|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 19, 2023 4:31:12 GMT -7
I’m not entirely sure why this topic popped up in my head but here it goes. Like the title says, what was in the past your most accurate rifle or is a current rifle in your inventory? I’ve been very lucky over the years to have several rifles that were extremely accurate so it was a little difficult to pick one I used to own and one I currently own.
The first rifle is one that I used to have, it was one of the Remington model 700 Senderos. This rifle was in 25-06 and even though I was in the infancy of my hand loading it was extremely accurate. If I remember correctly the best group I ever got out of that rifle was five shots all touching at 500 yards with the Nosler ballistic tip bullets. I’ve often wondered if I had kept that rifle as I learned more about hand loading if I could of gotten even better accuracy.
The rifle that I currently own that is by far the most accurate rifle I own is a Styer SSG69 in 308. I actually got this rifle in a trade at a show. The only thing not factory about it is the original 26” barrel has been cut back to 24”. The best group I’ve ever gotten out of this rifle is five shots all touching at 580 yards with Federal Premium 168gr boatail match ammo, the scope on the rifle is a first gen Leopold MK4.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 19, 2023 10:04:17 GMT -7
This one is impossible for me to say because there have been so many in the past many I likely wont immediately remember. Several that stand out in my memory were made by Savage and some by Remington. Those would have been in chamberings that are known for accuracy like the 222 Rem and 308 Win. I remember one Savage model 112-V in 222 that was just a hummer but there have been others that shot equally well so I will have to let rifles of the past remain un-declared.
As for rifles presently in possession I think the honors must go to an E. Arthor Brown model 97-D chambered for his 6mm bench rest magnum. Not surprisingly the 6mm BRM is simply a slightly stretched 219 Donaldson case necked to 6mm. The EAB model 97-D is a light weight compact action that is precision made and locks up like a bank vault with a mechanical snap to its closing. It has I believe without checking a 24" medium heavy barrel but is still light in over all weight. The stock trigger is absolute precision leaving nothing to be desired.
It has a 1/8" twist so should prefer heavier bullets for the caliber but it seems to not know that because it shoots light weight bullets equally as well as the heavy 100 grain bullets I most often shoot in it. The reason I shoot mostly heavy bullets is that most of my loads are geared to shooting coyotes and over the years in 6mm caliber the 100 grain bullet has become my first choice regardless of the cartridge. The 6mm BRM certainly has velocity limits when compared to other cartridges of the same caliber such as the 243 Win or 6mm Rem but what it lacks in velocity it makes up in accuracy. My best load pushed a Sierra 100 grain SBT to 2700 fps and so far has proven its worth on coyotes to 300 yards which is the longest shot so far taken with it on a coyote. No big gaping torn holes in the fur with that load just mostly round holes from nickel to quarter in size depending on the range.
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Dec 19, 2023 13:21:54 GMT -7
We have an Interarms Mark X Mauser in 06. Bought it in 82. That rifle will shoot! Has a hammer forged barrel that was well done ! 1-10 twist. Any jacket bullet I have tried from 125 to 220 grains will make clover leafs at 100 yards with numerous powders at numerous weights. Very easy to get a fast accurate load. This rifle will never leave our family. Has a 4-16x Scope on it.
With cast it likes 140 grains+. Once again with numerous powders and nose shapes from 140 to 245 grains it will print clover leafs at 100 yards. Our range only has 300 yards but will print 2.5 inches at 300 yards with little issue with jackets or just a little tweaking with cast. 2200 fps (WDWW) with a GC or PC'd and WDWW. Using WDWW GC and PC'd 2350 fps has been reached with 165 grains.
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 19, 2023 17:05:37 GMT -7
As that I am not & have never been, except for shooting in the Quigley Match in Montana, 4 different years, a long range, high power shooter. I have owned .03-A3 .30-06's, M1 Garands, a museum quality .30-40 Krag, a '73 Winchester Military Musket in .44 W.C.F., a 44 1/2 Stevens target rifle in .22 LR, & a few others that shot well on the farm, but my personal best was with my National Postal Meter .30 U.S. Carbine that I still own, back in 1971, with my dad as a witness. I shot a groundhog that was sunning himself one evening, in the pasture field. I used the roof of my car for a rest, estimated the range at 200 yds., using 6 O'clock sight hold, shot him dead center between the eyes, at a paced off 197 paces. I was shooting my reloads using Speer 110 gr. soft nose jacketed bullets, but don't remember the powder or how much. I do remember that it was just a slight bit faster than military specs.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 19, 2023 17:26:01 GMT -7
That 6mm BRM sure does sound interesting and accurate so I’m sure Col Townsend Whelan would certainly approve. I wasn’t clear about the 300 yards, is it just not enough cartridge to tag a coyote past 300 or you haven’t had the opportunity to try it on one past that distance yet? After I posted this question earlier today it got me thinking and I went digging around some boxes in my shop. I found what I was looking for, I even got it from the bulletmaster himself. It was the scope I used on the 25-06 I mentioned. I believe I remember hearing some where that this older Redfield 3x9 is one of the really good ones from the Vietnam era. After I took some lens cleaner and got all the dust off it was as bright and clear as ever even though it’s been in that same box for at least 20 years. Glass is probably a subjective topic and I’m sure everyone has their own preference but over the years I have come to believe that with scopes or binoculars you get what you pay for.
Where I’m living now really high quality glass to me would be a lot more of a luxury than a necessity. I would guess the maximum distance I would ever try to spot some type of game would be a thousand yards and that would be if I was hunting the edge of a big field. On the other hand I just can’t imagine even thinking about hunting Alaska, Montana or the desert southwest without the best glass I could afford. I would even venture to say I would be willing to spend more on my glass hunting AK than I would spend on the rifle I was using. One thing is for sure, if you can’t find it, identify it you sure can’t stalk it and hopefully harvest it.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 19, 2023 17:32:30 GMT -7
That’s a awesome shot Gary! I’ve only fired a magazine or two thru a M1 carbine but they sure seem handy. I hope I didn’t give the impression I’m some kind of sniper or great long range shooter because I’m about average I would say and that’s about it. Shooting the longest ranged targets was pretty much because I had the opportunity at the range I happened to be firing on. I don’t believe I would ever take a 500 yard shot on game I was hunting unless it was some type of varmit like the huge population of wild boar we have in GA!
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 19, 2023 18:14:14 GMT -7
You might think of the trajectory of the 6mm BRM with my 100 grain bullet load at 2700 fps MV as about equal to a 30-06 using a 180 grain bullet starting out at about the same speed. The difference is in the energy on target at any given range where the 30-06 will always win. The question then becomes how much energy do I need to get at least some bullet upset for a quick kill. With the 6mm brm I will guess that to be between 400 and 500 yards absolute max range.
Many years ago while hunting coyotes with a 7mm-08 Remington I had a rather strange experience relating to exactly the same issue. I was shooting a Rem 700 varmint in 7mm-08 mounted with what was then a seriously advanced ranging system built into a Springfield Armory Gov sniper scope (their name) The scope reticle was tuned to the trajectory of the 7.62 Nato 170 grain national match ammo. I studied trajectory charts and calculated that I could duplicate that trajectory with the 140 grain 7mm Sierra bullets I wanted to use with an MV of 2400 fps The scope was a 4x14 power with a unique ranging reticle. On several previous long range shots I ranged the target with the reticle but to my eye was off so went with my best guess but missed.
I decided for the next shot I was just going with the reticle no matter what I thought. That shot came when while walking at mid day I spotted a coyote sitting up way out on a ridge. I looked at him through the scope and he was looking right back at me. He seemed little concerned about me so I went prone and set up for the shot. The scope reticle told me that coyote was right at 600 yards so I held the 600 cross hair right in the middle of the vertical column that was the sitting upright coyote.
At the shot he simply stood up without apparent stress and walked away. I felt I had missed and since the coyote had been perched on a different ridge than I was walking I just kept on walking in the direction I had been headed which was the opposite direction the coyote went in. Later in the day when headed back home I took the ridge the coyote had been on just to try and figure out how much I missed him by. I found in the snow where the coyote had been and lining up with about where I thought I was I walked straight away until I found the bullet strike in the snow. Getting down on my knees and trying to align the three spots it looked like the bullet had to have been awfully close to its mark. Satisfied with that I headed home which was the direction the coyote went. After about 100 yards I noticed a tiny speck of blood on the snow which really got my attention. About every 10 or 15 yards there was another speck of blood. In about 200 yards there was the coyote laid out straight in the direction he had headed. His track showed no sigh of distress. There was so little energy transfer that he likely just felt a hot sting and walked off waiting for the effects of a mortal wound through the vitals to do its work.
That is exactly what I mean by max range for bullet action. That shot went right through the heart/lungs but the spitzer bullet didnt upset at all and only made a piercing hole that closed up behind it. Even the coyote didn't know he was dead. If that shot had been more like 450 yards I think it would have played out totally differently. I think at the shorter range there would have been enough bullet action to have gotten an immediate reaction confirming a solid hit. The thing is that at 450 yards that coyote likely wouldn't have felt quite so smug about exposing himself to a shot. He felt quite safe at 600 yards and was just sitting up there thumbing his nose at me which turned out to be his last mistake.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 19, 2023 18:32:27 GMT -7
Wow! Pretty amazing it just pretty much poked a hole in his heart huh? Was the scope you were using perhaps the ART scope used in Vietnam with the M14/21 rifle in 7.62x51? I believe the Leatherwood company came out with that scope for the military and I remember it seems like the reticle inside the scope had a bunch of information relating to range and billet drop compensation but once you learned how to use it the results it produced were fantastic.
The other type of scope I thought maybe it was is the Shepard scope that had the range finding reticle but if it was a Shepard I know you would of remembered that. One final guess I can think of is when the Marines went to the M40 on the rem 700 with a varmit weight barrel was a 3x9 by Redfield that had range estimation and bullet drop compensation info in the reticle. I have one that’s almost an exact match to this I got from you many moons ago and it’s still bright and clear and a great scope!
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 19, 2023 20:28:55 GMT -7
The scope I then had was made for Springfield for their M-1-A rifles They called it the Springfield Government model sniper scope. I never used the Leatherwood scope but I think they both used the same type of reticle. The Springfield used coupled U hash mark one up and one down each line represented a distance in minutes either up, down or horizontal. The hash harks were used for ranging. Each 100 yard interval had a cross hair and each cross hair had a number of divisions between but I cant remember how many. When I finally learned to trust it I learned the reticle worked far more consistently than my educated guesses. The glass was only of so so quality but it was the reticle that I was after. It finally made a reliable tool available for my purpose of coyote hunting that seemed to work better than a wag for long shots at coyotes. It was not perfect by a long shot but was a great aid for the task.
This was before we had affordable lasers and the optical focus type range finders of the day were to me less dependable. What we have available now with lasers and computer programs and instant real time atmospheric data at your finger tips is light years ahead but that was about the best we had then. Today if we have the tools and the time to crunch the numbers there is no more guess work and a hit or miss depends on two things how accurately you entered the data and the nut that holds on the trigger.
On that coyote there was almost no visible blood on it. The 7mm bullet just pierced a hole without displacing any tissue and when the bullet passed the already small hole closed up behind it. All the blood was inside and the coyote slowly suffocated as his lungs filled up.
That scope you got from me I got from a Nam vet named Gary Smith that was a sniper before the Marine corps sniper school was started. He told me that is what they used when he was in. I think they were special gov contract scopes that used higher quality glass than the sporting versions. He was a man I much admired in his person and his shooting ability. I got two of those scopes from him and both were very clear and bright glass. He must have thought something of me as well because when I went to see him he brought out those scopes and said he wanted me to have them because like anyone that would listen I talked his ears off about coyote hunting. He didn't give them to me but he didn't charge much either. I am pretty sure you got one of those because I cant remember having any others.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 20, 2023 3:23:49 GMT -7
That sounds exactly right to me and from what I can remember when we were talking about different scopes from the mid 60s to the early 70s most American glass just wasn’t up to the quality of the Euro glass and Jap glass was coming on strong. One brand of scope I’ve always lusted for is a Schmit and Bender. I got to play with one for a day when I was still in the Army and it’s by far the most crisp and clear scope I’ve ever looked thru. I’ll never afford a $2500 scope and I’m ok with that, if it was a tool I needed to be successful in my profession then I could justify it but I can’t only to sit inside a dark cold safe the majority of the time.
Before I forget I did want to tell you that a company called HI LUX makes great quality reproduction scopes that were on military sniper rifles and they also make scopes from the last quarter of the 19th century like the sharps and others during the Buffalo hunting peak. I’m surprised the quality of day their Unertal scope that came on military sniper or commercial target rifles is fantastic and they are a fraction of an original plus today’s lenses are so much better. Anyway they have a website so check it out!
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Dec 20, 2023 5:42:21 GMT -7
Our other very accurate rifle (another family keeper) is a Remington model 788 in .243. It shoots a Hornady 60 grain HP into very little groups at 300 yards. I do not have that load info with me but it was easy to get that load working. Have "played" with other heavier jacket slugs and all seemed to be easy to get to clover leaves at 100. I think the twist is 1-10... Most any older powders worked well. All this was used in Tennessee and our before Peru shooting and hunting. Still have about 40 rounds of that 60 grain sitting in a box waiting to get called upon again.
With Cast I have done little. As I hunt primarily river bottoms / thickets for the last 35 years other shorter range rifles / revolvers are in use.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 20, 2023 8:30:50 GMT -7
What is the industry standard for accuracy now. I remember reading the gun rags from the 70's and 80's and then it seemed that for a stock factory rifle a 1" 100 yard group was almost mythical and if you could do that the gods must surely favor you. Now today it seems like 1 moa is rather poo-poo and mundane. When I leaf through my monthly American Rifleman and check performance specks of new rifles and average accuracy hovers slightly over 1 moa I am totally unimpressed and flip the page to the next article. So I have to wonder what is the standard today ? What is that mythical accuracy goal we should hope to achieve ? For me if I am to become interested in a new rifle and the manufacturer cant offer anything better than 1 moa potential I am totally uninterested. If they can say that with some experienced tweaking of your ammo you can easily stay under .5moa then they will have my attention. To hold my attention .5 moa has to be the rule with frequent .4's and occasional .3's to brag about. The 97-D 6mm BRM will do that
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 20, 2023 12:52:30 GMT -7
I suppose ole Col Townsen Whelan had it figured out a long time ago when he said “only accurate rifles are interesting “
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 20, 2023 13:49:32 GMT -7
But for him then I suspect the accuracy goal was more like 2 moa and 3 moa likely more normal. I would much like to visit the old boy and show him what normal is now. I bet he would give us that big toothy smile we see in some of his pictures. So in about another 80 years someone might be saying the same thing about me.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 21, 2023 10:41:16 GMT -7
One thing about you my friend that’s always been an endearing quality you possess and one of my favorite things about you is you always seem to have a smile on your face! Rarely over the years no matter the adversity we might be facing at the time the smile on your face always let me know it was going to be ok and gave me the confidence I may have lacked at the time. I really wonder how much further we can really go in the accuracy game. As everyone here well knows there are so many factors that go into getting that magical group we all strive for. Since our shooting doesn’t occur in a vaccum there are always external forces like Murphy are doing their best to discourage you are ruin your day. Like the saying goes though if it was easy I suppose everyone would do it and there’s nothing quite like the satisfaction of starting out with a rifle that others just could not get to shoot for some reason and you taking it and going through the process of turning it into an accurate rifle!!
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2023 13:16:44 GMT -7
Rob your stroking me. What, do you need a loan or something? Just kidding you know. Sometimes though I think you might have an over elevated opinion of me but I hate to stop you once you get going. If I read your praise long enough I can almost begin to feel the halo forming around my head. Eventually though after a while the little horns poke through and all is normal again.
|
|
|
Post by todddoyka on Dec 21, 2023 13:17:51 GMT -7
my most accurate rifle is my TC Encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 20 Vartarg. i used to be a "one-holer" and i did everything i could do to the handloaded ammo. it was a 32gr Hornady Vmax with Reloder 7 and a CCI Benchrest SRP. .173" avg group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench). i got bored with the 20 Vartarg and now it shoots 34gr Midway/Midsouth HP and Reloder 7 with 'whatever' is a SRP. 1/2 - 3/4" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench).
i had a Savage m340 in 222 Remington that i just loved. i shot a 50gr Hornady SP and a max load of H322 with an old 6x Swift scope. i killed groundhogs, foxes, crows and a whole bunch of other stuff. i killed a crow at around 350-375 yards, i didn't have a laser range finder, because it hadn't been invented yet. i think it was around 5000 to 6000 rounds that was diagnosed by my gunsmith (RIP) to be "shot out" and the top of my chamber was "fried". i don't know how many other rounds the 222 digested, it was bought second, third, fourth hand. but i shot out the barrel. i bought other 2nd hand rifles that were "shot out" by the owners, but i give the rifle a good cleaning of Sweets or Shooters Choice and then the rifle's barrel was clean and shiny as the day it was made. copper build-up had many barrels "shot out". people used to gun oil and nitro solvent to clean their guns. nitro solvent was good for burned powder, but it left copper in the barrel. my gunsmith got me into Shooter Choice to take the burned powder and copper.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 21, 2023 16:50:01 GMT -7
I agree with Todd about sweets being the best for removing copper jacket fouling from rifle barrels. You have got to be careful with it and can’t leave it in the bore for an extended period of time or it will mess it up for sure!
I was watching a shooting video on YouTube earlier today and they made a statement I’m just not sure about. They said that a lever action rifle will never be consistently accurate because most are tube fed and because of this each shot fired will be different because the weight shifts and is different between each shot and this affects barrel harmonics. This was the first time I’ve ever heard someone say this. Have any of you heard this or found it to be true or false?
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2023 18:11:38 GMT -7
Your opening up a can of worms Rob. A key word would be hypothetically. Add to that there are no absolutes. Another point to be made is that it does not always have to be fed from the tube or if it is then a fresh round can be added after each shot to maintain a number of rounds in the tube. No you will never see a conventional lever action built into a bench rest rifle but the same can be said about a bunch of other types of sporting rifles too.
Hand placement on the forend and grip pressure can have just as much affect as the mag tube. I have found that if the mounting of the tube or the forend is loose and allows any movement accuracy can be poor but on the same token a bolt action rifle or any other that has a pre load stock pressure on one side of the barrel will have the same effect.
In theory I will agree , to a point. In practice much of it can be overcome with fine tuning the fit to be snug and even. With a lever that may be a little more complicated because there are several contact points between the barrel and the forend and the tube which hangs between. All those points need to be solid and even.
About a year ago I did a little test to satisfy my own curiosity. I picked up a Fred Leith mold for a 200 gn 32 caliber tapered spitzer bullet intended to be breach seated in 32 caliber cartridges like the 32-40. The only rifle I had to test the mold with was a Marlin model 336 in 32 Win special. I made a case filled with lead and used it to breach seat some of the bullets in the stock Marlin and they shot good and on point ""consistently"" at I would say 2 moa. Then I began to wonder what would be the affect of removing the forend and mag tube so I tried that. With the tube and forend removed and loading single shot breach seating the bullets there was no question that I did see an improvement in accuracy of maybe as much as 50%.
So in summary removing the forend and mag tube improved accuracy but both ways were consistent which is the point in question not the absolute accuracy.
|
|
|
Post by Junior on Dec 21, 2023 19:10:33 GMT -7
Accuracy is an odd thing. My rifle I have the shoots the tightest groups is a Tikka 6.5 free more, and I can click shots in with that rifle with precision out as far as I desire.
But just guessing holdover and lobbing shots? Gotta be my old iron sighted 308. I can just hit with that thing, and that sporterized Arisaka is the same way but I haven’t shot it nearly as much.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2023 21:34:13 GMT -7
Your right Jr. there is a big difference between accuracy from the bench and accuracy in the field. A 15 pound bench gun can be very impressive from the bench but an awkward anchor in the field. What matters in the field is hitting where you aim nothing else. What makes that possible is a rifle that fits you and your good with. In the field you often don't have the luxury of time as at the bench. It hard to get off a quick shot with a rifle that wields like a boat anchor.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 21, 2023 22:06:39 GMT -7
Don’t kill the messenger!! I was mainly just trying to find out if anyone had heard that statement about tube fed leverguns as I never had. I honestly feel like the point is completely moot. In my opinion and just that my opinion leverguns on average meant to serve a purpose that even most bolt guns are not. What I mean by that is the majority of folks that hunt with a lever action are mostly keeping their shots within two hundred yards because of the terrain they are hunting on. I’m certainly not saying longer shots are not possible because that’s foolish as that situation could happen on most any hunt. Staying with this scenario the lever even at two or three MOA on the outside on deer size game or larger is completely adequate for that type of hunting. That’s going with the premise the hunter can do his part regarding shot placement.
The other side of the coin would be a hunter selecting a bolt action because of the situation. What I mean by that is he knows beforehand he will have the opportunity for longer shots at game and he has selected a more appropriate tool for the job. A hunter most certainly could chose to take a lever gun but I believe the majority or average hunter would be limited on his accuracy at longer ranges. There will always be those outliers that have a unique ability much like one of my hero’s Tom Horn and are able to perform fantastic long range shots with a lever gun. I suppose what it boils down too and I’m trying to express is like my teacher pointed out when he spoke about the bench rifle being greatly suited when a supported platform is available versus if one were to try and simply carry a benchrest rifle on a hunt and have to take a shot at game unsupported. The mission or hunt will most often which tool the hunter will use to accomplish his goal. If he has the luxury of choosing from several rifles he can mate the rifle to the hunt considering the factors discussed previously. These statements are simple and my opinion and you may have a completely different idea about the subject. That’s fantastic and exactly the way it should be. I’m embarrassed to admit it took me a while to really understand that concept. I thought more in black and white in those days and generally thought if you didn’t agree with my opinion on whatever subject you were wrong. Finally I came to understand that it would be an awfully boring world if everyone agreed with what everyone said. That’s why they make vanilla and chocolate ice cream!😁
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 21, 2023 22:33:45 GMT -7
Rob, I went to Cheyenne, WY after spending 2 days at the Little Bighorn Battlefield in 2016, after shooting at the Matthew Quigley BP Cartridge match in Forsyth, MT. I asked a counter person in a parts store where Tom Horn was hanged. He told me the location was very nearby. Iasked where the gallows was, & he didn't know, but directed me to the WY Historical Museum, a few blocks away. The director told me that the gallows had been taken apart & the wood used for other purposes, but showed me Tom's last pair of shoes. He told me where the Lakeview Cemetery was located, so I went there & got photos of Willie Nichols' & his parents graves, among other notable persons from that era. The next year, I visited the old prison at Rawlins, & the newer one in Laramie. They are now museums with guided tours. In Laramie, they had a small working model of the water powered gallows on display. I think it only took less than 5 seconds for the trap to drop after weight is put on it. It is an interesting contraption, but is very deadly.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 21, 2023 23:00:52 GMT -7
I am glad you brought up the Quigley shoot Gary. I wanted to point out that there is a class for lever guns at that shoot. If anyone wants to witness how well a tuned up lever gun can perform at long range that would be a good event to watch. I think the buffalo is about 825 yards and is not often missed by the top shooters even with lever guns. The Marlin cowboy in 45-70 is popular for that event. You will also see 1886 Win both original and replica and original 1895 Marlin rifles.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 22, 2023 0:36:23 GMT -7
Thanks for the great information Gary! Those places seem to have really grown and they sure sound like they would be interesting to visit!!
Ok Pard, I feel like I might have stepped on some toes or upset some of the levergun lovers! That’s why if folks will revisit my post and read it carefully I was implicit that I was not saying leverguns were not capable of accuracy at long range in capable hands. I also was crystal clear that the statements I wrote were my opinion and only that. I am well aware of some of the unbelievable things others have done with a levergun including accomplishing accurate hits on targets that are normally unheard of. While all of that is a fact as you pointed out I still believe most hunters that use a levergun as their primary weapon are limited to shots of 200 yards or less on average.
Finally I also believe that the majority of hunters that have the ability to choose which type of rifle(action) they hunt with if terrain allows for shots over 200 yards most, not all hunters will tend to chose a bolt action rifle. I would imagine that rifle sales would confirm this but I have no way to say it’s a definite fact.
|
|
|
Post by missionary on Dec 22, 2023 3:42:10 GMT -7
Many areas a bolt rifle is not the better. Woods , rivers bottoms... clearing a building! A lever action would by far be my choice. A whole lot of hunting, stalking will get rethought through the first time you catch a glimpse a cougar stalking through the growth.
|
|
|
Post by Bullshop on Dec 22, 2023 8:29:15 GMT -7
Sorry Rob I didn't mean to hammer on you I meant to defend you against those that would have you believe that a lever gun might be a poor choice . I think too that maybe new people to guns and shooting people that may previously have been borderline anti gun but due to the obvious fact that your best first line of defense is you are now reconsidering that position and becoming first time gun buyers. These people are for the most part ignorant of all the different types of guns and how they function. Their choice will be driven largely by cost. For those people and that reason lever guns are out because there are no cheap lever guns. Even the cheap levers like the Rossi are expensive. Our daughter Joy decided she would like to get a Rossi trapper stainless in 44 mag. Tina checked the dealer cost yesterday at about $650.00. For a new Ruger Marlin forget about it as I dont think you can touch one for less than $1,000.0 probably more like $1,200.00 On the other hand there are many far less expensive bolt guns like the Ruger American and Savage that you can get out the door for about $400.00. So for an ignorant person with the mind set that all guns are the same the way cheaper bolt will always win.
There are other reasons too like the idea that nostalgic designs are somehow inferior to modern designs. Cowboy shooting may have done much to propagate that idea. I see the same thing on the used bullet mold market. Some sellers have an idea that all bullet molds are vintage simply because its a bullet mold and in their view the practice of bullet casting ended with the free range buffalo. These sellers will price a $35.00 Lee mold that left the factory last year at $250.00 because as they point out its vintage. I guess the fact that no one bids on it should tell them something. Or if someone actually pays that much for it I might become a wealthy man.
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 22, 2023 9:58:34 GMT -7
Daniel, as you have been there, I will list the 6 targets & ranges for the other readers. # 1, Buffalo, 5' x 7' @ 805 yds, # 2, Octagon, 48" dia., 600 yds. # 3, Rectangle, 28" w x 32" h. #4, Diamond, 24" dia., 405 yds. # 5, Rectangle, 22"w x 28"h. # 6, Off Hand "Bucket", 28" w at top, 22" w at bottom, 32" h. 8 shots per target, by squads in relays. #'s 1 thru 5 are shot from sitting position, using cross sticks. This year's winner, by target: #1, 6 hits, #2, 6 hits, #3, 7 hits, # 4, 8 hits, # 5, 7 hits, & # 6, 7 hits, for a total of 41 hits out of 48 shots in the cross winds of Montana. The nest 4 shooters scored 40 hits. If any of you ever get the chance to experience this event that is held on Father's Day weekend, go. I have been there 4 times, & wish that it wasn't 1,500 miles away, or I would go every year.
|
|
|
Post by grasshopper on Dec 22, 2023 10:12:34 GMT -7
I didn’t think you were jumping on me I just wanted everyone to be sure and read what I actually said. I don’t believe there is one perfect rifle that will be perfect in whatever scenario a Hunter might face. The point I didn’t do a very good job of explaining is to me a rifle in a hunting situation is part of the entire kit and is used as a tool to accomplish the mission. Also that most of us are lucky enough to have several rifles and have the ability to mate the rifle with the situation and conditions we will face on that specific hunt or terrain or whatever.
|
|
|
Post by shootist---Gary on Dec 22, 2023 10:29:59 GMT -7
Rob, check your messages. Call me.
|
|