mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 7, 2016 12:37:55 GMT -7
How many of us here use paper patched bullets? I've used paper patched bullets with certain success in the .50/90 Sharps, getting a black bear, and in the .45/70 or .45/75 Sharps, tagging a nice mule deer at about 150 yards in Colorado and my biggest black bear in British Columbia. Those were all several years ago but I'm still paper patching. Now it is mostly with the Sharps rifles in .44/77 and in .50/70. As mentioned in another thread, I also have the mold to make paper patched bullets for my .40/70 SS but those haven't been given any real good try as yet.
If you do use paper patched bullets, what do you favor, the tapered or straight sided bullets? Shoot sharp, Mike
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 12:56:26 GMT -7
I've read of a couple different types of paper folks are using, what type/kind do you generally use?
Paper has it's own abrasive characteristics contributing to barrel wear. Your thoughts on that? Granted, most folks today aren't going to fire enough rounds to cause major wear of their barrel(s).
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 7, 2016 13:42:30 GMT -7
Hey Bear, You were just waiting to ask such things! The two weights or thicknesses of paper that I'm familiar with are the 9-pound (available from Buffalo Arms) and the 8-pound onion skin (available through art suppliers). For most of my shooting I favor the 9-pound, particularly in .50 caliber. I'll use the 9-pound with my .45s too but the .44s prefer the 8-pound paper. The choice of one paper or another is something I try to leave to my rifles to answer. If a rifle or cartridge doesn't like a particular weight of paper, it will quickly let you know.
In any caliber, one of the things I look for is number of shots I can fire without wiping out the chamber or the leade to the rifling. Often the paper patched bullets will become hard to chamber, or impossible to chamber, in a dirty or fired rifle. I want my loads to be useful for hunting so they need to be able to shoot or at least loaded several times without cleaning the gun. That is just one of the factors that makes me prefer tapered bullets.
The old factory loaded paper patched bullets were tapered, as far as I've determined. So using tapered bullets today is just another step in duplicating the loads of the Old West. And for the most part, we know that the great buffalo herds were harvested with paper patched bullets.
There are other factors that should go into the selection of a patching paper, certainly. Accuracy is foremost, of course, but that is dependent on several things which can include the bullet, the patching, the lube & how much lube, the powder, and the powder charge. All of those things must be in a good balance. I mentioned the loading of follow-up shots first because that is probably the first thing I look for. Those other factors can be played with or adjusted after getting a bullet with the patching needed for repeated shots.
Another factor that can immediately effect the chambering of following shots is simply the seating depth of the paper patch bullet in the cartridge case. As a simple rule, target shooters will seat their bullets further out than hunters will. That give the loads used by hunters the better chance of chambering easily in a dirty barrel.
On the target line or in competition the barrels are often wiped between shots, so repeated chamberings might not matter. As an example, the old Creedmoor loads from the International competition were loaded with no lube within the cartridge. Instead of relying on lube, those loads were loaded "dry" but the barrels were wiped after every shot.
Now that I've simply added to the confusion, let me say that the added abrasiveness of paper patched bullets has never bothered me. I simply won't live long enough to wear out one of today's rifle barrels. The older soft steel barrels can show wear and those are what we base our guesses about paper patch abrasion on. Let's remember, some of those rifles must have had 50,000 shots fired through them. Let's also remember that there are a lot of old rifles with worn barrels which never fired a paper patched bullet. So, I'm suggesting that paper patched bullets are not really as abrasive as sometimes said to be. At the very same time, I almost hope that paper patched bullets are somewhat more abrasive than our lubricated (greased) alloy bullets because I will enjoy breaking in a brand new barrel by making sure the very first shots it fires are with paper patched bullets. That is to speed up the breaking in time. No, I can't say if it works or not but I do like to think so.
Alright, let's fall back and start over if you like. Paper patching is a subject that is hard to cover in general comments. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 15:13:41 GMT -7
Well stated...! Thank you
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 8, 2016 18:25:35 GMT -7
I do some patching for BPC as well as smokeless high power. I have several types of PP molds including the unique design from Walt Melander using a full groove diameter ogive following a straight grooved shank at bore diameter that gets patched to groove diameter. For BPC I like patching to bore diameter with a tapered design but for high power smokeless loading in cartridges like 30-06 I like the NEI design patched to groove diameter. This design is easier on the patch entering the lead because it is engraving the bullet ogive before it engraves the patch. For BPC I like the tapered design patched to bore diameter because you can seat as much of the bullets length as you want fully into the barrel even breach seating ahead of the case. With breach seating there is no transition from chamber through the throat and lead and into the rifling as it already starts there. There is never a chance for misalignment or damaging the patch when the patched bullet begins its journey. I use several types of paper depending on what type of bullet I am using. For smokeless high power loading I use 100% cotton fiber resume paper. For BPC I use a couple different types of paper as well using 9 LB onion skin, tracing paper, and coffee filter paper again depending on what type of bullet being used and weather patching to bore or groove diameter. Trying to recall game taken with PP bullets I remember a caribou bull with 45-70, a bull moose with 50-90, a mulie buck with 50-90, and a sow grizzly with 45-70. That's about all that comes to mind on game taken with PP bullets. I have been doing a little shooting as of recent with my newly acquired Sharps 45-90 and am first getting a feel for it with greasers. Did a little shooting today with a 555 Paul Jones loaded with 21gn Alliant 410. This load is doing 1250 fps average MV. I pointed a few at an 850 yard target today trying to dial in some sight settings. With a setting of 5 points on the sight this load will zero at 200 yards. To get on at 850 yards required a setting of 98 points. I expect that when I switch to a PP of about equal weight and nose shape it will require a bit less elevation to get to 850 than it did with the PJ grooved design having several lube grooves and drive bands. I believe the smooth sided bullet has less atmospheric drag than a grooved bullet and when using bullets patched to bore diameter in 45 cal you are actually shooting a 44 cal bullet so there is even less drag. I did notice this same effect shooting a 45-70 TD at long range with both types of bullets grooved and patched. The load using the patched bullet of bore diameter using a .444" diameter bullet used substantially less elevation than the grooved bullet of similar weight and nose shape but using the same powder charge.
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 9, 2016 7:45:54 GMT -7
Let me get a deep breath and I'll reply... Shoot sharp, Mike
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 9, 2016 9:29:51 GMT -7
Alright, the varmints are fed now.
Dan, As you know, I suggested the design for those step-sided paper patch bullets to Walt Melander back when he was located in El Paso. The idea for those was to let the full diameter nose of the bullet protect the leading edge of the paper patch as it entered the rifling in chambers that did not have a gentle leade where the rifling begins. They were also made especially for the early Shiloh and C. Sharps Arms rifles that had throated chambers, such as my .50/90 Gemmer and the my early .45/70 with the half-round barrel from C. Sharps. In my opinion it works although, speaking frankly, I never did compare the performance of those bullets with more standard shaped paper patched slugs to actually evaluate an advantage. I guess I felt that if they worked, that was good enough.
I still use the 500 grain version in my .50/90, when I try to convince myself that I can still shoot with the open sights. (I've never brought myself to put a peep sight on that rifle.) Elmer Keith talked about using a triple-wrap patch on some of the bullets he used to use in his .44/90 and ever since trying it, I've used a triple-wrap patch on that .50 caliber bullet. The .45 caliber bullets of that style generally get a double-wrap patch and Walt made me a double cavity mold for the .45s where one cavity casts the 410 grain mold and the other casts a 500 grain version. The two bullets have different shaped noses so the loaded rounds are easily identified.
My best long shot on a deer was made with my .45, using .45/75 loads, in Colorado. I had left camp with the rifle and just five cartridges, all loaded with the 410 grain bullets. While going along the bottom of a logging setting, still filled with freshly cut timber, I saw a nice buck watching me from the top end of the setting. There was no way for me to sit for a shot because if I sat down I couldn't see the deer over those logs. So, I held for an offhand shot, holding high on the deer but not over it. My rifle was sighted for about 100 yards and this buck was out at least 150 or 160 yards. At my shot I saw the buck absorb the punch, then it rolled toward me and out of sight.
It took me several minutes to climb up to where the buck was. Instead of going around the setting, I just climbed up through it. That was so if the buck got up again I might see it. To go around would mean loosing sight of where the buck was laying. When I got to him, he tried to get up so I fired another shot at his neck. That was a miss. Another shot was fired at close range and that was also a miss. Then I knew something must be done because I was running out of ammo. So, I backed away far enough that the buck stopped thrashing and with care aim was successful in putting a shot through his neck. That ended my hunt.
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 9, 2016 9:42:14 GMT -7
To continue, the bullet fired from long range hit high, just like I had aimed it. That bullet through went over the heart and just clipped the bottom of the spine, which crippled the deer.
So much for my success story.
I do find it interesting that Shiloh used a 22 degree leade (or close to that) in their barrels for such a long time and rather recently they bragged about changing that to a 7 degree leade, claiming it is superior for paper patched bullets. On the other hand, C. Sharps Arms has quietly chambered their barrels with a 1/2-degree leade for years. That's what I use most of the time now, in my .44/77 and .44/90 rifles by C. Sharps Arms. And those are used with paper patch bullets that are closer copies of what Sharps and UMC used to load years ago.
My use of paper patched bullets has been rather restricted to loads with black powder. I know you, Dan, and a few others (like Paul Matthews) have tried paper patched bullets in smokeless loads. At one time I thought about trying paper patched slugs in my .303 Savage, mainly because Savage did offer a factory load for the .303 that used black powder and a paper patched bullet. That loading didn't last very long so we can assume it wasn't a tremendous success. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 9, 2016 15:28:52 GMT -7
I like the NEI PP design for use in lever action rifles because as you said the patch is protected. I seat it so you cant see any of the patch so the loaded round looks like a normal cast bullet load. That way they can cycle through the action without any damage to the patch but you cant apply any crimp when loaded this way. I do bump a little meplate on the nose when being used in a lever action. I shot a wounded grizzly with one of the 500gn 45 cal from my Marlin 45-70. My neighbor had wounded it and it ran into a wooded lot between our properties so it had to get ferreted out but the neighbor didn't have the heart for finishing the job he started. Having several small children I was not about to let that wounded bear have any chance at them so I finished the job the neighbor started. The bear was hole up in a perma frost spruce thicket that was so think you could barely wiggle in it. When I finally found the bear my shot was at maybe 15 feet as the bear was launching itself at me. The shot took the airborn bear under the chin and instantly put its lights out. Just of habit I instantly levered a second round and fired hitting a little higher and right of the first shot between head and shoulder. The load was doing 1550 fps MV with the 500gn NEI PP design. When skinning that bear I found both bullets under the hide on the rump fully expanded to nearly two bitt size. The alloy was BHN-8. That and one other experience with a real mad cow moose account for the two most exhilarating hunting experiences I have ever had and both were with that old Marlin I call Ol Boo. Boo because its a first year production when they started the serial number range with B zero zero.
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mike
Bullet Hole
Posts: 65
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Post by mike on Mar 9, 2016 16:28:10 GMT -7
None of my paper patch stories are as exciting as that. Probably just as well too... I do have a bear story but that we'll save for another thread.
Today I did some shooting with my .44/77 using a 470 grain paper patched bullet over 75 grains of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F powder. Five shots were fired through the rain and those scored a 49-2X out of a possible 50. The distance was only 50 yards but you've got to start somewhere. That pleased me enough that I took a picture of the target with the rifle and one cartridge just to show off. Yes, I guess I'll be loading more of those... This group was shot with no attention other than three breaths through a blow tube between shots. No bore wiping at all. I did find one paper ring stuck to the mouth of one of the empty cases but nothing interfered with chambering the cartridges as the shooting progressed. The sights were a deluxe mid-range peep on the back, as you can see, and the plain silver blade at the front. Those are still hunting sights for my eyes. Shoot sharp, Mike
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Post by Bullshop on Mar 9, 2016 17:01:27 GMT -7
I did a little shooting with my newly acquired Sharps 45-90 today too though not with PP, yet. The bullet is a 555gn Paul Jones Creedmoor design lubed with NASA and sized to .459" The load is 21gn Alliant #410 with the remainder of the case filled with Styrofoam packing popcorn. Once I got the range and wind dialed in I managed to shoot a 9" group at 500 yards so that is just under 2 moa at 500. I was testing not only the new to me rifle but have also been developing loads with this new to me powder as well as the PJ bullet design. The bullet is not new to me but I just have not used it yet. I chose it for this testing with smokeless powder because this bullet design takes up a lot of the case volume that is not needed for a 21gn charge of this fine grained powder. The wind was gusting between 7 and 10 mph from about 10:30 and required 6 minutes of windage to get on at 500. The target I made was not showing up all that well through the sights but I still managed to shoot under two moa. I will correct the target issue before the next outing. My sight settings are slowly coming together now having settings for 200, 300, 440, 500, and 850 yards. Once I fill in the rest of the blanks I will switch to a smooth PP of the same weight then shoot all over again and compare the results. I predict that the numbers for the PP will be smaller for both windage and elevation. Just how much will be interesting to see.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 1, 2016 18:20:21 GMT -7
Finally had a chance to cast some PP bullets for my Sharps. The design I used is a tapered cup base bullet that drops about .444" from the mold adjusted to about 500gn. This I patch with a 25% cotton 16lb paper 2 wraps and run through a .450" sizer die with lube presser so it leaves a barely visible lube film on the patch. The load I used was 23gn Alliant 410 with packing popcorn filler and a cci#250 mag rifle primer. No real serious effort just a few groups to see how it might act. Turns out that this load shot better so far than any greaser I have tried in this rifle. My target was already shot up and hard to find new bullet holes but what I could identify was looking good and getting awfully close to that magical 1 moa. Hard to say at this point just how consistent this load will be until I try more but I think its safe to assume that this rifle will shoot PP. Hopping for a short outing tomorrow to compare the ammo I have left loaded with the 550gn PJ greaser bullets to some ammo loaded with the aforementioned load with the 500gn PP.
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