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Post by bigjeepman on Feb 10, 2018 19:20:25 GMT -7
Welcome Doug ! I hope those bullets shoot well for you. Here where I live in south west MT. I often see elk herds like in your pic when out on my walkabouts. When they are bunched that tightly there is something on the wind that has their attention. Browsing or bedding normally they wont be bunched that close together. When I was younger I would follow herds like this while coyote hunting. The coyotes will follow the herds not so much for the elk but for the small critters they disturb as they slowly browsing, mice and rabbits and such. I found if I stayed 400 to 500 yards down wind and moved slowly I wouldn't spook them. I did always wear snow camo and am sure that helped me blend into the distant background. Spotting deer or elk has always been a method of hunting coyotes I employ. I like to climb to a high spot then glass for some herds then move to a down wind location and first glass the fringes of the herd then call. Its a productive method to produce fur. I grew up in the Midwest so seeing even one elk or moose is exciting for me. Hunting coyotes is something I did back home for many years but following an elk herd to find 'yotes sounds really smart. I'm hoping to get that Sharps in February but in the meantime, I have learned a lot about the casting process from you Daniel and I appreciate it. I'll never cast my own as it is just something I do not want to do as I do a lot of woodworking projects, reloading and shooting, and getting out in the country on my Razor. Thanks for having me here ...
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Post by Bullshop on Feb 11, 2018 14:26:53 GMT -7
Your welcome and its good to have you here participating. This is a really slow quiet laid back place to visit and enjoy the company and input from other like minded folks that enjoy being out in the hills and shooting and all that goes with it. This is a peaceful place free from bickering and name calling that often seems the norm for other similar sites. We cant boast a wide audience but we can a peaceful one. Occasionally if you pay attention you will catch when members drop gems of helpful wisdom that help move us forward in the understanding and pursuit of our passion!
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Post by 4given on Apr 9, 2020 9:32:07 GMT -7
New Guy here from Idaho. Missionary recommended I come here to figure out how to get cast bullets to shoot accurately through my Marlin 1894Cs .357 mag. I'll take a look around. Glad to be here!
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 9, 2020 11:13:17 GMT -7
I shoot a Marlin 357 mag too. It can be a finicky rascal at times. I got it real cheap and after a bit found out why, it had a bulged barrel. That and it had a really poor camo paint job. We sent it to Marlin and at the time all they had was stainless barrels available or I could wait six months before they would have blued barrels available again so stainless it is. It was a bear to get that new stainless barrel to settle down and start shooting decent. It took at least 1000 rounds of cast bullets, (the only bullets ever used in it) to start shooting good. Now after several 1000 rounds its getting pretty darn good. It also had some serious feeding issues that I attributed to be caused by an incorrect cartridge lifter. Not wanting to pay the asking rate for the correct lifter I did an extensive rework of the original. Getting that dang lifter to work properly took several attempts over a couple years but finally it now feeds about any bullet nose shape from the mag. I gave up on that several times but then given several month intervals to forget the frustration I would pick it up again for another try each time gaining a better understanding of what the problem was and how to correct it. Being prodded by my younger girls that really like shooting the little rifle surely had some bearing on the length of negative intervals between attempts. So with the cheering squad prodding me on and not being a quitter we finally achieved the goal of smooth feeding. The Marlin 357 mag can be a fun plinking rifle with light loads or with heavy charges of H-110 and heavy bullets like the RCBS 200gn FN-GC is well worthy of being a moderate range deer rifle. Those two performance levels cover a lot of ground in-between.
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Post by 4given on Apr 10, 2020 8:37:25 GMT -7
I shoot a Marlin 357 mag too. It can be a finicky rascal at times. I got it real cheap and after a bit found out why, it had a bulged barrel. That and it had a really poor camo paint job. We sent it to Marlin and at the time all they had was stainless barrels available or I could wait six months before they would have blued barrels available again so stainless it is. It was a bear to get that new stainless barrel to settle down and start shooting decent. It took at least 1000 rounds of cast bullets, (the only bullets ever used in it) to start shooting good. Now after several 1000 rounds its getting pretty darn good. It also had some serious feeding issues that I attributed to be caused by an incorrect cartridge lifter. Not wanting to pay the asking rate for the correct lifter I did an extensive rework of the original. Getting that dang lifter to work properly took several attempts over a couple years but finally it now feeds about any bullet nose shape from the mag. I gave up on that several times but then given several month intervals to forget the frustration I would pick it up again for another try each time gaining a better understanding of what the problem was and how to correct it. Being prodded by my younger girls that really like shooting the little rifle surely had some bearing on the length of negative intervals between attempts. So with the cheering squad prodding me on and not being a quitter we finally achieved the goal of smooth feeding. The Marlin 357 mag can be a fun plinking rifle with light loads or with heavy charges of H-110 and heavy bullets like the RCBS 200gn FN-GC is well worthy of being a moderate range deer rifle. Those two performance levels cover a lot of ground in-between. Mine is a like new JM model 1894CS carbine with an 18 1/2" bbl made in 1995 according to the serial number. It wasn't cheap but it sure is pretty! I hope it is not as finicky as yours. It seems to feed fine so far. It just does not seem to shoot .358 dia cast very well. Terrible groups ... 5" - 7" at 30 yards kinda terrible... I Just ordered some coated .379 from a guy to try. Brother Mike (missionary) recommended I might try even larger like .360 or .361. When you go that big do you even size your brass? Anyway I put a scope on it temporarily to do load testing. Once I find some good loads I have a Williams FP receiver sight I will install. I am testing it this weekend with 158gr FP/XTP over 2400 and H-110 and 140gr XTP over Longshot to see if this carbine will at least shoot jacketed rounds. Here are some pictures All dressed up for he range
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Post by missionary on Apr 11, 2020 7:06:39 GMT -7
Good morning Brother I a glad you made it here. Dan is a fine Brother who knows more about cast lead than I can absorb in one sitting. Plus he knows the right Persons in our future. That is one fine Marlin !!! Always think "fat" when getting your fingers on any rifle / hand cannon that will be fed cast.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 7:35:39 GMT -7
Top of the morning gentleman! I neglected to mention that when I had my rifle re-barreled all they had available were micro groove barrels. Contrary to conventional wisdom a MG barrel can shoot cast well. I do believe the MG barrel may be a bit more finicky than the Ballard type rifling but if fed with as Mike said a fat diameter and I will add hard alloy as well as a design that offers the greatest bearing surface the MG barrels can shoot cast extremely well. Consider for a moment that the first commercial use of a type of micro groove rifling was offered by none other than Harry Pope in his world class custom target rifles and I doubt if any of the original owners of those Pope built rifles ever put a jacketed bullet through their barrel. In my Marlin 357 mag I use bullets at .360" diameter. As I said maximize that bearing surface. The first decent shooting from my new stainless barrel was with the RCBS 200gn FN-GC at .360" diameter. That bullet is normally considered to be THE 35 Remington bullet but from the 357 Marlin can get decent velocity and outstanding accuracy. A couple years ago Lee Precision came out with a near copy of the RCBS 35-200 fn-gc and since they offer it in the 6 cavity commercial mold blocks I had to try it. It shoots as good as the RCBS as you would expect because it is a near copy. At the same time Lee scaled down to design to a 55gn 22 caliber and well you can guess I couldn't resist and that too is a winning design that shoots well even in rifling twist rate as slow as 1/16" So there you go with a few things to consider for your accuracy trials. Something you can count on is if those things don't solve the problem we will be here to assist and wont quit until the problem is solved !
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 8:53:18 GMT -7
Here I have to add another possible cause of inaccuracy and a way to determine if it is a problem. The issue is inherent to all conventional lever actions in the way the fore end and magazine tube are attached. Often the magazine and fore end components can set up a stress or bind that effects the free repeatable movement of the barrel. The way to determine if your fore end assembly is causing an accuracy issue is to completely remove the entire fore end assembly consisting of the fore end, barrel band, mag tube, spring, and follower. It will not be necessary to remove the fore end hanger that is dovetailed into the barrel for this test. With the fore end assembly removed try shooting some groups by resting only the rifles receiver and not at all resting anywhere on the barrel. If the fore end hanger is loose and moves easily remove it too. If it is tight and not vibrating from shooting it can stay. If there are any issues with your fore end assembly setting up a bind with your barrel it will be quickly revealed with this procedure. If it shoots better with the assembly off than on you will then know where at least part of the problem is. On my conventional lever actions I want an almost imperceptible amount of free movement of the fore end just enough to know there is no bind. Same goes for the mag tube that you want to be sure there is no stress set up in the assembly. A tight fore end assembly seems nice giving a solid feel but if that bugger wont shoot good might be the problem. I don't mean floppy loose here as that too can be a problem I mean just enough to eliminate any bind that might exist. Another thing to check is the barrel crown. My Son recently bought one of the Chiappa 22 RF lever guns that from the box shot horribly. We gave the rifle a close inspection and found an awful bugger hanging at the edge of one of the rifling grooves. It was removed easily with a dental pick and then proved capable of good accuracy. Ya never know !
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 9:08:15 GMT -7
Looking at your pictures and looking at my gun I see some slight difference at the front barrel band area. My gun has a front sight ramp screwed on the barrel in front of the barrel band and I see your rifle has its front sight dove tailed into the barrel just behind the front barrel band. Also the location of the barrel bands is different. I see that on your rifle the front barrel band is much closer to the muzzle than on mine which is set quite a bit farther back from the muzzle. This of necessity because of the much longer front sight ramp used on my rifle than the short dovetail sight used on yours. Not that any of this makes a difference just noting the differences. Mine is an older pre safety model too but as earlier stated has a newer SS micro groove barrel.
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Post by 4given on Apr 11, 2020 12:31:30 GMT -7
Thanks for all the great comments! I went to he range with some jacketed bullets and I found a good load with real potential! Using the Hornady 158gr FP/XTP I loaded test loads with 2400 and H-110 and shot groups at 50 yards. The 2400 did OK with groups in the 1' - 1.5" range. A LOT better that the .358 dia cast were doing. Looks like here is nothing wrong with the rifle. Then I shot the H-110 loads and Wala! Now we are talking! Both test loads shot 3 into one ragged hole. Looks like I might be onto something! Maybe the .359 dia cast I ordered might like the H-110 also. The only fly in the ointment is that was the last of that can of H-110 so know I have to open a brand new can of 296 (same powder of course just a lot newer powder of a different lot) I think will to do a little more testing .....
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Post by 4given on Apr 11, 2020 12:34:36 GMT -7
Good morning Brother I a glad you made it here. Dan is a fine Brother who knows more about cast lead than Ian absorb in one sitting. Plus he knows the right Persons in our future. That is one fine Marlin !!! Always think "fat" when getting your fingers on any rifle / hand cannon that will be fed cast. Thanks brother Mike! Glad to be here and glad to know Dan is another Brother in Christ! Fat is where its at!
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 12:43:36 GMT -7
Well you certainly cleared up that mystery! There is nothing wrong with that rifle. I didn't see if you mentioned if yours is micro groove or Ballard type rifling ? That is going to be a hard act to follow for any other bullets.
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Post by 4given on Apr 11, 2020 13:25:30 GMT -7
Well you certainly cleared up that mystery! There is nothing wrong with that rifle. I didn't see if you mentioned if yours is micro groove or Ballard type rifling ? That is going to be a hard act to follow for any other bullets. Yep it’s a micro groove. The .359 cast came in the mail today so I am going to load a few with the 296 and see what happens. Do you think the 296 will push that coated cast bullet a little too fast? That’s my only concern. If so I might not if you up with the 2400.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 14:59:59 GMT -7
Not knowing anything about the alloy hardness used in your new bullets or the type of coating I really don't know what to expect. I can say that my rifle shoots well with very light loads but shows a distinct preference for lighter weight bullets around 125gn with light loads. My younger girls like that type of load. The Lee 125 RF works good for that type of load in my rifle.
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Post by 4given on Apr 11, 2020 15:54:47 GMT -7
Dan the bullets are BHN 18 and Hi- Tech coated I figure they will be running in the 1800 FPS+ neighborhood.
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 11, 2020 17:19:58 GMT -7
The thickness of the coating will have some bearing but from what I now know it sounds like a go to me.
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Post by 4given on Apr 12, 2020 17:07:52 GMT -7
Happy Resurrection Day! Well, I snuck out to the range after video church today. Our church up in in the mountains at Cascade, Idaho live streamed a nice sunrise service from the boat ramp at Lake Cascade this morning at 7:00 AM. We have a cabin up there. Then the church we attend here in the Treasure Valley had a live stream service at 10:00 so we were blessed to catch that one too! I will be so glad when we can all meet and fellowship in person again! Anyway, I tested the .359 cast coated using both 2400 and 296. Not good. With 2400 I could barely keep them on an 8 x 11 inch piece of paper at 50 yards. The 296 was better but still 3" or so. Oh well. For now I have given up on cast for this rifle. Thankfully I can use the cast bullets I bought in my handguns. I ordered some Zero .357dia 158gr JSP to try. They are inexpensive, jacketed and have a pretty good reputation. Some guys even use it for a hunting bullet I'm told. I really need an inexpensive bullet for practice and plinking. This will probably do the trick. I shot a pretty decent 1" or so 50 yard group with Federal AE 158 gr JSP factory ammo yesterday so I am reasonably sure the Zero bullets will work OK. Thanks for the advice brothers! I will let you know how it goes once I test the Zero bullets. Here is a picture of today's testing. I will identify each target: Top Row from left to right: 158gr FP/XTP 16.5gr 296; 158gr FP/XTP 16.5gr 296; 158 gr .359 cast coated 14.8 gr 2400 (only on round hit paper in lower left hand corner) Bottom Row left to right: 158gr FP/XTP 16.5gr 296; 158 gr .359 cast coated 16.5gr 296; 158 gr .359 cast coated 14.8 gr 2400 (managed to get all three on paper) Picture below: 50 yard groups from yesterday with Federal American Eagle 158gr JSP factory loading and Hornady 140gr XTP over Longshot
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Post by 4given on Apr 15, 2020 12:33:11 GMT -7
Guys, I think I may have figured out the problem with the cast bullets in this rifle. My turret press is set up with a Lee 4 die set. In the 4th station there is the Carbide Lee Factory Crimp die. I forgot that the Carbide Lee Factory Crimp Die incorporates a final carbide sizing die to help prevent chambering issues. I'm thinking it is re-sizing my cast bullet when it passes through. I'm loading up some more test loads and will use a regular seating die to crimp. that might be the answer! We will see ...
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 15, 2020 16:52:23 GMT -7
I have had that problem with the Lee FCD. If the cartridge enters the die hard there is sizing going on. The FCD was made for jacketed bullet diameters so running larger diameter cast bullets can be a problem.
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Post by 4given on Apr 16, 2020 7:52:55 GMT -7
I've got some new test loads ready so I hope to get out to the range after work tonight. I'll let you know how things turn out.
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Post by missionary on Apr 16, 2020 8:03:50 GMT -7
Now that changes the ball game all over. Had the same problem with my Lee 38Special dies down here My old Colt did fine tight barrel. The S&W was throwing the same load all over.
We have been watching services from our home church on Sunday morning as they are no longer meeting regularly. Does the heart good.
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Post by 4given on Apr 17, 2020 8:07:23 GMT -7
Well brothers, it didn't make any difference. Still all over the place with the cast bullets as you can see in the picture below. I tried the .359 bullet over 2400 and AA #5 with a roll crimp and no post sizing with the Lee FCD. The good news is that the new can of 296 powder I bought for this rifle works just as well as the old can of h-110 with the Hornady FP/XTP 158gr. Check out the nice 50 yard 3 shot group!
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Post by Bullshop on Apr 17, 2020 13:24:34 GMT -7
That settles it then. I know what I would use.
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Post by missionary on Apr 17, 2020 15:34:32 GMT -7
What I would try is to take a fired case from that 296 load and measure the expanded neck both inside and out side before resizing. Take one of those .359 slugs and see how much wiggle it has going into that fired neck. Take one of those .359 cast and put the two ends into vice both ends in contact and slowly squeeze that slug to increase diameter to .360-.361. You want to expand it until you have to push it into the case with effort. I will not be surprised to read it would slip a .361 into the case with little or no pushing. I did this simple "procedure" and found .361+ would be max for our MarrrLin.
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Post by 4given on Apr 17, 2020 15:34:40 GMT -7
That settles it then. I know what I would use. Yep! Loading up a bunch of them now!
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Post by 4given on Apr 17, 2020 15:39:32 GMT -7
What I would try is to take a fired case from that 296 load and measure the expanded neck both inside and out side before resizing. Take one of those .359 slugs and see how much wiggle it has going into that fired neck. Take one of those .359 cast and put the two ends into vice both ends in contact and slowly squeeze that slug to increase diameter to .360-.361. You want to expand it until you have to push it into the case with effort. I will not be surprised to read it would slip a .361 into the case with little or no pushing. I did this simple "procedure" and found .361+ would be max for our MarrrLin. That's a good idea! I might give that a try if I decide to try cast bullets again. I ordered 1000 Zero 158gr JSP so they will probably fill the role that the cast bullets would have played had they worked.
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Post by 4given on Apr 27, 2020 10:17:11 GMT -7
I did some load testing this weekend with Marlin 1894CS and the Zero 158gr JSP bullet using 296 & 2400 powder at 50 yards. Things went well. While I got decent groups all the way around, the best 2 came from maximum charges of 2400. The best 50 yard group came from using 14.9 gr 2400, CCI 500 primer and Starline brass with a heavy crimp. This is the max load according to the Lyman #48 manual. Below are pictures of the 2 best groups. Between these and the FP/XTP bullets, I am very pleased. So much so that I am done testing and have installed the Williams Fool Proof receiver sight along with a Williams Firesight red fiber optic front sight. Now am going to have someone do an action job to slick it up and smooth it out. I hear this can really make a difference. I am going to talk to a friend of mine who is a retired writer for a Cowboy Action Shooting magazine and find out who is the “guy” to take it to locally.
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Post by missionary on Apr 27, 2020 15:18:17 GMT -7
Good afternoon Brother I would guess your 2400 load is generating enough kick on the slug base to sack it hard enough that it is expanding the base and the nose (some all this slump) to fill the groove and get a good grip on the on the rifling. It works just like standing a bullet nose down on a piece of flat steel and wacking the base squarely with a hammer. I would be shooting that load a lot with those bullets.
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Post by 4given on Apr 27, 2020 15:40:40 GMT -7
Good afternoon Brother I would guess your 2400 load is generating enough kick on the slug base to sack it hard enough that it is expanding the base and the nose (some all this slump) to fill the groove and get a good grip on the on the rifling. It works just like standing a bullet nose down on a piece of flat steel and wacking the base squarely with a hammer. I would be shooting that load a lot with those bullets. Hi brother Mike! Yep I think you are right! That's the load I will be using! Now to go sight in the rifle with the new sights!
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Post by missionary on Apr 28, 2020 4:34:46 GMT -7
It does the heart good to see things work out !
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