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Post by Junior on Jun 5, 2020 0:08:26 GMT -7
Finally getting a chance to play with some hand loads in my Marlin 94 classic in 32/20. Mounted my skinner express rear sight on it. With the factory ammo I have it was shooting about 2” high at 20 yards so I swapped out to a taller front. The only sight I had on hand was about 1/2” tall so now it’s shooting 2” low but I’ll file it down to what I need.
Grabbed a box from the top of the stack of 32 bullets I have which was the 90gn NEI gas check.
Looking in my loading manuals I’m seeing all very slow powders for the 32/20 in the rifle side, but in the pistol loads I’m seeing some faster powders. I have 4 pounds of a old Winchester powder called 450LS which is almost impossible to find any info on, but I think it’s about the same as win 231. I’ve tried it on several other cartridges with no good results but thought I would try it with the 32/20. Starting with 4 grains and a Remington 6.5 primer I started shooting at 20 yards with about 1 inch groups, which is better then the factory lead ammo, but not as good as I hoped for. Played up and down with the charge but never got any better then that. I have had no luck with this powder in anything else, but had to try it since I have so much of it.
Switched over to Alcan #7 and a starting load of 6.5 grains. Didn’t get a chance to shoot this load yet though since the well drilling guys got stuck on my land and I spent the rest of the day with a loader trying to dig them out. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to play with this more tomorrow.
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Post by missionary on Jun 5, 2020 5:11:02 GMT -7
I would take that 1 inch at 20 yards and see what it does at 40 yards. I have more than once discovered it was more me than the load.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 5, 2020 7:47:03 GMT -7
I like the old Alcan powders. They burn very clean. Alcan #7 will be in the burn rate area of Hercules/Alliant Blue Dot. AL#8 will be closer to 2400 . The very first 44 mag ammo loaded by Remington for the joint effort between them and S&W to introduce the 44 mag was loaded with AL-8 powder. The Herter's powders were made by Alcan and imported by Herters.
That NEI 90gn GC is the go fast bullet for 32-20. As such it does well with stiff charges at about 100% load density of H-110 in rifle loads assuming the rifle is up to the chamber pressure. Rifles like the Win 92 or Marlin 94 are good to go but not so for the Win 73 or some of the weaker single shots like the Stevens 44. The Win 1885 and Steven 44 1/2 are good to go.
In my experience best accuracy in the 32-20 in rifles comes from what became the standard bullet weight the 115gn bullet at chamber pressures acceptable for all 32-20 rifles and handguns. About 3.5 to 4gn Red Dot with a 115gn or about with or without a gas check had become an accuracy standard for me in either our Marlin 94 or S&W K frame. This is the type of load I most prefer to shoot. The Hot loads have a place but for me that place is not in the just for fun class.
That Win 450 powder was discontinued a long time ago and likely for good reason as you are seeing. I believe one of those reasons was fouling. If I am not mistaken W-450 was an early ball powder that would foul badly at less than optimum chamber pressures. That means little flexibility with powder charge variations. With pressures less than optimum for a clean burn you will need to keep a cleaning rod handy. Maybe better relegated to colorful display in the man cave or convince someone else it would be and trade for something more suitable.
The Alcan #7 should burn clean but remember the burn rate at about that of Blue Dot which would make it better for magnum type loads (rifle) than for reduced velocity loads (pistol).
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Post by Junior on Jun 5, 2020 12:07:08 GMT -7
I was curious about using H110 in the 32/20. It seems like they show quite a bit hotter loads for the 25/20. I have quite a bit of magnum pistol stuff, but very lean pickings in the faster powders like Red dot.
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Post by Junior on Jun 5, 2020 17:37:51 GMT -7
Well, the Alcan #7 was a bust. Started at 6 grains and worked up to 8.4. Started to show some accuracy potential right at the end, but started to have the extractor not pull cases from the chamber so gave up on it. Looking in all my reloading manuals, one powder I was surprised to see was IMR4898. Seems a bit slow burning to me and with the long grains wouldn’t be my first choice for a small case, but I have 10 pounds of it so figured what the heck, I’ll give it a try. Starting with 11.4 grains I shot the group shown below. The flier was my second shot, which was a round that did not feed and buggered the nose pretty bad. At 11.4 grains I was getting quite a bit of unburned powder left in the cases, so I worked up to 12.6 which is where I could tap the cases on the bench and not have powder granules come out. Accuracy was still quite good so I loaded up the rest of those bullets with that load. The rifle is a bit of a picky feeder. It has to be pointed up at least a little and not tilted to either side or it will jam up. It also is still jamming up because it is letting the rim of the second cartridge start out of the tube and hang up on the top of the lifter. Kind of a pin to clear. I’m going to have to take it apart and mess with that as some point. Next time I get off I’ll start playing with some of the heavier bullets I have. http://instagram.com/p/CBEecnlpRhj |
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Post by missionary on Jun 5, 2020 19:03:04 GMT -7
The Marlin Jam shows it's ugly head again.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 5, 2020 19:31:58 GMT -7
You need to work over the lifter. Look at it closely and study its motion. It needs just enough clearance to swing up just past the rim of the next cartridge and no more.
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Post by Junior on Jun 6, 2020 19:02:01 GMT -7
I’ll have to pull the lifer and work it over. I probably won’t have tile till October or so though. I adjusted the skinner sights all the way up and was able to get on target. I’ll trim a bit off the front sight at some point, but this will work for now. That is one thing I don’t like about the skinner sights, is they don’t have as much adjustment as I would like. After I adjusted the sight I fired a shot on the cardboard up high and then at at 15 yards or so fired 4 more off hand. I think it will work good enough for rabbits and grouse. http://instagram.com/p/CBHaTc2Juci |
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 7, 2020 8:22:15 GMT -7
Here is an interesting tidbit for you. Long ago I read a Washington state F&G report on a survey done on cartridges in use for elk hunting in the state. The survey was done about 1950 so just half a decade after the close of ww-2. There was quite a variety of different cartridges in use and interestingly the 30-40 was more popular in this survey than the 30-06.
What I found very interesting was that in this small survey at that time the 32-20 topped the list. This not because the 32-20 is an elk cartridge but more likely because at that time money was tight and people made due with what ever they had available. This is a testimony though to what most people had available in hard times. People of the day had to make wise choices for the one gun they could afford to be called on to cover a wide range of uses.
Since its inception in I believe 1873 the 32-20 have likely eliminated more chicken thieves than any other cartridge in regular use for that purpose on small farms coast to coast.
It just stands to reason that if the two choices were to not elk hunt or to elk hunt with the 32-20 well for me that would really not even be a choice. Nope it will never be rated as good for elk but in capable hands above average things become possible.
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Post by Junior on Jun 7, 2020 10:24:39 GMT -7
I have been watching for a 218 bee or 25/20 for awhile. I wasn’t really looking for the 32/20 but it popped up and the price was right. I need to get the feeding issues smoother out but I think it will be a favorite around here.
As far as shooting elk with it, I’m sure it would do just fine on the right shot. I killed a lot of Beef when I worked for Paul with that 300 blackout loaded to 32/20 ballistics. I started using the 300 blackout after that one large bull didn’t drop with the 22/250 and I had to resort to my side arm to keep from getting stomped on. With the blackout and I never had any not drop on the first shot. I was using 90gn XTPs at about 1250 FPS
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 7, 2020 13:10:48 GMT -7
There aren't near as many 218 bees around as there are 25-20 and 32-20 and they are about twice the price when you find one. I have a 25-20 built on an 1898 Springfield with a 1/10" twist barrel. It loves our 117gn bullet usually intended for the 25-35. I have shot some 3 shot half inch groups at 100 yards with a load that does 1750 fps with that bullet. Used it to fill a B tag last fall.
I was today working on a quiet load that wont bother the neighbors to keep gophers out of the garden. It is using our 60gn FN-PB with 3.3gn of IMR SR-7625. I have no idea of the velocity but it shoots well enough to make head shots at 50 yards. It has quite a wide meplate so should be very effective for the job. The bullet is so short though it will be very limited in range because having the BC of a brick will shed velocity fast.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 8, 2020 10:48:31 GMT -7
On the issue of the case rim jamming with the cartridge lifter I tried two different ways to alleviate the problem. Both ways worked but one seemed to work better than the other and I will explain that later.
The issue is that the rim of the next cartridge in the mag tube is allowed to extend past the mag tube then the upward motion of the lifter lifts that rim to a point where the top portion of the rim will catch on the top edge of the mag tube so the lifter can not push it back into the tube. At this point the leading edge of the lifter the curved portion is supposed to push the next round back into the mag tube so the lifter is free to make its upward ark to raise its cartridge to the chamber.
The spring loaded tension of the mag tube spring pushing the base of the next round into the bullets meplate of the cartridge to be lifted with enough friction that the contact causes the rim of the next case to catch on the top of the mag tube preventing it from being pushed back into the mag tube thus causing the jam as the rim of the next case stuck in this position does not allow enough room for the lifter to pass.
Now in dealing with this situation my first attempt at a fix was to extend the leading edge of the lifter so that it would not allow the rim of the next case to extend past the edge of the mag tube. This method got good results but it cause other issues. One of those issues was that it made the action stiff to work like it had drag on it and it did. Another issue was that to feed smoothly cartridge OAL was critical to proper function.
The second attempt at free dependable cycling was to disregard the rim protrusion from the mag tube and allow enough clearance of the ark portion of the lifter that even with the rim jam at the top of the mag tube the lifter had enough clearance that it could pass by the rim of the next cartridge and lift its carried cartridge into chambering position.
This method worked better because it eliminated the bind in the action and it was no longer dependent on cartridge OAL to function properly. In fact done this way even allowed the free cycling of 38 special ammo.
I think that in many cases what is causing the jam issue is a cosmetic shortfall of the cartridge lifter itself. The lifter is a casting and as such has a mold seam line running down its middle. This mold seam line adds enough length to the lifter to cause the problem. Since production rate is important to big business they don't have time to properly hand fit these parts so they go in with little effort to detail on assembly. A little bit of filing of the mold seam line is likely all that is needed in most cases. Since I seldom seek help on such issues my learning curve was likely a wee bit longer because as I said I tried two different methods to solve the problem and finally was successful.
Also I should add that I feel the lifter I was working with in Old Ugly was not the correct lifter for the 357 mag. I say this because it could not lift a 357 mag cartridge high enough to come anywhere close to aligning with the chamber. I feel fairly certain that this lifter was for a fatter case possibly a 41 or 44 mag. To fix that problem I soldered a fairly thick section of 45-70 brass in the cradle of the lifter then slowly worked it down until in the full up position it had cartridges perfectly aligned with the chamber. It now feeds smoothly and dependably and as I said will even feed 38 special dependable.
When you get to doing yours please keep us posted with your procedure and results. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jun 8, 2020 12:43:49 GMT -7
Daniel, if junior would be interested, I still have the Model 92 Winchester .25-20 that I had with me when I visited with you. The ser.# is 905597. It is a solid frame model. If he's interested, it goes with reloading dies, empty brass, some jsn bullets, & I think almost 2 boxes of ammo. Whatever I have in .25-20 will go with it. It has lived with me since Jan. 1968, so I would like for someone to get it & enjoy it as I used to. It was my groundhog & crow rifle on the farm, until I bought the .30 M-1 Carbine that I've owned since Nov. 1969. I never had a running groundhog that could outrun those 110 gr. JSN Speer .30 bullets. The "92" was too slow for needed multiple shots when they were running for the hole. The best shot with the Carbine was at a paced off 197 paces from where I was watching a groundhog sunning himself on his dirt pile. I rested the gun on my arm on the roof of my car (back in a hayfield), looked at it through the rear peep sight, & thought "that's a long football field", slid the peep sight up to the 2nd notch, put the g.h. on the top of the front sight, centered it in the rear peep, squeezed the trigger, & it never moved. I walked across the field, & the shot hit it dead center between it's eyes. My dad witnessed the shot, & could hardly believe it. I have owned 4 carbines, but this U.S. Postal Meter with a Marlin barrel is extremely accurate.
If there's interest in the "92", let me know. Take care, Gary.
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Post by Junior on Jun 8, 2020 16:50:45 GMT -7
Gary, I would be very interested in that 25/20. Send me a PM with some more details if you would please.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jun 9, 2020 11:35:02 GMT -7
Daniel, I just sent you a friend request on FB, then on messenger sent photos of the rifle & the ammo, loading dies, brass & what I have left, half of a box (50) of 60 gr. .257 JSP bullets. I must have loaded 50 rounds. I got married in Oct. 1973, moved from the farm to rental property 165 miles away, & never reloaded another round of any ammo, until I started loading .45-70 & .50-70 black powder rounds for deer hunting here in Ohio, & to go to Forsyth, MT in 2016,17 & 2018. I ordered my bullets from your dad, & became friends with him, so in 2018, I drove across MT, just to visit with him. I've never met your mom, but have talked with her on the phone a few times. They're very nice people. If you do buy this rifle, I have a friend that has the Fed. Lic., & would it go to you in AK, or to your dad in MT? I suppose it would go UPS, or whatever you suggest, as it's been since mid 1970's since I sold & shipped a gun, a .32 rimfire S & W Model 1, to Fargo, ND. I traded it for an old S.A.A Colt .44 W.C.F., that I still have.
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Post by todddoyka on Jun 10, 2020 19:23:23 GMT -7
my brother is trying to find a single shot or a bolt rifle in 32-20 or 25-20. he hunts coyotes and he's tired of patching holes with the 22-250. in the woods he hunts, it would be 60 - 70 yards and less.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 11, 2020 8:39:10 GMT -7
Don't rule out the 22 Hornet! Hi my name is Daniel and I am a hornet-a-holic. If I were a practical man searching for hornet performance I would by a 223 and down load it. Proof that I am not a practical man is the fact that I shun the much less expensive and more readily available 223 in favor of the more expensive and less available 22 Hornet. It makes little sense other than it is my addiction.
When I was a wee sprout no one had ever heard of a 223 but every kid had heard the legends of the Hornet. Likely due to its use during the great depression just a couple decades earlier in providing large and small game for many families.
I am likely one of few that can claim its use in dispatching a pair of Yak with as many shots. Simply put it can perform out of proportion with its minuscule appearance. Also most guns in 22 Hornet are proportioned on the smallish light weight side so easy to carry in a days walkabout. Too there is the fact that at least with vintage 22 Hornets that used a rifling twist rate of 1/16" that is very compatible with cast bullets, something that is important to me. Yes indeed the slower twist will limit bullet length but with cast bullets not so much weight. The reason is that in general jacketed bullets are longer for weight than cast bullets especially in spitzer shape. So if you read that a 1/16" twisted Hornet will not stabilize a 55 gn jacketed spitzer bullet that is likely true but the same twist will stabilize a 55gn cast flat nose bullet just fine.
So if you are like me willing to defy all logic in pursuit of an addiction go ahead and indulge yourself with a 22 Hornet.
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Post by todddoyka on Jun 11, 2020 11:11:15 GMT -7
i got rid of all my 22 centerfires. i use the 20 vartarg now. but it just don't seem right to not have a a 22 cf. i have narrowed down to three cartridges: 22 hornet, 22 k-hornet or 22 lovell 2r. i know of a place that i get a 22 lovell 2r(barrel action minus the trigger) but i don't have the money to get it(or the stock and trigger, the custom dies and 25-20 ss brass). although it sound "cool" to have one, the money does not!!!! it will go to my unfunded bucket list. since i like "older"(on no!!!! i'm am getting older  too.) cartridges, the 22 hornet should be all i want in a cartridge. i know for a fact, that farmers' use them to cull deer and other small varmints. since i'm not into long shot(300+ yards), i figure that 200 yards+/- is about all i want for groundhogs, foxes and coyotes. i have shot a groundhog at 347 yards(laser range finder thingy) with my 20 vartarg and 34gr midway/midsouth hp and rel7, but most of the groundhogs are 150-200 yards shots. foxes and coyotes are around 50-100 yards at nite. in the daytime woods they are 50+ yards, but they are scarce. i would like to own a cz 527 in 22 hornet, but i'll take either a savage m340 or savage m219. or if i'm really lucky, a remington rolling block!!!!! that would be costly to own!!! a 22 kilbourne hornet is also on the table, but i'm deciding on the velocity is too much or enough to take a fox or a 'yote at 100 yards and less. or am i weighing too much on the subject?! i should just take the 22 hornet and be happy with it. |
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 11, 2020 16:07:38 GMT -7
Tod you know you are forcing me to indulge my addiction ! Now in that matter I have to voice my opinion to some points you have made.
#1 is in regard to the 22 Lovell. There were three, the 22-3000 Lovell, the 22 2-R Lovell , and the 22 maximum Lovell. All are great cartridges my preference going to the original version the 22-3000 Lovell
I did have the pleasure of stewardship of a fine Stevens model 44 1/2 chambered for the 22-3000 a very long time ago. It had a 15X Unertal return to battery scope mounted and was an absolute pleasure to shoot with cast bullets. It was made with a repurposed heavy model 52 Winchester barrel so was originally intended to shoot lead alloy bullets. Even at that time brass was very difficult to secure. I had a batch of the Griffin & Howe brass that was run in the 50"s that was the last commercial run of brass for the 25-20 SS and the Lovell cartridges. This brass was well worn when I got it and there was no source for replacement. For that reason I parted, reluctantly so with the rifle. If you go with the Lovell the brass situation has not changed. I have in my possession two new boxes of 25-20 SS brass being held in reserve just in case another such rifle should ever reside with us again.
#2 the standard hornet is a solid 200 yard performer even with cast bullet loads that duplicate the even older 22 WCF from which the 22 Hornet was derived. The BP 22 WCF did 1550 fps with a lead alloy 46gn bullet. In my hornet shooting I duplicate this load with a 50gn cast bullet modified from the RCBS mold by milling down enough of the block tops to eliminate the gas check shank. This plain base bullet is loaded with 2.9gn of AA #2 powder for the same 1550 fps velocity. There have been numerous gophers in my pasture that can not deny the 200 yard potential of this moderate Hornet load.
#3 The CZ 527 Hornet is a fantastic rifle. Their hammer forged barrels are superbly accurate. In comparison to other Euro produced Hornet rifles the CZ maye be a wee bit less refined as to finish but as for function is second to none. It is likely the best on the market today as to quality and pricing. Any other Euro Hornets better only in name will start at three times the price and go up from there.
Well there you go just one mans opinion based on a well earned addiction.
Oh yea I almost forgot one other point I should address as to your concern of too much velocity for fur. I have found that bullets made from 22 rf jackets annealed soft are absolutely perfect for hornet velocity. These very thin skin soft jackets give exactly the right amount of controlled expansion for the velocities of the Hornet and can usually be found fully expanded under the hide on the off side of fox and coyotes. That total energy dump hits with the authority of Thor's hammer on game this size. Its nice to know someone that makes those, and you do!
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Post by todddoyka on Jun 11, 2020 19:26:22 GMT -7
its good to see that i'm not crazy every time i say 22 lovell!!!
i like the cz 527 but i don't have the money to get it. maybe i'll get another stimulus check and buy it, but i don't think its likely.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 12, 2020 6:36:57 GMT -7
The 25-20 SS brass I have was made by Schroeder Bullet Works. It is made from 223 brass so can be done but the conversion is not simple. It requires swaging and lathe turning. The same goes for the 22 Cooper brass from them made from 22 Hornet brass. Yes it can be done but no not by simple means.
I have tried to make the 22 CCM brass from 22 Hornet but have so far been unsuccessful. Making 25-20 ss from 223 will have no less level of difficulty.
There are others claiming to be producing this brass but at about $5.00 or more each just leaves me waiting and watching.
There are a lot of Stevens model 44 rifles on the market chambered for the 25-20 Stevens which is none other than the 25-20 SS. If someone would make some affordable brass those rifles could be put to use again.
The last time I was in contact with Schroeder he was recovering from surgery and only selling off his inventory not producing more. That was a few years ago so I don't know what he is up to presently.
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Post by todddoyka on Jun 12, 2020 10:19:53 GMT -7
i'd wait and see too, if the brass is $5 plus for each piece!!!!!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jun 14, 2020 10:41:39 GMT -7
Daniel, after reading your post about the .25-20 s.s. brass, & got into the .25.20 box of ammo, brass, bullets & loading dies that will go with my '92 Winchester if or when I sell it. There was a box with, i think, 23 U.M.C. .25-20 S.S. emptys, still with spent primers, that are slightly tarnished, so I just put them in my Lyman Turbo 1200 with corncob cleaner.
I sent your son pictures & info. about the '92, with a price of $1,200 for everything, but he replied that he can't afford it now. If you are interested, tell me how to post the photos on here, & I'll send them to you.
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Post by Bullshop on Jun 20, 2020 10:28:14 GMT -7
It was just brought to my attention (again) that there was yet another 25 caliber center fire chambered in the model 44 and 44 1/2 Stevens rifles which was the 2525 Stevens. The 2525 was a really, REALLY long straight wall case that in appearance looks like something you might expect to see at a Barnum & Baileys freak show.
That one says Barns cartridge conversions must be made from bare stock.
Strangely enough BAC lists loaded ammo for sale as well as Bertram brass. In my experience Bertram brass is usually good for one shot but can at times also come pre-cracked right from the box.
Anyway from a contributor the identifying distinction of the rifles chambered in 2525 is the location of the extractor. Normally in all other model 44 rifles the extractor is located at 6:00 directly under the chamber but in the variant model housing all 2525 chamberings the extractor is located at 7:00. So with that warning if anyone is looking at a Stevens model 44 rifle stamped 25 Stevens check the position of the extractor!!! Still even if the extractor is located at 6:00 it is most likely a 25-20 SS not a 25-20 WCF. I believe there were some chambered in the wcf but they are stamped 25-20W . Most will be in 25-10 rim fire. The 25 caliber Stevens rifles are fun guns but maybe a bit confusing to figure out.
We have one that started out as a 32 RF but is now a 32 S&W long CF. It is a most enjoyable plinking rifle. With the 25 RF guns the same conversion is difficult because I believe the 25 RF used a .251" groove barrel where the 25 CF chamberings used a .257" groove and possibly slightly faster twist
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too.) cartridges, the 22 hornet should be all i want in a cartridge. i know for a fact, that farmers' use them to cull deer and other small varmints. since i'm not into long shot(300+ yards), i figure that 200 yards+/- is about all i want for groundhogs, foxes and coyotes. i have shot a groundhog at 347 yards(laser range finder thingy) with my 20 vartarg and 34gr midway/midsouth hp and rel7, but most of the groundhogs are 150-200 yards shots. foxes and coyotes are around 50-100 yards at nite. in the daytime woods they are 50+ yards, but they are scarce.