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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2023 8:28:16 GMT -7
The idea occurred to me last night that I may be able to paper patch 243 bullets for this rifle which would completely eliminate any possibility of leading. I have a couple different 6mm molds that drop about a 100 grain bullet depending on the alloy at about .246" + or -. Those could be cast soft and with a double wrap patch of 9lb paper should run about .257". Seating the patched bullets may prove to be a problem but may be worth trying. Once again I believe I am seeing yet another advantage to the Pope muzzleloading system where the false muzzle used to start the bullet into the barrel had an x recess cut into the face of the false muzzle to align the two strips of paper used for the then popular cross patch . Pushing the patched bullet in base first would help hold the patch on the bullet where as pushing the patched bullet into the barrel at the breech end nose first would be more difficult in getting it started without damaging the patch. I wonder if there are any gunsmiths that could cut two inches of the muzzle end of a barrel and use it to make such bullet starting device. It might be another lost talent in the gun smith field.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 11, 2023 9:07:05 GMT -7
Why wouldn't drilling 2 small holes for alignment pins at the muzzle, then cut off the desired length for a false starter, then ream it smooth for the correct diameter of the patched bullet work? Also, the new muzzle of the barrel would have to be crowned. I know that the barrel that you are using isn't as large diameter as the larger bore rifles, but could the same principal be used on a smaller scale. Just my random thoughts. Hope you can find the solution without a lot of complications. Stay warm. P.S., Another thought after finishing the above, for a false muzzle on a small outside diameter barrel, get a piece of bar stock that is large enough diameter to fit over the outside of your barrel after drilling & reaming it to the correct outside diameter of your barrel, then, as long as the hole is perfectly aligned with the bore, maybe, no pins would be needed. I don't think that an experienced machinist or gunsmith would have a hard time doing this. Let us know what your experienced mind thinks about the possibilities.
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Post by missionary on Feb 11, 2023 9:21:39 GMT -7
Would it not be viable to make a false starter that slip fits the outside of the barrel? Seems like you mentioned this in a previous post.
Just for fun PP some soft cast and load 10 brass with 3F Goex. You will establish real fast how accurate that barrel can be. Be a fun "shoot" where no special set-ups needed. Just any no wind, no freeze day.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 11, 2023 9:24:29 GMT -7
Mike, I see that you & I are thinking along the same lines. That thought came to me after I posted my thinking, so I edited my post, then yours appeared.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2023 10:48:52 GMT -7
The issue is the gradual start into full depth rifling. The false muzzle of this sort had rifling in the starter that went from zero gradually to full depth rifling fully engraving the bullet before it enters the barrel proper. The issue with first pinning then cutting for the false muzzle is the curf of the cut. Once the length is reduced by the curf width the rifling between the two parts is out of time when faced together. I dont know how it was done, its too complicated to wrap my mind around. As for a slip on starter they are usually used in traditional muzzleloading rifles to help with a gentle start of a patched ball or bullet that will ride the land tops to the fully seated position in the barrel where as with the type of rifle I am shooting bullets are fully engraves to the bottom of the lands to groove depth weather introduced from the breach or the muzzle. Oh and Gary I dont know where you got the impression that the barrel may be thin at the muzzle but at 1.210" diameter it is not thin, this is a heavy gun.
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Post by shootist---Gary on Feb 11, 2023 11:11:51 GMT -7
Daniel, I guess that because it a smaller caliber, that the barrel isn't a very large diameter. As for the metal lost during the cutting of the barrel, could an aluminum spacer of the same thickness as the saw blade & bored to groove diameter, be adhered to the false muzzle, so that the rifling would be continuous as if it hadn't been cut? My mind is searching for possibilities, but it has no training in such things. Remember, I am an 80 year old retired truck owner / driver, with a lot of idle time to think.
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Post by missionary on Feb 11, 2023 13:29:31 GMT -7
That passage from the muzzle end would leave a bullet nose well battered without a perfect fitting nose rammer.
On that .25 do the muzzle diameters equal those down at the breech ? Just wondering if maybe yours has a choked muzzle.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2023 18:39:13 GMT -7
Gary my friend I am just a retired tree killer with exactly zero expertise in machining so no real idea of what a correct procedure would be. Just a skeeter with a mind full of questions. If ya didnt know skeeter is South African for shooter. I learned that from Skeeter Skelton.
Mike you are right about the loading rod it had to be a perfect fit to the bullet. I believe the bore was wiped clean between shots and the false muzzle starter made engraving the bullet easy and then went down the length of the barrel smoothly.
I had to go to town today to pick up a rifle that was being held for me from an estate. It appears to be a very early Haenel off hand match rifle but there are no markings to prove it. A very interesting rifle in good condition that I hope to share info on as I gain it in a thread dedicated to that rifle. We got home early enough to get in a little shooting with the Hoch rifle and even though I vowed to not use it without chrono and cleaning rod I just had to see how it would act after the last lead removal session. I didnt shoot very much only enough to see if it would go back to good shooting and it did. My loading procedure was a little different this time. First of all I decided to go back to the original powder that came in charged cases with the rifle Accurate #9. The charged cases that came with the rifle held 7.7 gn of #9 which seemed too hot to me where I found that even 7.5gn seemed too hot. Something I noticed today was that with the 6.5gn load there was no primer flow protrusion around the firing pin something I had noticed about fired brass that came with the rifle likely fired with the 7.7gn load that came in the charged cases. Because of that I went and checked the brass I fired last week that caused the leading problem and sure enough there it was the primer protrusion showing apparently excessive pressure for the soft bullet alloy. Now I know that is something else I have to watch for in load development. Besides reducing the powder charge I also reduced the bullet diameter from the .259" I had been using to .257". That made bullet seating easier and seemed to show the accuracy was back with a sub .5"cluster. Then I remembered something that DR. Mann said in his book that their best grouping was always with a bullet with what he called a base band larger in diameter at the base band than the rest of the bullet. Recalling that and wanting to try it what I did was to take some lubed bullets that had been sized to .259" and run them nose first into the .257" sizer having the depth adjusted to not allow that base driving band to enter the die. This gave a bullet diameter of .257" on all drive bands accept the base band at .259" Sounds so simple like it couldnt possibly make much difference but the following group would indicate otherwise. I didnt measure it but was simple to see well under half inch. Something else I was pondering came from Harvy Donaldson when he said " no number of cartridge cases can be as consistently uniform as one" When I get some of the other variables worked out that will be something else I will have to try shooting groups using one single case. Slow loading for sure but will eliminate all case related variables with that single case indexed in the same position in the chamber for each shot. I can see that this rifle will teach patience.
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Post by missionary on Feb 12, 2023 15:02:50 GMT -7
Dr Mann and Harvy Donaldson ! Just writting those two names together challenges any rifleman to have taken copious notes while re-reading certain pages to the point of "faiding print". Reminds me of Ned Roberts books !!! We have a set of 20 file marked cases indexed for our 1st 43 Roller. Best shooting "real Roller" we own.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 13, 2023 9:34:59 GMT -7
I read Ned Roberts book on muzzleloading rifles and I believe he was an authority on function as well as history. I have not yet read his later books but certainly shood.
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Post by missionary on Feb 13, 2023 15:53:27 GMT -7
There is one about flintlocks and several SS books. The flintlock book is elusive.
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 21, 2023 17:16:56 GMT -7
Hey Mike guess what, Tina ordered the Ned Roberts single shot book for me. I'm smiling ! Tomorrow we are supposed to get cold again in the minus 20's for a couple days so I will be doing inside stuff for awhile. Yesterday I tried some fixed ammo in the 25 hornet and the results were dismal. at best. I finally got around to turning some case necks reducing diameter by .002" and that combined with sizing bullets to .257" had the fixed ammo chambering freely. I found a small stash of about 30 bullets that were over run from a custom order from a vintage Winchester mold for an 85 grain plain base bullet. The customer specified 20 to 1 alloy and usually I dont keep small amounts of over run but I saved these because I wanted to try the 20-1 alloy something I rarely ever do because of the expense of the alloy. I charge a 50% premium over our standard soft alloy for 20-1 Scratching my head as to the why for the poor performance my guess is that the bases of the soft alloy are bumping up in the throat then swaging back down unevenly when fully into the rifling. I have not lost hope yet for accuracy from this rifle with fixed ammo but I dont expect it to be as good as with breach seating the bullets. I think to get acceptable accuracy with fixed ammo I will have to use a gas checked bullet and maybe couple that with a slightly harder alloy. Dont know for sure but I do like trying different things. The only reason I want fixed ammo is to be able to load a little faster for when I set up near a gopher infestation and things are moving around quickly. If I am unsuccessful at finding accurate fixed ammo for this rifle I will not be at all disappointed because it shoots so pleasingly well breach seating.. I feel like I am closing in on a best load so far and it will be somewhere between 6.5 to 7 grain of Accurate #9 with a small pistol primer and the breach seated 110 grain Dave Moss bullet. I tried a couple small batches with 6.5gn and they did really well but there always seems to be one off shot in a group that runs out half an inch from a cluster that is close to a raged hole. What I think I am seeing so far is that 6.5gn is not quite there but 7 grain is over the top. I have some cases charged with 6.7gn to try on the next outing but that wont be until after this coming cold snap. I have a feeling the 6.7gn charge might be the one. If anyone thinks that 1/10th grain of powder dont make any difference this rifle will sure change your mind about that. Once I am set on the powder charge then I can start to focus on other variables one at a time until I get everything to the best possible point and at that point group size variation will be more controlled by weather conditions and trigger control than anything else. At that point winning or loosing comes down to ability not equipment. My ability may be in question but at least the right load and procedure will be discovered for a person that has the ability to go along with the equipment. Ya hear that Jr. ?
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Post by missionary on Feb 22, 2023 6:10:32 GMT -7
I believe It ! A caliber .41 Mag is some bit larger. But when I was looking for that "absolute most accurate" with our Dan Wesson it came down to .10 grain ladder test. There it was. Instead of 1.50" (Creedmore laying down), 5 rounds all day long hoovering close to 1" but always under 1.25" at 100 meters. Still the most accurate revolver we have owned. 8"Barrel clearance is .001. Barrel tension tight. Sorted brass that stays in a box marked "DW Only". Neck sized only.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 3, 2023 17:37:30 GMT -7
Haven't been here in a while so will add a little. When I first got this rifle I was anxious to get shooting so I cast up a little over 100 bullet using scrap lead and just throwing together a batch that I thought should come in at about a soft BHN-9 Those shot good and after shooting about half of those not wanting to run out I repeated the same process. Both batches had to be very close to the same hardness but for what little difference there is this rifle can tell them apart enough that a load developed for the first batch would not repeat the same performance with the second batch. Not that the second batch was not also accurate just not with the same load developed with the first. That made it crystal clear that I needed to be able to precisely duplicate bullet alloy so as not to have to rework the load for every new batch of bullets. For that reason most recently I cast a couple hundred bullets in 20-1 lead to tin alloy. In breach seating the bullets I really cant notice any difference in required pressure to seat the bullets but the rifle sure can. In reworking the load for the 20-1 bullets it took a little more powder than I had been shooting to get the accuracy. I mean we are only talking 1/10th grain difference in powder charge for each different batch of bullets but just as this rifle is very sensitive to bullet alloy so too is it sensitive to those 1/10th grain powder charges. Another area of change since last time here is to powder burn rate. I had assumed from input from others about this cartridge the 25 hornet that Accurate #9 was the base burn rate for best performance but always checking other possibilities was working slowly in the direction of slower burning powders even as slow as the Accurate LT-30 mentioned. These slower powders were showing potential for good accuracy but never giving absolutely repeatable performance. After each shooting session I like to ponder the results and try to analyze the why of changes. I started thinking about a favorite load in the 22 hornet that uses 2.9 grain of Accurate #2 with a 50 grain plain base bullet to duplicate the original performance of the 22 wcf at 1550 fps. I originally thought that the much heavier bullet in the 25 hornet at 120 grain would generate much higher pressure than to 50 grain bullet of the hornet both in the same case. Expansion ratio proved my assumption wrong and the same case at 25 caliber even with the much heavier bullet required substantially more of the same powder to get to the same velocity range. The good news on that is that the much faster burning Accurate #2 powder is delivering repeatable accuracy with amazingly tight grouping. In the 25 hornet the sweet spot is 4.8 grain of Accurate #2 with the 120 grain Dave Moss bullet sparked by a CCI # 500 SP primer. It still must be confirmed with several 10 shot groups but it is looking very good. My incorrect assumption on appropriate powder burn rate opens up a whole new area for testing on the faster side of what I thought was a base burn rate at Accurate #9 There are still many things to try as to primers, lube, bullet diameter and temper but I am inching ever so slowly toward THE BEST in this rifle. Oh yes something else I didnt mention is bullet lube. I know from reading old shooting journals that in the golden years of single shot rifle competition that top competitors had different lube formula for different weather conditions weather hot or cold or dry or damp. Thinking about how cold its been I began to wonder if the Lotak lube I had been using may be too hard for the below freezing temps I am shooting in. Todays high was 30*F so for todays shooting I lubed the 20-1 alloy bullets with our much softer NASA lube and judging from our final group clusters for the day it was the right move. Still lots more shooting to do with this rifle but for sure I am getting a handle on it and am light years ahead of my first shots with it.
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Post by missionary on Apr 3, 2023 21:24:52 GMT -7
Thank you Dan ! I do enjoy reading this quest for accuracy. 20-1 is a firm mix for such a mild load. But then every barrel has it's own parameters for that "best" load combination.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 4, 2023 7:23:18 GMT -7
Mike I am not yet stuck on 20-1 alloy and future testing may well prove that a slight change will work even better. The thing I am stuck on is a precisely repeatable alloy formula. Once I find what the rifles tells me it likes best I need to be able to precisely duplicate that alloy what ever it is. This rifle is teaching that in all aspects of loading for it consistency is the key to repeatable accuracy. Bullets from the Dave Moss mold drop at .259" at the base drive band. Side by side testing with .259" and .257" have proven that .257" is more consistent. I recently read in Ned Roberts book on single shot rifles Hary Popes explanation on why he felt that his muzzle/breach loading system was potentially more accurate that the breach loading system of seating the bullet separately ahead of the charged case that was being used by most competitors of the day. Mr. Pope said that in breach seating a bullet as the bullet is being engraves the bullet metal that is being displaced by the rifling lands causes finning at the bullet base in each of the land grooves cut into the bullet. He said that the finning was never consistent and was one cause of inconsistent accuracy. With his muzzle loading system the bullet is being pushed into the lands in the opposite direction when being engraved so the bullet metal being displaced by the lands is at the front end of the bullet at the origin of ogive where it has far less effect on the bullets flight. All agreed that as near as can be to a perfect bullet base is essential to good accuracy. I now suspect that this may be the reason that a .257" bullet diameter is more consistent in this rifle than a .259" diameter because the larger bullet diameter would certainly have greater potential for finning at the bullet base than would the smaller diameter. There I go analyzing results again. One thing for sure though this for me is a fun process. The process is more my thing than the end result. I go through this with about every rifle I get testing until I feel I have peaked in accuracy possibilities then after the search is over it seems that rifle is not nearly as fun any longer. Maybe this one will be different in that when I get there to that peak accuracy point I hope to compete with the rifle at the Butte Schuetzen matches held by the Bitterroot Schuetzen Society in the winter months at the old Schuetzen house in Butte. This should give me enough time to get to a level of repeatable performance that I feel confident with. Looking at the match results of the ASSRA BR matches to be a top notch competitor shooting plain base cast bullets if you cant stay under .5moa your not in the game. You have to average in the .4's and occasionally shoot .3's to keep a .4 average. I think by summers end Lord willing I will be competitive as I believe I am slowly gaining on that goal.
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