Post by Bullshop on Feb 14, 2017 16:51:17 GMT -7
Hello ya'll, It's looking like I'm going to own a 450 Marlin M model and I'm not at all familiar with this round or the successful loading of it. There, I said it all! What I'm asking you for is what in the lighter weight boolits do you suggest and what powder and what brand of dies? Thank you in advance for your thoughtful reply. Regards, Jim
Mr. Jim, Sir
I am flattered that you would ask my advice although I don’t know why you would. None the less I do have some knowledge of the cartridge and opinion of same. To be honest the 450 Marlin was not a new cartridge when it came to be but what is actually was is the factory introduction of an old wildcat called the 458 American or 458 x 2”. Marlin wanted to offer the factory equivalent of the hot hand loads folks were putting up for the Marlin 1895/336 in 45-70. They didn’t want to just load hot 45-70 ammo and market it with a warning not to be used in older weaker guns so they just legitimized the 458 American. In their factory trials they found a potential problem with this in that the short 458 American at 45 caliber could be chambered in any of the much longer Weatherby chambers regardless of caliber such as the 257WBY, 270 WBY, 7mm WBY ,300 WBY etc. As you might imagine this would create a very dangerous situation so to stick with the idea of a factory 450 American but avoid the potential danger they created a new case by increasing the length of the belt on the standard belted magnum case. To my knowledge the 450 Marlin is still the only factory chambering using this case and what that means is if you get one buy a bunch of brass because when sales drop off the case will be discontinued. It never became as popular as they had hoped because hand loader shooting the Marlin 45-70 knew they already had the performance Marlin was offering so felt no need to trade in their 45-70’s for the new 450 Marlin.
Now the physics dictate that in a launch platform with the same length restrictions and pressure limits of the same caliber and barrel twist rate and a case with the same internal volume the ballistics for each cartridge will be the same and that is exactly true. When either is loaded to the same safe pressure which for the Marlin model 336 which the model 1895 and model 450 are is about 40,000 psi both the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin are ballistic twins. Never mind the hype the physics can not be denied.
Now with that said and understood what I suggest you do is search for 45-70 load data from group 2/3 loads. By group 2/3 loads I mean the higher pressure loads. If you look at most modern load manuals they treat the 45-70 as if it were three different cartridges and divide it into three groups.
Group 1 --- trapdoor Springfields and all original guns and replica guns of same the were in production when the 45-70 was loaded with black powder and pressures were not more than 20,000 psi
Group 2 --- Original 1895 Marlins , 1885 and 1886 Winchesters and replicas there of
Group 3 --- Modern Marlin model 1895/336
Super group 3 – Ruger #1, Browning 1885 and Siamese Mauser conversions
For lighter bullet weights we have a 325gn in both gas check design and plain base design. For top end loads use the gas check version and for reduced load of not more than 1500 fps velocity the PB version is good.
Optimum powder burn rate for this type of big bore straight wall case is IMR or Hodgdon 4198. My hunting load in a Marlin 45-70 loaded with 4198 and the 325 gn gas checked bullet does 2150 fps and has worked a charm for a moose load.
I could rant on but this I have covered your questions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ got this from the customer as a response ~~~~~~~~~~
Hello
I really appreciate this detailed information. I haven't bought much from you but I have bought before plus I have spent a fair amount of time at your website looking for honest to God facts rather than browsing forums what I suspect is a lot of "guru" BS! THIS is why I sought out advice from you guys, ok?
Now, I'm just an older gent that doesn't get in NEAR enough hunting or shooting, I'm not a great shot and my trifocals really make shooting sorta challenging but shoot I will until I can't any more. I need another rifle like the proverbial hole in my head but in the last couple years I have gotten back to lever action rifles and have an opportunity to barter my way into owning either a 450 Marlin or a 45-70 Marlin thus your advice about future case availability is greatly appreciated.
OK, 'nuff said. Now that I know either old bone buster uses the same boolits I'm going to order a box of those 325gn gas checked lubed for smokeless powder.
Thanks and all of you have a great day.
Hello
I really appreciate this detailed information. I haven't bought much from you but I have bought before plus I have spent a fair amount of time at your website looking for honest to God facts rather than browsing forums what I suspect is a lot of "guru" BS! THIS is why I sought out advice from you guys, ok?
Now, I'm just an older gent that doesn't get in NEAR enough hunting or shooting, I'm not a great shot and my trifocals really make shooting sorta challenging but shoot I will until I can't any more. I need another rifle like the proverbial hole in my head but in the last couple years I have gotten back to lever action rifles and have an opportunity to barter my way into owning either a 450 Marlin or a 45-70 Marlin thus your advice about future case availability is greatly appreciated.
OK, 'nuff said. Now that I know either old bone buster uses the same boolits I'm going to order a box of those 325gn gas checked lubed for smokeless powder.
Thanks and all of you have a great day.
Mr. Jim, Sir
I am flattered that you would ask my advice although I don’t know why you would. None the less I do have some knowledge of the cartridge and opinion of same. To be honest the 450 Marlin was not a new cartridge when it came to be but what is actually was is the factory introduction of an old wildcat called the 458 American or 458 x 2”. Marlin wanted to offer the factory equivalent of the hot hand loads folks were putting up for the Marlin 1895/336 in 45-70. They didn’t want to just load hot 45-70 ammo and market it with a warning not to be used in older weaker guns so they just legitimized the 458 American. In their factory trials they found a potential problem with this in that the short 458 American at 45 caliber could be chambered in any of the much longer Weatherby chambers regardless of caliber such as the 257WBY, 270 WBY, 7mm WBY ,300 WBY etc. As you might imagine this would create a very dangerous situation so to stick with the idea of a factory 450 American but avoid the potential danger they created a new case by increasing the length of the belt on the standard belted magnum case. To my knowledge the 450 Marlin is still the only factory chambering using this case and what that means is if you get one buy a bunch of brass because when sales drop off the case will be discontinued. It never became as popular as they had hoped because hand loader shooting the Marlin 45-70 knew they already had the performance Marlin was offering so felt no need to trade in their 45-70’s for the new 450 Marlin.
Now the physics dictate that in a launch platform with the same length restrictions and pressure limits of the same caliber and barrel twist rate and a case with the same internal volume the ballistics for each cartridge will be the same and that is exactly true. When either is loaded to the same safe pressure which for the Marlin model 336 which the model 1895 and model 450 are is about 40,000 psi both the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin are ballistic twins. Never mind the hype the physics can not be denied.
Now with that said and understood what I suggest you do is search for 45-70 load data from group 2/3 loads. By group 2/3 loads I mean the higher pressure loads. If you look at most modern load manuals they treat the 45-70 as if it were three different cartridges and divide it into three groups.
Group 1 --- trapdoor Springfields and all original guns and replica guns of same the were in production when the 45-70 was loaded with black powder and pressures were not more than 20,000 psi
Group 2 --- Original 1895 Marlins , 1885 and 1886 Winchesters and replicas there of
Group 3 --- Modern Marlin model 1895/336
Super group 3 – Ruger #1, Browning 1885 and Siamese Mauser conversions
For lighter bullet weights we have a 325gn in both gas check design and plain base design. For top end loads use the gas check version and for reduced load of not more than 1500 fps velocity the PB version is good.
Optimum powder burn rate for this type of big bore straight wall case is IMR or Hodgdon 4198. My hunting load in a Marlin 45-70 loaded with 4198 and the 325 gn gas checked bullet does 2150 fps and has worked a charm for a moose load.
I could rant on but this I have covered your questions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ got this from the customer as a response ~~~~~~~~~~
Hello
I really appreciate this detailed information. I haven't bought much from you but I have bought before plus I have spent a fair amount of time at your website looking for honest to God facts rather than browsing forums what I suspect is a lot of "guru" BS! THIS is why I sought out advice from you guys, ok?
Now, I'm just an older gent that doesn't get in NEAR enough hunting or shooting, I'm not a great shot and my trifocals really make shooting sorta challenging but shoot I will until I can't any more. I need another rifle like the proverbial hole in my head but in the last couple years I have gotten back to lever action rifles and have an opportunity to barter my way into owning either a 450 Marlin or a 45-70 Marlin thus your advice about future case availability is greatly appreciated.
OK, 'nuff said. Now that I know either old bone buster uses the same boolits I'm going to order a box of those 325gn gas checked lubed for smokeless powder.
Thanks and all of you have a great day.
Hello
I really appreciate this detailed information. I haven't bought much from you but I have bought before plus I have spent a fair amount of time at your website looking for honest to God facts rather than browsing forums what I suspect is a lot of "guru" BS! THIS is why I sought out advice from you guys, ok?
Now, I'm just an older gent that doesn't get in NEAR enough hunting or shooting, I'm not a great shot and my trifocals really make shooting sorta challenging but shoot I will until I can't any more. I need another rifle like the proverbial hole in my head but in the last couple years I have gotten back to lever action rifles and have an opportunity to barter my way into owning either a 450 Marlin or a 45-70 Marlin thus your advice about future case availability is greatly appreciated.
OK, 'nuff said. Now that I know either old bone buster uses the same boolits I'm going to order a box of those 325gn gas checked lubed for smokeless powder.
Thanks and all of you have a great day.