I’ve aged the lord has blessed me with a little more wisdom. The first thing to change and possibly the most important to me is no matter what caliber/gun combo you decide to carry if it works for you, fantastic! who am I to be so arrogant to tell you what you should carry. I’ve also found that for me and my tasks the 44 special will take care of about 90% of what the 44 mag would with the correct load. My all time favorite load for the special is 16-18 grains of 2400 with a 250gr Keith gc bullet. I have three 44 specials in my inventory right now. One is a Ruger flattop in 44 special with a 4 5/8 barrel they had a special run of a few years ago. Another was a gift from my wife’s uncle and it’s a second generation Colt SAA with a 4 3/4 inch barrel. Finally the one I carry most often is a pretty rare bird, it’s a Ruger speed six that was converted to a 5 shot 44 special back in the late 70s very early 80s by ASP. ASP was an outfit that started originally in NYC and cut down S&W model 39s for the CIA. They are really neat guns as well and have see thru lexan grips and a unique “guttersnipe” sight on top that was originally filled with tritium. Once I figure out how to post some pics here I’ll be happy to share some of the guns I described if there is an interest.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 20, 2021 16:52:56 GMT -7
I wanna see!!! I sure would like to spend a day with that Colt ! My 44 spl is the Ruger Bisley flat top with 5" barrel. It was a limited run for Lipsey's . It is absolutely my favorite revolver of all time. It is everything I want/need in an all around sporting revolver. It is accurate, has enough power for any task I may apply it to and does not make me blead. The 44 mag made me blead and so made me flinch. The Ruger is a wee bit on the heavy side but I have accepted that as a compromise for its performance.
Another revolver I really like is a S&W 1905 fourth change in 32-20 made in 1915 the year my Dad was born. Its a 6" barrel but even so carries pretty easy. With the longer sight radius and low recoil its real easy to shoot good but it comes up light in some sporting situations so my preference for the 44 special for all around use.
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Post by grasshopper on Aug 20, 2021 22:18:19 GMT -7
I sent Junior a message(actually a couple today) asking him to take pity on an older non tech guy and walk me thru the steps of posting pics to the different threads I think perhaps I can contribute some positive input. One of my favorite things is to see pics of the weapons folks describe when they talk about different loads that work for them and their guns. I will post a pic of that Colt SAA as soon as I figure it out. I will go ahead and share a little more about how it came to me. My wife’s uncle is still around and I believe he’s about 85 now. He was a young child during WWII and was a grown man working and married by the mid 1950s. Growing up during this time he always loved the cowboy movies and was determined to have a six gun of his own. While he owned four or five long guns and three handguns but he was never much of a hunter and certainly not a shooter because ammo was too expensive just to shoot tin cans or the like!🤣 Fast forward 30 or so years and all his kids are grown and he has grandkids and even great grandkids. He called me one day asking if I could help me clean his guns as I have all he would need for the chore. He brought the guns to my place all loose and not in any type of case or container to protect them! To my horror it got even worse, the guns were practically orange with rust! Apparently the gun safe he installed in his house was a cheap one and really just a locking metal cabinet. He installed it in his bedroom closet. The only problem was on the other side of the closet was the master bathroom! All those years of daily showers and baths had really taken there toll on those guns. I did the absolute best I could to preserve the guns without doing any further damage. He was very happy with the results and asked me which one I wanted as his children and most of his grandkids cared nothing about them. I picked one of the handguns. It is a second generation Colt SAA in 44 special with a 4 3/4 inch barrel. He told me he bought the gun two weeks before JFK was killed. He told me he couldn’t really remember if he had ever shot it or not! After his gift I saw him again about two weeks later at church where he gave me the box of ammo the gun store he bought the colt from gave him. It was a yellow box of 44 special, western brand by Winchester. It was a 50 round box and when I looked there were exactly six missing. He also told me he threw the stagecoach box it came with away when he got home!! When I got the pistol if you looked at the left side it looked about brand new, hardly if even a cylinder line. The right side was a different matter. He told me he stored it on the metal shelf in the safe with it sitting on a bath towel. So all those years of moisture apparently got into the cotton of the towel and did the damage. I have a pic of the gun when I got it and I’ll post them soon. It did more damage than I could fix myself for sure. Unfortunately it was left with a good bit of pitting. None of it affects the way it shoots though! I’ve thought about sending it someplace like Turnbull or such but they want about what a perfect original would cost today. As it is a cherished gift I’ll probably just keep it the way it is now and continue to enjoy it and leave it for my son to decide when I’m no longer around to shoot it. On another note Dan, the 32-20 sounds very interesting. I’ve never had any experience with it at all. If you have a need for it I have either 3 or 4 full factory boxes of 32-20 ammo. I will have to look as I don’t remember the brands right now but let me know if you need them for testing or such.
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 21, 2021 7:45:20 GMT -7
Thanks Rob that is a kind offer on the 32-20 ammo but I really have no need of it and would rather you keep it as gun show fodder. We sell quite a bit of 32 ammo in 32-20, 32 S&W long and 32 S&W short. Strangely the 32 short is the best seller and has gotten bid up to some insane ( to me ) prices. Anyway we have lots of new brass and bullets around here are still pretty cheap.
It seems like at the present time the most expensive component for loading ammo is primers. I just started shooting a 22 Squirrel after having the loading and forming dies for 28 years. With its heavy loads it get 1000 shots from a pound of powder at 7gn per round. With its light load at .7gn it gets 10,000 shots per pound of powder. We can still find these fast burning shotgun type powders for around $35.00 a pound here but the going rate for primers is $150.00 a brick of 1000. For the light load that comes to $1,500.00 for enough primers to go with $35.00 worth of powder and that just seems crazy.
Being the hoarder that I am we still have a fair supply of primers that we paid $18.00 per 1000 for so the current pricing is a bit too off the deep end for me. Last time it lasted for eight years of obama but I hope this time is shorter. People have to get back to work or we will of design I am afraid become a welfare state and of necessity for many surrender to socialism.
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Post by grasshopper on Aug 21, 2021 13:54:34 GMT -7
The last part of your post really scares me my friend. I couldn’t agree more with what you said and as you stated I think a lot of the masses to me anyway are extremely weak in mind and body and it has become a generational thing that just keeps passing from one generation to the next. Things around here are much more urban than where you are lucky enough to reside unfortunately. You would not believe the number of places that have help wanted signs! While the majority of these jobs are not the type you could really have any quality retirement from, if a person really wanted to work finding a job would not be an issue. The current state of affairs it seems to me anyway is such that folks can now pretty much stay at home doing nothing and make as much as they would working say 36 hours at one of the jobs I was talking about. Other than just personal pride why would you subject yourself to working when you could not work and receive the same pay? I just really hate it for all of our children and hopefully grandchildren because as you and I both know nothing in this world is really free and they will be paying for the poor decisions being made today. Reloading components here are still fairly scarce around here at the moment, at least in the larger chain stores around. Fortunately for me I have a buddy that owns a gun shop here and he was smart like you and started putting stuff back long before it became an issue. He still keeps me stocked in just about anything I need for I’d say no more than ten bucks more per component compared to what they cost pre hording. I’m not sure if it was quite as crazy out your way but the last gun show I went too I saw a guy pay $1400 for 1000 rounds of the steel cases Hornady 55gr 223 target ammo! I thought I would faint! I’m glad to hear you’re good on 32 stock. The only 32 I own is a Colt detective special in 32 S&W long my wife’s father gave to me. Interesting it’s marked 32 new police, guess Colt wasn’t gonna make a gun with S$W on it anywhere!!🤣
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Post by Bullshop on Aug 21, 2021 17:46:50 GMT -7
$1,400.00 per 1000 for 223 is unreal ! That's $1.40 per shot !!! When I was doing a lot of swaging I was selling loaded 223 with my bullets swaged from 22 LR empty cases at $400.00 per 1000. I have been so busy casting orders I have not swaged anything for sale in several years. I made up a small batch recently of 48gn BT-HP when I picked up a Ruger #1 in 218 Bee a couple months ago but not in any sellable numbers. Anything gun related is in high demand right now so making bullets and some obsolete ammo is keeping me plenty busy.
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Post by grasshopper on Aug 21, 2021 18:41:58 GMT -7
Well I’m really glad to hear you are busy with business although I know it can get in the way of winter prep and other endeavors that might need your attention. Hopefully it doesn’t keep you too busy so that it eats into hunting season! The Ruger number 1 sounds very interesting! I’ve not seen any in the smaller calibers in quite awhile around here. Almost a year and a half ago I traded into one in 257 Robert’s but didn’t keep it long enough to even shoot it. People here were or sure seemed to be panicked not that long ago, at that same show I also saw quite a few dealers selling fmj 9mm ammo for $2 a round and 380 was double that if you could find it! Just insane to me and I hate to say never but I’d just never pay that. It’s gotten better as of late for almost everything except for 300 blk out. Luckily I’ve always been a bit of a hoarder and have more ammo than I think I will ever shoot and I’m always loading more!
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, some days it is not. 
on not fine days, its better off not to use the finger trigger. 
