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Post by Bullshop on Jan 22, 2020 9:09:31 GMT -7
In watching some YouTube videos recently on long range hand gun shooting it became obvious that perhaps Elmer's trick is not as well known as I had thought. In watching these videos done by professionals and professional wanabees and some that are famous enough that you would think that surely they should know the trick.
Still to my surprise I see the repeated statement that "" I had to completely block out the target with the front sight and aim at some point far above the target"". This statement confused me greatly because the way I was taught to shoot long range with a revolver always uses the same front sight picture and never blocks the target with the front sight no matter what the range. The way I was taught always uses the same can on a post front sight picture and what changes depending on the range is how far the rear sight is lowered from the guns zero of level/level front and rear.
I describe the guns zero sight picture as a can on a fence and by that I mean the top of the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight and the aiming point appears to be setting on the top of the front sight blade, like a can on a fence. Now just imagine looking at a four strand fence with a can as the target sitting atop a fence post. Your zero range will have the front sight level with the rear with no fence post showing and with only the can showing atop the front sight. Now imagine each strand of wire of the fence is the top of the rear sight lowered enough to correspond to some longer range. This is the way I was taught so the front sight picture is always the same like a can on a fence and for progressively longer ranges the rear sight is lowered for longer ranges just like the wires of the fence .
On his personal revolvers Elmer had gold bars inlaid into his front sight post each bar corresponding to a specific range when the top of the rear sight was aligned with each gold bar. In this way he did not have to guess about a point on the front sight that the rear sight had to align with as he could see it on the front sight. This for him was a repeatable system that made long range shots more possible. This though is limited to the height of the front sight. I often attempt shots that have the top of my rear sight aligned with the front sight base, or even some mid point of the barrel . This for sure is for extreme range shooting but can drop bullets surprisingly close to the intended target at some very long ranges. For me this is some real fun in revolver shooting to pick some distant boulder 6, 7, or 800 yards distant and walk the shots in until the right rear sight picture (fence line) is learned then fire for effect.
I will share a little history of my long range revolver shooting mentor. His name was Erv Malnorich. When they were young men Erv and Elmer were partners in a packing business. When the packing business ended Erv started a guiding business in what is now the Bitterroot Selway wilderness area. Erv had quite an operation going when the wilderness act of congress put him out of business. The feds paid him $00.50 per acre on his claim and burned all that he had constructed. At the heyday of his operation Erv would guarantee a client a 6 point bull elk. This was written up in many of the gun mags in the 50's. After Erv was forced out of his guiding business he went to Hamilton and started the ERv Malnorich guide school and this was where I met him.
We became friends as I was always very interested in talking guns and learning from him. Suffice to say Erv was old school MT. who would fight at the drop of a hat and he would donate the hat but quit just as quickly if a surrender was made and immediately switch to drinking whisky he doing the buying.
At one of our whisky drinking adventures Erv brought out an unmarked N frame S&W 44 mag that was one of two pre model 29 tool room jobs made for Elmer. Elmer had given one to Erv to shoot some elk with back in the Selway and then Elmer wrote up the reported results in his writings of the day. Erv was a darn good shot with a revolver too and in picking his brain is how I came to learn the Elmer trick for long range revolver shooting.
I tried to get that tool room 44 from Erv but what he told me was to ask his widow. Nuf said !
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Post by missionary on Jan 23, 2020 6:44:55 GMT -7
Good morning
I think it was about the time I started shooting the steel critters with our Dan Wesson the light started functioning in the brain about the relationship of front and rear sights. First got to thinking about "barrel tilt" at tank range in the Army. Standing off to the side it was easy to see the elevating barrel for 2000 meter targets.
As long as the rear sight could be elevated it forced the front sight to be raised higher on a rifle or pistol.
At that time our club was shooting on an old NG range on the west side of Danville. That range had a 500 yard bern. Our 357 DW with a 10 inch barrel had plenty of rear sight elevation for 200 yards. But about 250 yards was beyond that revolvers most accurate 180 grain load. But I figured out if I raised that front sight just a hair above the rear sight I could nail a 300 yard ram.
Well once I got that settled I decided I needed a very tall wood frame to begin shooting out to 400 and 500yards. So made a 6 foot tall target holder from light wood and set it out there at 400. Guessing about how much hold above rear sight was needed I fired 3 shots and in that way figured out my 400 yard sight view. 500 yards was beyond the range of that front sight to be elevated high enough. Probably the 6 inch barrel would have been better for that much tilt up but that 10 inch barrel still will out shoot any 357 DW barrel I have tried.
About twenty years ago I read what Mr. Elmer Keith had been doing with the Colt SAA and other revolvers at long range and he put it into better words to explain. I think that was in an Handloader article. But as I read it was easy to picture in my mind.
Down here in Peru I carry a Colt 6 shot Revolver Police Positive Special that I cut the 4 inch barrel down to 1 7/8 inches. Where I stop out in the desert to eat a sandwich on my way to the villages where I have weekly Bible study are several open areas where I can shoot out to very long distances. It is surprising how accurate that short stubby barrel is out to long ranges. Numerous rocks are out there that give a good high hold front sight picture. Not that I can hit them all the time but once I get the hold above the rear sight figured I can be close.
Thank you for writing this up. It is another "tool" in the Hangunners box that makes shooting very interesting and do-able.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 24, 2020 15:23:29 GMT -7
Daniel, I just enjoyed your Elmer Keith references. Somewhere in a box of my books is his book "Sixguns". Many years ago, I acquired it in a box of books that I bought at an auction. It & "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern were both well used before I got them, & then I read both of them from cover to cover. McGivern's book is still in the living room bookcase. Do you have either of these books? At my age, I won't ever read them again, & they don't mean anything to anyone in the family. If you would like to have them, ( only know where 1 of them is now), I'll send them to you. Promise that you'll not neglect your work to read these very interesting (to some of us) books. Let me know.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 24, 2020 15:46:13 GMT -7
That my friend is a very kind and generous offer that I would like to take you up on. Tina always tells me to just say thank you but I always feel like I should offer something in return so if there is something you need by way of bullets please let me know.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 24, 2020 20:37:05 GMT -7
As I said earlier, I have the McGivern book here beside me, so I'll get it packaged, & out hopefully by Monday, as we're going away tomorrow all day. I took some of my older books out of the small bookcase last year, & boxed them up. Now all I have to do is locate which box Elmer's book is in. As an American History buff, I have multiple boxes & tote tubs of hardback & magazines about the Wild West, the Civil War (now reading a very good book about Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest), a couple boxes of various gun magazines from the 1960's & 70's, WW 2. My wife is trying to start cleaning out & donating clothes we don't wear anymore, Christmas decorations that don't get used, & etc. She asked me if I had anything to get rid of, & I said no, I might need it again. She wasn't happy with my answer. I have approximately 2,000 - 3,000 pieces of various patterns of Fenton, Westmoreland & Fostoria glass, that we started collecting back in the 1970's, that I wanted to get into the flea market business when I retired. Well, the financial recession a few years ago, plus the younger generations aren't interested in keeping things they don't need, now I have probably $25,000 to maybe $35,000 invested over a 20 year period, that is for all purposes worthless now. Oh well, I had fun collecting it, & met a lot of good people while doing it. Maybe I should have bought more guns & less glass. I donated both of my Remington civil war revolvers to the State of West Virginis Archives & History Dep't last summer. One, the .36 Navy conversion to .38 Colt Center Fire, had belonged to my Great Grandfather, & I had owned it since Oct. 1968. I didn't ever want it on a dealer's table. It was number 377, out of 1000 that the government had converted from cap & ball to the .38 Colt cal. instead of .38 rim fire. It is a valuable collector's gun, but now will be on display for many to see. Take care.
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Post by Bullshop on Jan 25, 2020 9:42:09 GMT -7
Just a reminder Gary that your glass is not worthless you just need to present it to the right market.
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Post by missionary on Jan 25, 2020 14:17:03 GMT -7
At worse sell that collectors glass on E-bay ! My in-laws used to have a glass store in Danville, ILLinois. Some of those pieces were big bucks!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Jan 27, 2020 22:55:07 GMT -7
Daniel, the book is on the way. I mailed it today. Hope you enjoy it, & learn how to shoot like Ed did. If you do, I'll come out just to watch you.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 4, 2020 12:50:35 GMT -7
Gary the Ed McGivern book arrived. Thank you very much! I know I am going to enjoy reading this !
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 4, 2020 22:14:14 GMT -7
I'm still looking for Elmer's book. It got packed away when we did some remodeling a few years ago. It has to be in one of the plastic tote tubs in the garage. Enjoy reading Ed's book, I did. I have so many Civil War & western history books, that I don't know what to do with them. The younger generation don't want to hold a book, when they can read their Tablet or Kindle. I'm old fashioned, I like the book. Another good one was "Blood on the Moon", about Tom Horn, who was hanged in Cheyenne in Nov. 1903, for killing Willie Nickell. Another one, a paperback, "The Bassett Women" Josie & her sister "Queen" Ann at Brown's Hole in Colorado and Utah, during the cattle wars days. If I sent you all of my good books to read, you wouldn't have time to work.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 5, 2020 8:20:36 GMT -7
But I have the war department convinced that shooting and reading (education) on subject related matters is work.
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Post by Junior on Feb 10, 2020 2:19:01 GMT -7
I've used that method to shoot pistols before out to pretty fair distances. I also am very fond of leaning against a back rest and putting the gun between his knees like he did.
I wish old gun books were easier to find then they are. There is lots of the old stuff I would love to get my hands on.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 10, 2020 8:28:59 GMT -7
Jr. check with Mat Andreasen to see if he still has the book ""Fitz"" that I gave him when we left AK. Its about a Mr. Fitzgerald that was the S&W rep for all the old Camp Perry matches in the early years. He taught defensive handgun shooting and hand to hand defensive skills for the FBI. He was also a mentor to Elmer Keith. It is a great book that I learned a lot from about controlling thumb pressure on a fixed sighted revolver frame to control windage POI. It was a re-print from a 1930's original done by Wolf publishing sometime in the 90's.
He told of many S&W revolvers that were returned to factory because they did not shoot to center by the owner. In testing they shot to center for him so he instructed to owner in thumb pressure which always corrected the problem.
Another very interesting part of the book had a picture of several members of a police department that had shot a human silhouette target at 600 yards shooting one handed with 38 spl service revolvers and all shooters put all 6 shots in the cylinder on the target. That is some awesome shooting and proof that the B.G.'s of the 30's didn't want to get into a shootout with the flatfoots.
The Famous border patrol recruiter Bill Jordan in exhibition could draw his S&W 66 and in a fraction of a second hit an aspirin tabled at 15 feet. That is a target the size of a button on a shirt so Mr. Jordan could unbutton a B. G.'s shirt in the blink of an eye. That's tough on a cold day!
His was another book put out by Wolf publishing, Bill Jordan's "" No Second Place Winners"" Wish we still had guys like Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton, and Charlie Askins on border patrol. It would be a much different situation at the border than what we have now!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 10, 2020 13:57:46 GMT -7
Daniel, now, because I'm looking for Elmer's book, I have our spare room in total dis array, with boxes of my "stuff" now out in the living room. The good side is that I'm finding things, like my high school graduating class picture, & a box of old family letters from my grandmother's house, from waaaay back. Now to get this room organized again, then go to the garage & start looking in boxes of books for yours. I'll keep looking for it. P.S., I used to subscribe to Guns & Ammo, & Shooting Times magazines, specifically to read Skeeter Skelton's & Elmer Keith's stories. Col. Charles Askins & Bill Jordan's articles were more technical than Skeeter's. This weekend, our family got together in Cleveland for our "Christmas" get together. My youngest sister gave me a good book about James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickock. I've read many stories of his exploits, but never had a book dedicated to him. On my trip to Forsyth, MT in 2018, I went to visit his grave in Deadwood. His shooting of Dave Tutt in the town center of Springfield, MO, with a .36 Colt, at a little less than 100 yds., & hitting him in the heart, has to almost rank with Billy Dixon's shot.
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Post by Junior on Feb 10, 2020 15:07:09 GMT -7
Matt moved out of town unfortunately. I wish I had read more of that pile of books when I was a kid, but they didnt intrest me as much at the time.
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Post by 4given on Apr 23, 2020 15:38:49 GMT -7
I describe the guns zero sight picture as a can on a fence and by that I mean the top of the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight and the aiming point appears to be setting on the top of the front sight blade, like a can on a fence. Now just imagine looking at a four strand fence with a can as the target sitting atop a fence post. Your zero range will have the front sight level with the rear with no fence post showing and with only the can showing atop the front sight. Now imagine each strand of wire of the fence is the top of the rear sight lowered enough to correspond to some longer range. This is the way I was taught so the front sight picture is always the same like a can on a fence and for progressively longer ranges the rear sight is lowered for longer ranges just like the wires of the fence . That is how my Dad taught me back in the early 60's. He called that sight picture "pumpkin on a post". That is what I call it to this day and how I describe to my children, grandkids and anyone else I am teaching to shoot. |
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 23, 2020 16:51:10 GMT -7
It is amazing how accurately you can drop bullets on distant targets 400, 500, 600 yards distant once you figure out which wire to line the rear sight with. Its also a whole lot of fun to effectively engage targets with a handgun that your companions deem way out of range.
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Post by missionary on Apr 24, 2020 5:40:50 GMT -7
Now we need to figure out how to carry along a section of barb wire fence..
But that is one of the better analogies on how to do it...………
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Post by 450fuller on Sept 30, 2020 4:02:03 GMT -7
First rate. I have a signed copy of Bill Jordan's "No second Place Winner".
Now that we are in challenging times, its good to remember graduating
from the US Border Patrol Academy at Los Fresnos, TX. in 1975.
Mc Givern's book is also well-written-like all of Keith's books.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Sept 20, 2023 13:34:18 GMT -7
Daniel, a short while ago, I found Elmer Keith's book, "Sixguns", packed away in the garage. I called Tina, & I thought that she told me that you already have it. If you don't, let me know, & I'll get it in the mail. You said before that you feel that you would owe me something. OK, send me the "Trxas" Sharps, & we'll call it square.  . P.S., Yesterday, I won an online bid for an "Like New" Uberti 1860 Army Colt, & western holster, for $200 plus tax & shipping, which will total out between $250-275. I now have a Uberti 1847 "Walker", an 1848 3rd Model Dragoon, an 1851 London, .36 Navy, the 1860 Army .44, a Cattleman 7 1/2" barrel .45 LC, & a Cimarron .357 Mag., 7 1/2" barrel, all made by Uberti. Time to get the charcoal out. |
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 22, 2023 18:55:33 GMT -7
Gary I do not have that Elmer Keith book but I would like to. I domt know why Tina would think that I have it. I guess she was confused. If you dont mind I would like to hand onto the Texas Sharps for a while longer.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Sept 22, 2023 21:25:42 GMT -7
OK, I didn't think that you would want to send it into civilized territory.. I will get the book in the mail next week. I've been re reading some of the chapters again. It is very interesting...again.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 23, 2023 16:16:12 GMT -7
I acquired Elmers Sixguns when I was up in Alaska. I don’t quite remember how I got it, I imagine it must have been a gun show I can’t imagine anyone else having it in stock. I remember it being an oversized book with a green leather binding. I went through my share of big bore revolvers because of that book and it’s teachings. I always had a Smith model 29 of some flavor while I was up there, then I graduated to a 500 Linebaugh. It was a beautiful handgun, if I remember correctly it started life as a Ruger Bodley and had been converted to a 5 shot 500 Linebaugh by Hamilton Bowen. Our fearless leader here on the forum can confirm or deny whether I’m correct or not. Finally I was able to acquire a freedom arms model 83 field grade in 454 Casul with a 6 inch barrel. I really enjoyed those two big bore pistols but they also showed me that for my purposes day in day out a 44mag was plenty gun for me.
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Post by todddoyka on Sept 24, 2023 9:10:47 GMT -7
in the '90s, i wanted a Ruger SBH in 500 Linebaugh. in 2012, i almost had the money to buy Linebaugh revolver, but then i had a stroke. i finally bought a 500 Linebaugh in a 23" MGM heavy factory barrel in TC Encore.
i think 500L the caliber that i haven't bloodied yet.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Sept 24, 2023 9:12:37 GMT -7
Hello. My copy of "SIXGUNS" was copyrighted in 1955 & 1961, & has a black cover, with the spine being grey. The dust cover is red, white & black, & has 335 pages. I don't remember when I bought it, but I've had it a long time, as it has been packed away (by mistake) for well over 20 years.
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Post by grasshopper on Sept 24, 2023 20:04:50 GMT -7
Sounds like you may have a first addition Gary, my copy didn’t have a dust cover when I got it anyway. Elmer for sure had some very specific ideas when it came to big bore sixguns. He also left us with a classic bullet in the form of a Keith 240gr I imagine it would be a close race as to which bullet I’ve fired the most from a handgun. It would be between the Keith 240gr in 44 mag or special and the 230gr round nose in 45acp. Perhaps some of you good forum members can persuade our fearless leader Daniel about a man he worked for pretty early in his move to the west. If I remember correctly this gentleman operated a good size hunting service and would guide folks in the spring and fall. I remember Dan telling me stories about this fellow and Elmer being really good friends and I believe he also had a 4” pre model 29 N frame like Elmer. Hopefully he will fill in some of the huge gaps I left! Just goes to show you, especially out west you never know who you will end up meeting!
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Post by shootist---Gary on Sept 25, 2023 11:08:27 GMT -7
I think Daniel told the story on here, about that fellow having 1 of the first 2 S & W .44 Mags.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Sept 25, 2023 11:11:30 GMT -7
"SIXGUNS" is on the way to Dell, MT, with expected arrival on Tuesday, Oct. 3. Tracking #: 9549 0145 0041 3268 2712 70
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Post by Bullshop on Sept 26, 2023 6:14:47 GMT -7
Thank you Gary. Your right I did tell that story here on the forum but when I have time hope to tell it again. The mans name was Erve Malnorich . The gun he showed me was one of the first two 44 mag S&W tool room revolvers that were totally void of any markings. I will try to expand on both sometime soon.
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Post by missionary on Sept 27, 2023 6:14:19 GMT -7
Well while we are taking (written) about arms "void of markings", anyone read or heard of 1886 Winchester lever rifles having "x" numbers (single digit like X-6 or X9 ) applied where the regular serial goes ?
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. P.S., Yesterday, I won an online bid for an "Like New" Uberti 1860 Army Colt, & western holster, for $200 plus tax & shipping, which will total out between $250-275. I now have a Uberti 1847 "Walker", an 1848 3rd Model Dragoon, an 1851 London, .36 Navy, the 1860 Army .44, a Cattleman 7 1/2" barrel .45 LC, & a Cimarron .357 Mag., 7 1/2" barrel, all made by Uberti. Time to get the charcoal out.