|
Post by Junior on Dec 2, 2015 19:30:30 GMT -7
I'm reading a older book Published in 1981 I believe on shooting for self defense. In the book the guy states over and over that the best bullet for personal defense is a soft lead SWC design, preferably 200-250 grains traveling at 850-1000 FPS. A lot different then what everyone thinks the need these days.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 3, 2015 7:25:00 GMT -7
You have fired an arrow through my heart pointing out that 1981 is old. Before I had grey in my hair the accepted self defense load was put up in 38 special cases and used a 158gn hollow base wad cutter inverted with the hollow base forward known I believe as the FBI load. Here is an interesting observation of self defense cartridges going full circle. The 38/40 and the 40 S&W use the same bullet diameter, weight, and often shape at the same velocity but are separated in their development by more than a century of time.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 3, 2015 8:11:20 GMT -7
Anything older then me is considered old.
It is pretty interesting to look at how things have gone full circle. The high dollar self defense ammo these days is loaded with TC style bullets. And the 45 ACP is really making a comeback.
|
|
urny
Bullet Head
Posts: 39
|
Post by urny on Dec 3, 2015 8:36:30 GMT -7
Back in the sixties we called that load that would become known as the FBI load "cookie cutter". They allegedly worked spiffy fine if nothing needed penetrating before flesh was reached. An almost full caliber hollow point is impressive to look at, and makes pink mist of jack rabbits.
Interesting that .45 ACP is making a comeback. It never went away around my place.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 3, 2015 9:16:25 GMT -7
I've loaded the old 30 cal military FMJ bullets upside down and they are quite a impressive round as well.
From what I've heard in a lot of the country the 9mm dominated for a long time, and 45 kind of went down hill, but now the 45 is coming back up and 9mm is gong down hill. I find more 45 brass then any other caliber at the ranges where I scrounge.
|
|
|
Post by cz93x62 on Dec 3, 2015 13:16:06 GMT -7
Gotta love The Caliber Wars. A bizarre alloy of physics--dissatisfaction--compromise--and wishful thinking that gets about 50 times the attention it deserves. The Usual Suspects in this defensive handgun lineup--38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have ALL been successfully deployed as defensive calibers for a lot of years--WHEN THEIR BULLETS ARE PROJECTED PROPERLY. Caliber will not compensate for poor placement, and bullets into the background are the proverbial (and actual) "sound and fury signifying nothing". Installing bullets into unintended targets has consequences, too--though they seldom get much bandwidth.......they will get newsprint, though. Bad juju.
The conversation needs to dwell on skill development--preservation--and upkeep. There is no way around it--shooting skill is a highly perishable commodity, and regular practice is a necessity if you choose to go armed in public--whether as a citizen CCW or law officer. Using firearms as bullet hoses is irresponsible and reckless. A system and its caliber must be chosen carefully, balancing the need to project sufficient power to stop threats with the user's ability to control the arm during the firing sequence. These calibers over the years have formed a "consensus" of sorts, one that achieves this "balance" relative to the respective individual deploying the arm and ammunition. Spend your time selecting the system and load that gives you--quite literally--the best bang for your buck, develop duplicator practice loads for the carried arm(s), and make some holes in paper with regularity. It is good for both you and for the sidearm.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 3, 2015 13:54:49 GMT -7
cz93x62 Good advice that!
Sorry to have to confess of being trapped of sorts in a simpler time when it comes to mind flirtations of bygone defensive rounds as mentioned earlier in the 38/40. Truth is when real cowboys were the law in a lawless land the 38/40, 44/40, and the ever so capable 45 Colt were all the peace keepers of their time. I remember reading a comical report of a Philippine Moro warrior in hot pursuit of a US trooper whirling khris in hand making for a humorous spectacle for the troopers comrade. When the comrade got beyond his laughing he neatly placed a 250gn slug from his service peace maker in one shoulder and out the other of his mates adversary crunching no small amount of bone on its passage. A capable round indeed! Still I laugh when I consider that the 40 S&W seems to be the panicle of defensive cartridge development compromising extremes from both too much and too little from past developments. When I consider the ballistic similarities between the two cartridges 38/40 and 40 S&W and over a century of elapsed time between development of each I can do nothing but shake my head in wonderment at the elements that control the collective direction of the consensus of the masses. As I age I find more and more solace in being a loner not being the least bit concerned what others think is ""THE ONE"".
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 3, 2015 14:53:21 GMT -7
My go to load for my every day carry is a 260gn JHP that was swaged my BTsniper off the other place and over a good charge of bluedot. This produces about 830 FPS, and that is more then enough for a 1911.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 3, 2015 15:02:38 GMT -7
I bet you will never gat an argument from anyone on the receiving end. I think the original service load for the 45 Colt was 40gn black powder and a 250gn bullet for something between 800 and 900 fps so ball park with your acp load. Even stopped by protective gear the punch would be enough to dissuade most.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 3, 2015 15:23:17 GMT -7
The only thing I ever shot with it was about a 300 lb sow that charged me while I was down in texas. It did the job, and she piled up before she ran me over, but now by far.
|
|
|
Post by cz93x62 on Dec 3, 2015 17:45:23 GMT -7
There isn't much that is "new" under the sun. The 40 S&W does a great cover of the 38-40, and the 10mm is just the 38-40 WCF in 1880s mode from a '73 Winchester ballistically. I recall from the early 1970s in which Guns & Ammo ragazine assembled 38-40 bullets (180 grain JSPs) into cut-off 224 Weatherby brass to create "The 40 G&A Magnum". This gave Norma 10mm-like performance. about 1300 FPS. Not long afterward, somebody cut off 30 Remington cases and installed 38-40 bullets.......and we had the 10mm Auto. Now we have the 40 Short & Weak, a shortened 10mm case with small pistol primer pocket, and it is pronounced as being Jetsons-modern. MEGO. It is a good round, and in terms of numbers it has surpassed the 45 ACP in popularity at my old shop. It is here to stay, I'm sure--but its performance has been with us since about 1882 from the blackpowder 38-40.
I used to envy Anaheim PD and their authorization of the S&W Model 25-5 in 45 Colt for service usage. The 45 Colt is a kick-azz service round, and no slouch in the game fields either.
|
|
|
Post by 1oldgentagain on Dec 3, 2015 18:46:48 GMT -7
cz9.3: My Next to latest rrevolver acq. was a S&W 25-6 ,45 LC, 4".. Yet to be outside,but ,the first non-w'end day with temp above 32 d.F. that will change..98% gun,but for aftermarket front sight and stocks..Then 2 wk's later had a chance to acquire yet another DW 445 supermag..this one 8" with attached Leupold pistol scope..This will be my first effort with scoped revolver..but have used scopes on T/C Super Contender 223, and 15 " Encore Pistol in 30/06...Someone already thought more highly of the encore than I did....1oldgentagain
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 3, 2015 20:55:09 GMT -7
OK OK if I have to pick an ultra modern round for self defense in my wheel gun it will be the 357 mag. At least in my old Funk & Wagnall's by Phill Sharp it says the 357 is ultra modern and the most powerful round a man can conceivably control in a hand gun. Good enough for Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan and good enough for me. Truth be told no matter what you have if you go against someone like Bill Jordan he could be wielding a cork gun and still win the fight. In exhibition he could draw his S&W mod 66 in a couple hundredths of a second and hit an aspirin at five steps. That type of shooting makes for a one shot gun fight and it don't much matter what the cartridge is. Someone like Bill Munden with a Colt single action could give anyone with a bottom feeder a really bad day. These were some exceptional gun handlers along with not too many others from our history that had phenomenal ability.
|
|
|
Post by cz93x62 on Dec 3, 2015 21:33:10 GMT -7
The 357 Magnum is BY FAR my favorite sidearm caliber. I have 3 of these at present, and had my old shop adopted the 357 Mag at the same time we brought on the 45 ACP and 9mm (1987), I likely would have changed ammo (from 38 Special) instead of changing platforms. We brought on the 40 S&W and 357 Magnum c. 1992, and I bought a S&W 686 x 4" about that same time that I still carry as back-country felon repellent.
|
|
urny
Bullet Head
Posts: 39
|
Post by urny on Dec 4, 2015 8:41:42 GMT -7
Did I see that S&W 25-6 at Filer? Fine design in an equally fine caliber and in great shape; looked about new to me. There's always a but, and in this case the but is that strange backward cylinder rotation. Wonder why they do that.
|
|
urny
Bullet Head
Posts: 39
|
Post by urny on Dec 4, 2015 8:49:32 GMT -7
The US Army issued me my first defensive handgun in 1965, and I suspect you all know both the caliber and model. Never been able to get over that, so it's still that platform for me, though now days in the Commander model.
If not for that experience cz93x64's choice of the .357 Magnum would probably be my choice as well. Fred Sadowski of 300 Gunsmithing in Denver built a fine custom Model 19 4" that I bought from a Boulder City officer named Kirby in 1975 that should have stayed in my possession, but when time came to leave Colorado, I put it in the paper and sold it before sundown. Couldn't get used to the cylinder rotation.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 4, 2015 10:16:32 GMT -7
I love my 1911. Only thing I really want to change on it at this point is the safety.
|
|
|
Post by cz93x62 on Dec 6, 2015 3:18:00 GMT -7
The 357 Magnum may be my first love, but there is considerable affection for the 45 ACP as well. My old shop can't make its mind up about the 1911A1, a process under way for a couple years now. Until the shotcallers make a firm YES or NO, my City Gun remains the SIG P-220.......a Commander-sized pistol with what Col. Jeff Cooper described as an ingenious answer in search of a problem to address......its double-action trigger.
There is a Series 80 Gold Cup in the safe that I enjoy shooting a great deal, though I think a Commander platform would be more useful for general carry and shooting. It is funny how I gravitate toward certain features packages in my handguns.......the safe contains 4 double-action autopistols of Commander motif spanning 9mm to 45 ACP, and 5 double-action roller-pistols from 32-20 to 44 Magnum with 5" to 5.5" barrels. One each 4" barreled 357 and 44 Magnum round out the eclectic accumulation.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 6, 2015 7:50:45 GMT -7
I am kind of embarrassed! My entire hand gun collection consists of two Ruger Bisleys and two Ruger singles six revolvers. The Bisleys are 45 Colt/45acp and 357 mag and the single sixes are 32 mag and 22 ccm.
Now BS Mom is a double action gal having under her rule three lovely J frame S&W revolvers, two in stainless and one blued. The twin 4" barrel stainless guns are in 22lr and 32 mag while the blued 2" is in 32 S&W long. Living rural we have little threat of home intrusion so feel comfortable with any of these. When on the rare occasion I have to go to town I usually have my single six 32 holstered in open carry. Town being Dillon and not much of a town by most standards. Still I am of the belief that we are at war with a certain faith not by our choosing but theirs and we should always be mentally and physically prepared for engagement although for them to look for trouble u in rural cow country would likely not turn out well for them. Not much of an objective here for targeting
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 6, 2015 9:16:13 GMT -7
I've only got the 2 Handguns right now, my single six 32 Mag, and the Remington 1911.
|
|
|
Post by cz93x62 on Dec 6, 2015 11:23:40 GMT -7
2 things to keep in mind when discussing your safe's contents.......1) you can only shoot one arm at a time effectively and 2) I have been an active firearms hobbyist for 45+ years. Things accumulate over a span of years that wide. Rome wasn't built in a day.
That "other faith" and the death cult that rises out of same hit home quite literally on Wednesday. Marie and her girls lived at that same townhouse in Redlands--the bomb factory's exact address--before she and I got together. It is about a mile from where we live now. The first shooting site is about 5 miles from our house, the engagement site where the terrs met finality is about 3 miles away. Sobering, and I don't imbibe.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 6, 2015 13:04:30 GMT -7
WOW!!! Way too close to home! The political correctness that has led us here and still continues to lead us down a dangerous path just boggles my mind. My mind just can not comprehend the ideology of helping a confessed enemy to destroy me.
|
|
|
Post by patmarlin on Dec 6, 2015 19:20:49 GMT -7
Well I watched a CNN terror episode on Mumbia, and others and it showed footage of the shooters. Young kids living in the area, being called on command to attack by cel phone. They hacked and recorded the phone calls. The director tells them what to do, and for their mission to be complete, they must be killed.
The are fully willing, with "god willing" comments, hoping they will be killed after the attack. Those people are here now, ready to kill us on command.
People had plenty of time to fire back while they reloaded, but of course no one was armed.
I'm thinking about getting my CCW, so if in that situation, I can fire back. I seriously feel I would have the frame of mind to take a clear shot. I think that's our only defense here in America.
So what do we carry? I don't have the much experience with my 1911, but that can change real soon. I'm surgical with my revolvers in 45 colt and 357 mag, but then we just have 6 rounds. Got an auto in 357 Sig, and I've never been able to shoot real accurate with that thing. Never liked the feel of it.
I think it's just going to be mandatory, that we protect are own. The SOB's are Kamikazes hell bent on killing us. But we can take them out.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 6, 2015 20:27:56 GMT -7
I put in my application for my CWP last week, so can hopefully pick it up first of the year. I pack my 1911 right now (when the stupid thing is not broken) everyday when I am not at work (not allowed to). when I get to work, it gets locked in my locker at work, and when I leave it goes back in the holster on my belt. I am allowed to open carry here, and i prefer to, but it is frowned upon and there are a few places in Montana where I am not allowed to.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 6, 2015 20:54:02 GMT -7
Remember what Allen said " no bullet hoses" Deliberate aimed fire and six shots should get you through. Just follow the front sight and squeeze.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 6, 2015 20:58:07 GMT -7
I'm not much Into spray and pray. Ammo takes to long to load on my single stage press. With the 45 I can hit a man sized target at 5 yards 7 out of 7 in the kill zone. I can do quite a bit better with my single six, shoot same sized groups at 120 yards but have to hold quite a bit high.
|
|
|
Post by FromTheWoods on Jan 31, 2017 1:32:22 GMT -7
This is an "old" thread, but when a book is called "older" being from waaaaaay back in '81, this old geezer feels there might still be time to squeeze in a comment about his "old" carry choice. --1981 is OLD!? If I didn't have guns to clean, I just might have taken a closer look at letting someone push me into my grave. Just old and in the way here, Boss.
I'm pert nigh in the popular group now--my carry gun for the last 15+ years has been a Ruger Buckeye Convertible .38-40/10mm. Always of course, the .38-40 cylinder rides in it. --Now where did I set my specs? What, Ma! You say you hid my walker? Eh? What! Beside my teeth? What's that you say?! You don't have to yell! What! What! I don't know how to turn on those danged ear-aids! What! Come in there!? Now how am I sposed to do that? What's that?! Where's my walker?--How the heck do I know; you're the one who hid it! Eh?! What! What! You say your sister 's comin'!!
(I guess I am getting old. Planning this month to get checked for hearing aids, and I need new glasses too.)
|
|
|
Post by patmarlin on Jan 31, 2017 7:07:45 GMT -7
THis thread was years ago. He's not young any more. He's on his old geezer way too now… :-]
Bet he hasn't washed that truck yet neither, huh Jr…lol
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Feb 4, 2017 13:27:03 GMT -7
Some things like wine, good cartridge and those that are wise enough to appreciate them just get better with age. Now all I hear about is the 300 BO and how it has the same performance as a 30-30. PA-LEASE! give me the 30-30!
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Feb 5, 2017 12:04:17 GMT -7
Greetings Old or not I was thrilled to be issued a 1911 45ACP while in the US Army. Had an old rattle trap Colt at FT Hood then a better one in Germany. I was sold then on big heavy fat bullets chugging along and still am. Mike in Peru
|
|